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AMD announces open source ray tracing at GDC *Interview update*

Notional
3 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

That does not change the end result, we should have better running games overall. Somewhat high refresh at 4K for a 1080ti should be the minimum and 1080p should be easy for mid range cards and 1440p should be easy for old high end or mid to high end of current gen. Just like games like doom.

 

 

Cost to release, it all depends on how much time those optimizations take.  Engine developers have that to look at too.  Over optimization is not worth it when new faster tech comes out on a regular basis.

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6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I know, that was my point ;).

 

Tech demos are just that, 3 years is shorter than the time you see technology shown off fully implemented in to games, I'd say 5 is more realistic and even then it's dependent on hardware improving at a fast enough rate that 2 generations is more than 4 times that performance. 1 Titan V doesn't equal 4 Titan X Maxwells so it's already failed to meet that growth target, it's only 2.

 

We won't see that Star Wars tech demo level of detail in games in 3 years, won't happen.

 

Oh yeah that definitely will not happen, but with today's game details with ray tracing no problem at all.  Gotta start somewhere :)

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42 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

 

Cost to release, it all depends on how much time those optimizations take.  Engine developers have that to look at too.  Over optimization is not worth it when new faster tech comes out on a regular basis.

I know they're not not doing it because they're too lazy but rather because they are not paid to. It remains that how well your game runs affects user experience, and taking the time to learn how to optimize more will be useful to meet targets afterwards while still catering to the cash appeal by allowing more players to come and play. I am on the fence to buy AC origins while it's on sale, but I'm not currently doing it because I'm not sure it'll run well enough on my setup.

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3 hours ago, AresKrieger said:

Either way we've been down this path before and Nvidia will likely win out due to competent marketing strategy.

AKA throwing free software, engineers, and buckets of cash at developers

I used to be quite active here.

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6 minutes ago, Kobathor said:

AKA throwing free software, engineers, and buckets of cash at developers

It does work though, I wouldn't turn down all of the above.

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Does anyone have any confirmation that this won't work with DX12's raytracing?

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2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It does work though, I wouldn't turn down all of the above.

Exactly, which is why it works. Money develops games, not integrity. People will buy the game whether your studio has integrity or not.

I used to be quite active here.

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Really Rad news this week. 

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15 minutes ago, Kobathor said:

Exactly, which is why it works. Money develops games, not integrity. People will buy the game whether your studio has integrity or not.

I missed the bit where using tools that makes your products better cheaper means you lack integrity?

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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7 hours ago, Notional said:

I kinda agree, but I think that both DirectX 12 and Vulkan are somewhat equal, as in none of them are particularly popular. TressFX is absolutely superior to HairWorks (see Rise of the Tomb Raider for instance), but alas, money speaks and as such GameWorks is implemented more.

 

That is the big issue here: NVidia will put a lot of resources behind their GameWorks middleware, and it will certainly result in a higher adoption rate. Then again, requiring dedicated hardware does make it somewhat pointless for the time being.

 

In the end, it is up to us consumers to vote with out wallets, like we did with Battlefront 2 and Mass Effect Andromeda (huh, both EA, how about that?). Do the same here.

Well I mean, Nvidia still has the upper hand in terms of the gpus sold to gamers. Go on pcpp for instance and I can guarantee you that you wont see more than 1/5 of the builds there with dedicated amd graphics and thats being generous.

I mean I sure dont like Nvidia's policies of making everything they do proprietary but they still have the upperhand in the gpu market over AMD enough for them to not worry about AMD for now and keep pushing dumb things like this. And voting with our wallet when there is real competition. I dont think AMD is competing with Nvidia as of now on the gpu side of things. Nvidia remains the company that pushes the next strongest card for gaming every year which usually end up being the only cards being able to tackle the most demanding of games

Cpu:i5-4690k Gpu:r9 280x with some other things

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2 hours ago, Razor01 said:

That demo looks so bad imo. I think they focused too much on the reflections rather than combining that with an aesthetically appealing demo

Cpu:i5-4690k Gpu:r9 280x with some other things

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7 hours ago, Razor01 said:

The whole open source, or open standard vs.  Its all BS, open source and standards only work if companies that support those standards actually do the work to stay competitive.  Otherwise they die. 

Exactly. Now look at the drivers maturity for AMD v nVidia on linux...

