[updated] Telegram is now banned in Russia. Government organisation blocks itself in attempts to block Telegram. [NEW] It is not about surveillance!

[asus killer]

i'm gonna row against the tide on this one. We cannot have a tool that we all know is used by this idiots. And as i understand all they had to do was to store the data for 6 months, not a unreasonable request to be made for a app that is recognized by themselves, by many countries and confirmed by IS itself to be the "go to" way to plan this acts. All this makes the request for the encryption key also reasonable in my view.

It's not some random, unprovoked act against poor innocent Telegram. If they abuse their powers it's another story, but if that were the case they would have done it sooner, there is a cause and consequence here.

There is a saying "ones liberties stop were others liberties start". 

The companies should find a way to stop terrorists using it's app or face this kind of scrutiny. As for everyone that use it for other purposes though luck that you happen to choose the same tool as the terrorists do, pick another way.

 

Quote

Russia targets Telegram app after St Petersburg bombing

Mr Durov has refused to let regulators access encrypted messages on the app.

IS used the app to declare its involvement in the jihadist attack on and around London Bridge in the UK last month.

Telegram has been used by jihadists in France and the Middle East too...

 

The FSB's revelation made no mention of a threat on Friday by Russia's communications regulator Roskomnadzor to block the app over its failure to register Telegram as a disseminator of information in Russia. By registering, the company would have to store the past six months' of users' data in Russia....

 

Mr Durov has complained that the regulator also asked Telegram to hand over encryption keys so they can read users' correspondence to catch jihadists.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40404842

 

 

[Denis Rakhmanov]

14 minutes ago, asus killer said:

The companies should find a way to stop terrorists using it's app or face this kind of scrutiny. As for everyone that use it for other purposes though luck that you happen to choose the same tool as the terrorists do, pick another way.

Let me remind you that Apple refused to unlock the phone belonged to terrorist. And i admire that move, i can be sure that Apple values me as a customer.

 

Terrorists also breath the same air, drive same cars, wear the same clothes. Should we ban all the manufactures that produce any type of tools or goods terrorists use?

 

And telegram actively bans any accounts suspecting in terrorism, so it is not because they don't want to battle terrorist, it is because Telegram as a company values its customers and refuses to give access to private messaging to third parties.

[captain_to_fire]

43 minutes ago, Denis Rakhmanov said:

RosKomNadzor still trying to block telegram. Just can't do it.

Many other services are affected or not working properly.

What about Telegram? Desktop version can't work without proxy settings. Phone version is still working

As someone not living in Russia, can those Telegram blocks by the Kremlin be circumvented by either a VPN and/or changing the DNS resolver like 1.1.1.1 by Cloudflare?

[Denis Rakhmanov]

Just now, captain_to_fire said:

As someone not living in Russia, can those Telegram blocks by the Kremlin be circumvented by either a VPN and/or changing the DNS resolver like 1.1.1.1 by Cloudflare?

As someone living in russia i can say this: yes it can, i use PIA (thanks LTT advertisement for this service) on PC. i also use socks5 proxy provided also by them on my phone and it works great.

Some of my contacts aren't tech savvy and they decided to install telegram today in the middle of blocking. app on phone still works without any additional manipulations.

[hobobobo]

47 minutes ago, Denis Rakhmanov said:

RosKomNadzor still trying to block telegram. Just can't do it.

Many other services are affected or not working properly.

What about Telegram? Desktop version can't work without proxy settings. Phone version is still working

For me its the other way around, desktop works from home and from mobile hotspot but phone version (on the same phone i hotspot) doesnt. Probably coz phone is bb10 and got old telegram version

 

[Denis Rakhmanov]

2 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

Probably coz phone is bb10 and got old telegram version

Maybe. My gf decided to install it today. She doesn't understand technology well. she just installed an app and it works fine.

