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AMD announces open source ray tracing at GDC *Interview update*

Notional

Ray tracing for the masses:

 

A couple of days ago, NVidia announced the proprietary closed source ray tracing tech, called RTX, as part of their black boxed anti competitive middleware, called GameWorks. RTX requires dedicated hardware, and thus makes all current GPU's (sans Titan V?) obsolete. NVidia's tech demo used 4 x Titan V's to render, but don't worry, you get 25% rebate, so it only costs 9000$ to run.

 

Today at GDC, AMD announced an open source alternative called RadeOn Rays (really AMD?). Unlike NVidia's proprietary tech, RadeOn rays are open source, vendor agnostic, and does not require dedicated hardware to work. In other words, it's actually relevant and useful

 

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Today at GDC, AMD announced widened support for Radeon Rays with Unity Lightmapper. Its open-source, high efficiency, high performance GPU-accelerated ray tracing software helps game developers to achieve higher visual quality and stunningly photorealistic 3D images in real-time. Radeon ProRender now supports real-time GPU acceleration of ray tracing techniques mixed with traditional rasterization-based rendering, to combine the value of ray tracing with the interactivity of rasterization.

For gaming, ray tracing is in its early stages. For professional applications, however, real-time ray tracing is a well-established rendering technique.

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As stated, gaming implementation of RadeOn rays are still in its infancy. RTX, on the other hand, will launch with Metro: Exodus, but it's not like you can use it anyways.

 

You can see a 2016 video about how it works here:

 

Update:

 

Golem.de has interviewed (well asked a few questions to) AMD at GDC. *Translated from German*

 

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Already in the next few months it can be expected that players with very powerful computers in the graphics menu under "Ultra" could tick a box with "Raytracing". All this applies (for the time being) only to PCs. On consoles - AMD supplies both Sony with the Playstation 4 as well as Microsoft with the Xbox One with processors - is the situation still unclear, on inquiries of Golem.de on the topic AMD did not want to answer, because for it the platform operators are responsible.

I initially thought RadeOn ray tracing would be a couple of years away, but it seems we will see it in games this year already.


 

Personal opinion:

Throughout gaming history, graphics fidelity has been increased mostly via adding polygons to 3D models and increasing texture resolution. As that has achieved great results, a focus on tesselation and shadows has been made. Today light and shadow is the single most important thing used, to increase graphical fidelity. Ray tracing, the technology of lighting up something via rays of light, that bounced off surfaces (like real light in the real world) will be the next huge technology to forward the gaming world. But it is very taxing.

Personally, I am very interested in this tech going forward, but as always, I despise any proprietary black boxed tech, that makes adoption, performance and competition worse for us consumers.


 

Sources:

https://www.techpowerup.com/242615/amd-announces-radeon-rays-and-radeon-gpu-profiler-1-2-at-gdc-2018

https://www.golem.de/news/computergrafik-amd-erwartet-raytracing-bei-ultra-settings-im-grafikmenue-1803-133464.html (German)

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The unfortunate truth about open source is that it doesn't guarantee widespread adoption. FreeSync took off surprisingly well, but the echos of Vulkan have died down quite a bit. Also, GPUOpen rendering techniques like TressFX are far less common than HairWorks, despite all its merits. I mean, how many games even use GPUOpen?

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that AMD's solution takes the limelight away from Nvidia's solution. But there's more to being successful than being open source.

 

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I swear, AMD's been milking the Radeon name since they acquired ATI. I've seen it on GPUs, SSDs, RAM, and now Ray tracking?

 

Next thing you know, they're gonna have refrigerators under the Radeon branding.

 

In all seriousness, I'm interested in seeing just how good of a thing this whole ray tracking business turns out to be. Also, if RTX requires dedicated hardware, what's stopping companies from making like a PCIe add-in card to process it? Or does it have to be on the same physical PCB as the GPU?

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Just now, Frankenburger said:

The unfortunate truth about open source is that it doesn't guarantee widespread adoption. FreeSync took off surprisingly well, but the echos of Vulkan have died down quite a bit. Also, renders like TressFX are far less common than HairWorks, despite all its merits.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that AMD's solution takes the limelight away from Nvidia's solution. But there's more to being successful than being open source.

Hardware is a lot easier to adopt than software.