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10 minutes ago, Blackie Sheen said:

I dont think AMD is competing with Nvidia as of now on the gpu side of things. Nvidia remains the company that pushes the next strongest card for gaming every year which usually end up being the only cards being able to tackle the most demanding of games

The only real difference is that NVidia has the halo product(s). AMD is fully competitive up to (and including) the 1080 with Vega 64. So it's only when you go to 1080ti, that NVidia has the performance advantage. On tech sites like this, where the users are enthusiasts, and thus spend more time and money on hardware, you might see a lot of 1080ti's and similar high end hardware. But that is completely skewed compared to the average gamer. They usually don't make it past the x60/x70 series from Nvidia anyways.

 

So I think AMD is generally quite competitive, but of course, the current crypto currency debacle have made prices fracked.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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14 minutes ago, Blackie Sheen said:

That demo looks so bad imo. I think they focused too much on the reflections rather than combining that with an aesthetically appealing demo

Well the point being we get all those nice affects with Raytracing without new artwork.  At 4k, this demo without ray tracing runs at 30fps, on current hardware.

 

Yeah I agree I am not happy with the animation around the joints.

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AMD REALLY needs to work with developers to run this feature successfully. They can make whatever they'd like, but at the end of the day they have a product that is only as good as it's marketed. GameWorks has gotten a small market share due to Nvidia sending software engineers to help out with development, AMD needs to do the same. 

 

Alien: Isolation got them a lot of attention before, during, and after release; they need to repeat this several more times. Even if Nvidia runs the game better, just getting your name out there is better than sitting back. 

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5 minutes ago, Notional said:

The only real difference is that NVidia has the halo product(s). AMD is fully competitive up to (and including) the 1080 with Vega 64.

That might be the case right now and hopefully it will never cease to be the case, but remember until the Vega was released there were huge gaps between Nvidias top 3 cards and anything AMD had to offer for almost a year.  Even the 1070 which has been around for 1.5 years still performs amiably against some of the vega's.  

 

In my opinion AMD really need to find their strengths again and push those.  I don't believe raytracing was Nvidia "leading the way" or anything like that, but when everything nvidia does AMD tries to counter with open source and it leaves them sinking a whole heap of resources into something that barely pays off.

 

 

 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Just now, mr moose said:

That might be the case right now and hopefully it will never cease to be the case, but remember until the Vega was released there were huge gaps between Nvidias top 3 cards and anything AMD had to offer for almost a year.  Even the 1070 which has been around for 1.5 years still performs amiably against some of the vega's.  

 

In my opinion AMD really need to find their strengths again and push those.  I don't believe raytracing was Nvidia "leading the way" or anything like that, but when everything nvidia does AMD tries to counter with open source and it leaves them sinking a whole heap of resources into something that barely pays off.

Indeed, and if NVidia will release a new architecture (ampere?) this summer for release with the Acer Predator 27" HDR monitor (coming April/May), and some games with ray tracing, then it will be the same situation all over again. After all, Navi isn't scheduled until 2019, and probably not until Q2 or Q3. Vega 7nm is only pro cards after all.

 

Raja is gone, and with the massive success of Ryzen (and hopefully EPYC down the line) + GPU's selling out to miners, I hope AMD will have the R&D funding to get back into the high end game soon. At least their drivers are really good. Now we just need the hardware to catch up. I hope Navi will achieve that.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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9 minutes ago, Notional said:

Indeed, and if NVidia will release a new architecture (ampere?) this summer for release with the Acer Predator 27" HDR monitor (coming April/May), and some games with ray tracing, then it will be the same situation all over again. After all, Navi isn't scheduled until 2019, and probably not until Q2 or Q3. Vega 7nm is only pro cards after all.

 

Raja is gone, and with the massive success of Ryzen (and hopefully EPYC down the line) + GPU's selling out to miners, I hope AMD will have the R&D funding to get back into the high end game soon. At least their drivers are really good. Now we just need the hardware to catch up. I hope Navi will achieve that.

 

 

They still need to up their R&D on CPU side too.  And if its profitable now, they need to keep it that way and to make sure they can compete with Intel on equal footing, they can't wait a decade for a brand new architecture, cause I doubt we will see Intel sit still now.  If I was in their shoes, keep going on the CPU to make sure they have enough coming in that will sustain the CPU division fully then when that is accomplished any extra money goes to GPU.  Otherwise everything they have done so far for the CPU division will be at risk. 