[hobobobo]

3 minutes ago, Denis Rakhmanov said:

Maybe. My gf decided to install it today. She doesn't understand technology well. she just installed an app and it works fine.

theyve got builtin proxy on both phone and desktop so roskomnadzor gonna have some fun chasing ip adresses. Cant really see it resolving without either side backing off, perhaps Durov gonna be a wanted man soon

[Denis Rakhmanov]

3 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

theyve got builtin proxy on both phone and desktop so roskomnadzor gonna have some fun chasing ip adresses. Cant really see it resolving without either side backing off, perhaps Durov gonna be a wanted man soon

Have you seen that RosKomNadzor even blocked itself?

i'll update main post now.

[hobobobo]

1 minute ago, Denis Rakhmanov said:

Have you seen that RosKomNadzor even blocked itself?

i'll update main post now.

Nah, got no reason to go to their site) but yesterday found myself banned from entering some benchmark site (posted about that stuff in "uk/us warn of russian hacker attacks" thread) and was beyond surprised. Perhaps some authentication service ip got banned or maybe they just dont like russian ips

[Zodiark1593]

Sounds like the Russian Government is interested in playing Internet Whack-A-Mole.

[Denis Rakhmanov]

Added statement by Pavel Durov - owner and founder of telegram.

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, Denis Rakhmanov said:

Let me remind you that Apple refused to unlock the phone belonged to terrorist. And i admire that move, i can be sure that Apple values me as a customer.

 

Terrorists also breath the same air, drive same cars, wear the same clothes. Should we ban all the manufactures that produce any type of tools or goods terrorists use?

 

And telegram actively bans any accounts suspecting in terrorism, so it is not because they don't want to battle terrorist, it is because Telegram as a company values its customers and refuses to give access to private messaging to third parties.

and i also think that was a stupid move from Apple, refusing to help catch a criminal. Telegram refused to record and hand over terrorist conversations that killed people, that's for me just idiotic. It's taking privacy to extremes.

 

Doesn't your car have license plates? can you drive in full privacy mode? you can wear any clothes but don't you have to carry ID and hand it over to any policeman that asks for it?

[Denis Rakhmanov]

Just now, asus killer said:

Telegram refused to record and hand over terrorist conversations that killed people, that's for me just idiotic.

Telegram encription works in a way that even themselves don't have access to conversations. thts the whole their selling point.

[asus killer]

5 hours ago, Denis Rakhmanov said:

To all still interested in this, i updated the topic.

hence the asking of the privacy keys. You're just giving more credit to the Russians. You can't make a gun without serial numbers, you can't sell a car without license plates, etc... even if it would give you more privacy

 

It's the way Telegram operates (or Apples phones like you mentioned) that made authorities ask for the keys, not some random anti privacy conspiracy. Russia is a lawless state ruled by a dictator, but that doesn't mean they aren't right on this one.

[FratStar]

43 minutes ago, asus killer said:

refusing to help catch a criminal

Except, the FBI just like Russia is asking for unmitigated access to their product. You surely understand if their Apple or Telegram break their own encryption the government can easily try to take legal action acquire the code/backdoor/process used to get access.

 

An easy way to handle this could be specify which user they are investigating and working directly with the company, but governments don't like to work that way it's either all or all, but if Telegram refused to decrypt that user's message and hand that specific data over then I'm inclined to agree with you on that point though

[JoseGuya]

43 minutes ago, asus killer said:

hence the asking of the privacy keys. You're just giving more credit to the Russians. You can't make a gun without serial numbers, you can't sell a car without license plates, etc... even if it would give you more privacy

 

It's the way Telegram operates (or Apples phones like you mentioned) that made authorities ask for the keys, not some random anti privacy conspiracy. Russia is a lawless state ruled by a dictator, but that doesn't mean they aren't right on this one.

So you say Russia is governed by a dictator, and then right away want to give more power to that dictator for a little sense of "security"? No wonder the world is going to shit. 

[Denis Rakhmanov]

1 hour ago, FratStar said:

Telegram refused to decrypt that user's message and hand that specific data over then I'm inclined to agree with you on that point though

Telegram developed their encryption in a way that only users engaged in conversation possess encryption keys. Telegram itself can't have access to their logs.

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, FratStar said:

Except, the FBI just like Russia is asking for unmitigated access to their product. You surely understand if their Apple or Telegram break their own encryption the government can easily try to take legal action acquire the code/backdoor/process used to get access.