Also, Nvidia's Ray Tracing stuff piggy backs off of DX12. That is probably what's going to succeed.

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1 minute ago, Frankenburger said:

The unfortunate truth about open source is that it doesn't guarantee widespread adoption. FreeSync took off surprisingly well, but the echos of Vulkan have died down quite a bit. Also, GPU Open rendering techniques like TressFX are far less common than HairWorks, despite all its merits. I mean, how many games even use GPU Open?

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that AMD's solution takes the limelight away from Nvidia's solution. But there's more to being successful than being open source.

Are you kidding me? Vulkan is a brand new API so it takes time for devs to actually learn something new and not only to use it properly. I would call DX12 more dead as all the cool features demoed have yet to be implemented? Remember AMD/Nvidia SLI or CF? Or GPU memory stacking? 

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 minute ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Also, Nvidia's Ray Tracing stuff piggy backs off of DX12. That is probably what's going to succeed.

Agreed. Considering that Ray Tracing is a part of the DX12 API, we can only hope that it will just be a matter of time for developers to write their own Ray Tracing (or at least rasterization) algorithm that makes Nvidia's Ray Tracing a thing of the past.

 

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Unless AMD's implementation works on every GPU, I feel this is just paying lip service to the FOSS community as a PR move.

 

8 minutes ago, Frankenburger said:

The unfortunate truth about open source is that it doesn't guarantee widespread adoption. FreeSync took off surprisingly well, but the echos of Vulkan have died down quite a bit. Also, GPUOpen rendering techniques like TressFX are far less common than HairWorks, despite all its merits. I mean, how many games even use GPUOpen?

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that AMD's solution takes the limelight away from Nvidia's solution. But there's more to being successful than being open source.

standards.png

Edited by M.Yurizaki
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4 minutes ago, Frankenburger said:

The unfortunate truth about open source is that it doesn't guarantee widespread adoption. FreeSync took off surprisingly well, but the echos of Vulkan have died down quite a bit. Also, GPUOpen rendering techniques like TressFX are far less common than HairWorks, despite all its merits. I mean, how many games even use GPUOpen?

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that AMD's solution takes the limelight away from Nvidia's solution. But there's more to being successful than being open source.

I kinda agree, but I think that both DirectX 12 and Vulkan are somewhat equal, as in none of them are particularly popular. TressFX is absolutely superior to HairWorks (see Rise of the Tomb Raider for instance), but alas, money speaks and as such GameWorks is implemented more.

 

That is the big issue here: NVidia will put a lot of resources behind their GameWorks middleware, and it will certainly result in a higher adoption rate. Then again, requiring dedicated hardware does make it somewhat pointless for the time being.

 

In the end, it is up to us consumers to vote with out wallets, like we did with Battlefront 2 and Mass Effect Andromeda (huh, both EA, how about that?). Do the same here.

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5 minutes ago, Frankenburger said:

The unfortunate truth about open source is that it doesn't guarantee widespread adoption. FreeSync took off surprisingly well, but the echos of Vulkan have died down quite a bit.

Freesync is a technology for variable refresh rate.

Vulkan is a graphics API. Basically a language, a specification and a set of rules.

 

It doesn't really make sense to call them open source or closed source. That terminology is for code.

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4 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Freesync is a technology for variable refresh rate.

Vulkan is a graphics API. Basically a language, a specification and a set of rules.

 

It doesn't really make sense to call them open source or closed source. That terminology is for code.

While technically true, people use "Open source" as lexicon for any open standard. If source code is the blueprint for programs, than any same sort of blueprint like schematics or ICDs can be considered the "source."

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6 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Freesync is a technology for variable refresh rate.

Vulkan is a graphics API. Basically a language, a specification and a set of rules.

 

It doesn't really make sense to call them open source or closed source. That terminology is for code.

Sorry. Allow me to rephrase that - FreeSync is an open standard. Meanwhile, AMD has open source drivers for Vulkan.

 

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9 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Unless AMD's implementation works on every GPU, I feel this is just paying lip service to the FOSS community as a PR move.

 

standards.png

 

 

And if the performance isn't enough for real time, I mean, anything less than 30 FPS, kinda odd they are putting this with Radeon Pro and only a car engine right?  Why not show with multiple objects like a room in a game, doesn't need to be a full game, just one room multiple light sources showing acceptable frame rates on a Vega card.