 

I doubt Navi will achieve parity with what ever nV has at that time.  And if they don't reach parity there, expect it to be another 2 gens after.  They need to play the long game just like they did with CPU's.

 

Raja going was a really bad move, he was the reason ATi even become competitive with nV and then he was the lead for GNC initially first year or two.  GCN was a good architecture, its just been to there for too long.

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5 minutes ago, Notional said:

Indeed, and if NVidia will release a new architecture (ampere?) this summer for release with the Acer Predator 27" HDR monitor (coming April/May), and some games with ray tracing, then it will be the same situation all over again. After all, Navi isn't scheduled until 2019, and probably not until Q2 or Q3. Vega 7nm is only pro cards after all.

 

Raja is gone, and with the massive success of Ryzen (and hopefully EPYC down the line) + GPU's selling out to miners, I hope AMD will have the R&D funding to get back into the high end game soon. At least their drivers are really good. Now we just need the hardware to catch up. I hope Navi will achieve that.

 

I just don't want to see this continue, I can't think about how much they sunk into mantle, but if they don't get Vulcan and now RadeOn  into the hands of game devs then it is wasted money too.    I really hope Navi turns out to be something. 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 minute ago, Razor01 said:

 

 

They still need to up their R&D on CPU side too.  And if its profitable now, they need to keep it that way and to make sure they can compete with Intel on equal footing, they can't wait a decade for a brand new architecture, cause I doubt we will see Intel sit still now.  If I was in their shoes, keep going on the CPU to make sure they have enough coming in that will sustain the CPU division fully then when that is accomplished any extra money goes to GPU.  Otherwise everything they have done so far for the CPU division will be at risk. 

 

I doubt Navi will achieve parity with what ever nV has at that time.  And if they don't reach parity there, expect it to be another 2 gens after.  They need to play the long game just like they did with CPU's.

If the release of Ryzen wasn't a wake up call to Intel then nothing is.  The baffling half arsed release of X299 and moving forward the coffee lake release was a tell tale sign that they are not as far in front with their R+D as some of us thought.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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2 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

They still need to up their R&D on CPU side too.  And if its profitable now, they need to keep it that way and to make sure they can compete with Intel on equal footing, they can't wait a decade for a brand new architecture, cause I doubt we will see Intel sit still now.  If I was in their shoes, keep going on the CPU to make sure they have enough coming in that will sustain the CPU division fully then when that is accomplished any extra money goes to GPU.  Otherwise everything they have done so far for the CPU division will be at risk. 

 

I doubt Navi will achieve parity with what ever nV has at that time.  And if they don't reach parity there, expect it to be another 2 gens after.  They need to play the long game just like they did with CPU's.

AMD is doing great on the CPU side now. Sure the IPC isn't identical to Intel's, but it doesn't have to either, when AMD has other upsides. The high end clock frequency seems to be similar with Ryzen 2000 series now. Zen 2 is out next year, so they aren't resting on their laurels. But honestly, with ALL RadeOn cards being sold to miners and such, I doubt RTG is lacking funding per se.

 

We shall see. It will certainly be difficult, but never impossible.

Just now, mr moose said:

I just don't want to see this continue, I can't think about how much they sunk into mantle, but if they don't get Vulcan and now RadeOn  into the hands of game devs then it is wasted money too.    I really hope Navi turns out to be something. 

Agreed. I do think AMD achieved what they wanted with mantle: Steer the industry in a direction that favours AMD more than before. But for devs to take RTG seriously, they need not only market share, but specifically high end market share.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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Just now, mr moose said:

If the release of Ryzen wasn't a wake up call to Intel then nothing is.  The baffling half arsed release of X299 and moving forward the coffee lake release was a tell tale sign that they are not as far in front with their R+D as some of us thought.

I think Intel was caught off guard, they didn't expect AMD to get that close, and they had nothing in the pipeline to counter Zen.

 

The thing is, AMD has ONE CPU team, Intel has MANY CPU teams, that is why we saw how fast they were able to get out Kaby Lake, then Coffee lake on 14nm ++, Coffee Lake was a 10 nm chip, but it coming out in 14nm tells us that they had a back up plan for Coffee lake, which tells us they have more than one team.  So they also did Coffee lake 10nm, that's two teams we know of, then the next gen after Coffee lake would be in the works too, that is 3 teams.

 

R&D in terms of one gen of chips, might not different, but when you factor in all three teams yeah it a big advantage.

 

 

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