 

An easy way to handle this could be specify which user they are investigating and working directly with the company, but governments don't like to work that way it's either all or all, but if Telegram refused to decrypt that user's message and hand that specific data over then I'm inclined to agree with you on that point though

like the BBC reported they don't give access and they don't even store the messages, so it's really Telegram that is not collaborating in any way. Things are designed to be a heaven for bad guys, at least as i see it.

But i agree with you if there is a way to just give access to those specific messages and users it would be the best, but if they don't store it. I really just see a problem of how Telegram works, and i really don't buy in the privacy at all cost excuse. I'm all for privacy but not if it becomes a facilitating tool for terrorists to make plans and even worst get away with it.

If it were a phone we wouldn't be having this discussion and no one cries because police have access to phone records.

[FratStar]

35 minutes ago, Denis Rakhmanov said:

Telegram developed their encryption in a way that only users engaged in conversation possess encryption keys. Telegram itself can't have access to their logs.

Forgive me for not being the savviest when it comes to cryptography, but how would the government be able to use the keys in the first place if Telegram doesn't have access? ISPs?

Edited April 17, 2018 by FratStar
Wording I'm dumb

[AshleyAshes]

13 minutes ago, FratStar said:

Forgive me for not being the savviest when it comes to cryptography, but how would the government be able to use the keys in the first place if Telegram has access? ISPs?

"Rebuild your platform so that you do have keys then give them to us."

 

It's one of those 'We don't really care HOW you give us access but if you don't give us access we'll just try to shut you down entirely' things.

[Zodiark1593]

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

like the BBC reported they don't give access and they don't even store the messages, so it's really Telegram that is not collaborating in any way. Things are designed to be a heaven for bad guys, at least as i see it.

But i agree with you if there is a way to just give access to those specific messages and users it would be the best, but if they don't store it. I really just see a problem of how Telegram works, and i really don't buy in the privacy at all cost excuse. I'm all for privacy but not if it becomes a facilitating tool for terrorists to make plans and even worst get away with it.

If it were a phone we wouldn't be having this discussion and no one cries because police have access to phone records.

I disagree. Were I to use a platform where secrecy was the utmost concern, I wouldn't use anything without a guarantee that even the developers of the software can't decrypt it (the encrypted messages) themselves, or else I would simply develop and distribute an app that can do so, or go the slow way of encrypting it on my own platform, and personally tell the recipient the key.

 

Though, I do have to wonder if terrorist groups have any competent software developers themselves?

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

4 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

I do have to wonder if terrorist groups have any competent software developers themselves?

Of course they do.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/01/16/isis-app/

 

Oh, and this :

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-24-7-helpdesk-terror-encryption-hotline-teaches-cybersecurity-1529328

[Guest The Viking]

On 21/03/2018 at 12:43 PM, Denis Rakhmanov said:

AAAAAND IT HAPPEND

Regulatory organisation RosKomNadzor even blocked itself. Telegram still works just fine:

In mother russia, you don't block internet, internet blocks you.

 

the memes were real.

[Zodiark1593]

5 hours ago, Captain Chaos said:

Of course they do.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/01/16/isis-app/

 

Oh, and this :

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-24-7-helpdesk-terror-encryption-hotline-teaches-cybersecurity-1529328

The app itself is interesting. As Android is a relatively open platform, it isn't really possible to police what users decide to develop and install (unless governments wish to license anyone with development tools, though that ship is long gone). Developing the app outside the control of any official corporate entities would prove the ideal solution, as far as keeping secrets go.

 

However, unless some means of verifying the app was in place (either individually, or via central server, with pros and downsides to both), government agencies could tamper with and seed out this app themselves. 

 

As for the Telegram app, any chance Russia would be successful in the extradition of the CEO (or other executives) for prosecution?

[Denis Rakhmanov]

4 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

any chance Russia would be successful in the extradition of the CEO (or other executives) for prosecution?

Interesting question. I hope not. Durov lives in Dubai and i don't think it has extradition policy with Russia.

 

I would think Russian government would try to assassinate him rather than have a trial.