 

The reason why RTX will take off and AMD would be left holding themselves, is because RTX will be usable on next gen hardware from nV.  Current hardware can do ray tracing, even MS stated that DXR, but not with acceptable frame rates. 

 

The whole open source, or open standard vs.  Its all BS, open source and standards only work if companies that support those standards actually do the work to stay competitive.  Otherwise they die. 

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3 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

The whole open source, or open standard vs.  Its all BS, open source and standards only work if companies that support those standards actually do the work to stay competitive.  Otherwise they die. 

Exactly.

 

Like the only reason why DirectX took off as the dominant API after 9.0c is because Khronos failed to maintain OpenGL as much as those who were proponents of it liked. I mean, when John Carmack, a huge proponent of FOSS, goes to a proprietary API as the primary rendering path for one of his engines, you know someone screwed up.

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I still don't understand why this is the year where raytracing is suddenly becoming "the next big thing" xD There have been totally functional tech demos for literally a decade now of how small-scale raytracing could be used to augment parts of a game and I can't think of a single game that's implimented it.

 

Hardware is nowhere near the point where you can 100% raytrace Crysis 3 at even 720p, so why is there suddenly this big push for it?

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25 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Next thing you know, they're gonna have refrigerators under the Radeon branding.

Nah, Radeon Gas Furnaces.

 

The unfortunate side-effect being that it sounds a bit too much like Radon.

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12 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

I still don't understand why this is the year where raytracing is suddenly becoming "the next big thing" xD There have been totally functional tech demos for literally a decade now of how small-scale raytracing could be used to augment parts of a game and I can't think of a single game that's implimented it.

 

Hardware is nowhere near the point where you can 100% raytrace Crysis 3 at even 720p, so why is there suddenly this big push for it?

What I think any of today's games can have raytracing on next gen hardware from nV, if implemented.

 

Common practices in the industry since the beginning.  Any time new hardware features are implemented, they must be able to run current software just as before, the new features are there to make things even better.  If those new features aren't fully usable by majority of the market, then those features die out or are slow to adopt.

 

Dynamic branching is a good example of this.  The first hardware capable of doing dynamic branching were DX9 b and c (and OpenGL version of that time too, but it came out much later those DX versions).  The hardware that could do them started with the x8xx and 6x00 series.  But they were quite inefficient at them.  It wasn't till AMD had their x18xx could it be done decently but it didn't have the shader performance to use it well, so till the 19xx series came out developers weren't paying attention to it.  Then 6 months after the 1900 series came out nV had the g80.  We finally started to see game engines and games another 6 months after the g80 utilize dynamic branching extensively for lighting.

 

Development always goes by what is usable on hardware that gamers can buy. 

 

PCI add on cards won't work well, because they will be hit by the same limitations of multiple GPU's now. 

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22 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

What I think any of today's games can have raytracing on next gen hardware from nV, if implemented.

 

Common practices in the industry since the beginning.  Any time new hardware features are implemented, they must be able to run current software just as before, the new features are there to make things even better.  If those new features aren't fully usable by majority of the market, then those features die out or are slow to adopt.

 

Dynamic branching is a good example of this.  The first hardware capable of doing dynamic branching were DX9 b and c (and OpenGL version of that time too, but it came out much later those DX versions).  The hardware that could do them started with the x8xx and 6x00 series.  But they were quite inefficient at them.  It wasn't till AMD had their x18xx could it be done decently but it didn't have the shader performance to use it well, so till the 19xx series came out developers weren't paying attention to it.  Then 6 months after the 1900 series came out nV had the g80.  We finally started to see game engines and games another 6 months after the g80 utilize dynamic branching extensively for lighting.

 

Development always goes by what is usable on hardware that gamers can buy. 

 

PCI add on cards won't work well, because they will be hit by the same limitations of multiple GPU's now. 

...all existing graphics cards have been able to do raytracing for literally decades... It's used to do shadows for complex lighting in Unreal Tournament and Cryengine and in a few other places.

 

And it's not like there's some magical new hardware acceleration that can be done for it. The closest thing to "hardware acceleration" is what Nvidia has, using AI to guesstimate which rays are important to emit and which ones you can just ignore all of the calculations for. That's why it only works on Volta, because it's using the tensor cores to run the neural net.

 

But even with the "10x" speed improvement Microsoft and Nvidia are claiming over traditional techniques, that's still nowhere near enough to run a complex scene at a decent resolution, with enough ray bounces and rays per pixel to be meaningfully useful...

 

These APIs just give devs easy access to use it for parts of a scene (like the holo sights on your gun for example). And they've had the ability to do that for years, and never bothered!

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1 hour ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

I swear, AMD's been milking the Radeon name since they acquired ATI. I've seen it on GPUs, SSDs, RAM, and now Ray tracking?

 

Next thing you know, they're gonna have refrigerators under the Radeon branding.

 

In all seriousness, I'm interested in seeing just how good of a thing this whole ray tracking business turns out to be. Also, if RTX requires dedicated hardware, what's stopping companies from making like a PCIe add-in card to process it? Or does it have to be on the same physical PCB as the GPU?

I might actually buy a Radeon branded refrigerator, though I have a bad feeling someone would find a way to mine crypto currency on it.

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39 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

I still don't understand why this is the year where raytracing is suddenly becoming "the next big thing" xD There have been totally functional tech demos for literally a decade now of how small-scale raytracing could be used to augment parts of a game and I can't think of a single game that's implimented it.

 

Hardware is nowhere near the point where you can 100% raytrace Crysis 3 at even 720p, so why is there suddenly this big push for it?

It's probably Nvidia trying to bury amd by the image. Same reason they have GPP and that they are pushing for once again a terrible tech for us.

I think the only change is that Nvidia is using AI for denoising to get back a bit of perf because they can't produce a decent image noise-wise. But their denoising tech do have some serious issues of overblurring sometimes.

They probably want to push it since the AI community is CUDA biased and they want to push that to lock out AMD from that.

As a response to give a sensible alternative not to get screwed once again, AMD presents it's new standard to be as perfect as possible for widespread adoption (hence OPENCL and Vulkan).

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1 minute ago, laminutederire said:

they are pushing for once again a terrible tech for us.

Eh it seems to work fine, not liking its closed source nature is all well and fine but realistically Nvidia often offers the higher quality option on the market. Either way we've been down this path before and Nvidia will likely win out due to competent marketing strategy. The only issue I have with Nvidia on this venture is their partnership with microsoft in an attempt to make dx12 (and by extention windows 10) relevant.

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/631048-psu-tier-list-updated/ Tier Breakdown (My understanding)--1 Godly, 2 Great, 3 Good, 4 Average, 5 Meh, 6 Bad, 7 Awful

 

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Ultimately what's AMD's strategy with helping developers, the actual customers of this tech? If it's just "here's an open source implementation of a ray tracing algorithm, have fun!" then developers are just going to laugh and look elsewhere. But if AMD is going to make a serious push to support developers integrate this into their games, then they have a chance at this becoming a thing.

 

Also professional support often tends to be way more preferable than community support. Otherwise Red Hat would've been buried by CentOS for any serious application.

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1 hour ago, Razor01 said:

And if the performance isn't enough for real time, I mean, anything less than 30 FPS, kinda odd they are putting this with Radeon Pro and only a car engine right?  Why not show with multiple objects like a room in a game, doesn't need to be a full game, just one room multiple light sources showing acceptable frame rates on a Vega card.

Both AMD's and Nvidia's only work on their pro series of cards so the only thing about that you can say is Nvidia's tech demo is more impressive, though if you enlist ILM and throw a bunch of top end hardware at it that no one is going to have then of course you tech demo is going to be amazing.

 

It's about as useful as Square Enix's Witches Cry tech demo that ran on equally insane hardware for the time that still isn't even close to possible on even two GPUs now. I would like to see that tech demo re-done with either AMD's or Nvidia's raytracing tech just so see how much better it is.

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6 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Ultimately what's AMD's strategy with helping developers, the actual customers of this tech? If it's just "here's an open source implementation of a ray tracing algorithm, have fun!" then developers are just going to laugh and look elsewhere. But if AMD is going to make a serious push to support developers integrate this into their games, then they have a chance at this becoming a thing.

 

Also professional support often tends to be way more preferable than community support. Otherwise Red Hat would've been buried by CentOS for any serious application.

That's exactly what AMD is doing here, though. It's first and foremost for pro rendering, so 3D images and animation. Proper game tech for Vulkan will be out later.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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