nVidia GeForce Partner Program: Well Intention Marketing or Anti-Competitive

[hobobobo]

2 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

Yeah but I don't think anyone really disagreed with that sentiment it was just unknown, but at the end of it all, it means nothing.  nV feels AMD doesn't compete with them, and they have "asked" well we know what that means, AIB's not put them next to each other, and gaming with their cards is better, so they are the gaming brand.  Its not the crux of the problem, the crux of the problem is AMD is getting pushed out of the gaming market, and the AIB's know it doesn't matter right now and definitely won't matter in the near to mid future.  That is why they signed this contract.

 

I'll tell ya this if you look at launch times even nV's performance in their decks, outside of the rx 480, they don't even mention AMD products.  So the rx 580, they don't even fell like it belongs against a 1060, because its power consumption at stock settings is not in the same league.

Thats one way to look at it. Again, AMD does not compete only in the 1080ti-Titan range. While AIBs might feel this way, the damage will be done anyway

 

As i see it, nV doesnt mention AMD not coz they dont compete, since it would be a sweet point "see, our competitors are so shit, our graphs are like 5 times longer", but coz its a continious strategy to be the only brand associated with gaming.

[Razor01]

7 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

Thats one way to look at it. Again, AMD does not compete only in the 1080ti-Titan range. While AIBs might feel this way, the damage will be done anyway

 

As i see it, nV doesnt mention AMD not coz they dont compete, since it would be a sweet point "see, our competitors are so shit, our graphs are like 5 times longer", but coz its a continious strategy to be the only brand associated with gaming.

 

 

NO lol, sorry when you have such a lead over the competition you don't want their products to be mentioned in the same breath as yours. This is marketing 101, this is branding, this is how adverting has worked since we had adverting guru's from the 40's and 50's.  

 

Psychology is a huge part of advertising, and its covered by the 1st amendment lol,   And it really shouldn't be but it is.  Have you ever played a game called word associations.  First things that come to your mind when you hear a word.  This is the same thing.

 

This is the problem, nV stated they want gaming associated with their cards with the GPP, the partners don't need to sign up if they don't want to, or even if they do, they can still sell competitors cards in another non gaming "branded" line.  This is tricky stuff, its not anti competitive action, they are saying take a different approach with advertising because our cards are gaming, their cards are not in the same league, so don't call them gaming.

 

And now even Vega 56, is not really in the same league as 1070, we can make a case for the 1070ti, but even then I wouldn't put them there, because of the 1070ti boosts and overclock all that jazz, rx 580 definitely not in the same league as gtx 1060.  If it was just performance, yeah we can say so, but its not just performance its everything.

[hobobobo]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

You want me to find you a webpage/pdf that doesn't exist or is not available online?  I have a euroarc 140 inverter welder I am trying to fix, apart from a handful of second hand sales sites and forum mentions there is no product page for it (it is not old either).  Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

Gimme the pic of the thing and i will find it, even if its just a rebrand of somebody elses product) got plenty of experience with that stuff from time at engneering company) Or just go to the closest OBI and they will give you the documentation

 

The point was - major consumer company. Inverter welder is not a gpu/phone/car/chair/cleaning solution/whatever household item/apparel or anything else purely/mostly b2c

[hobobobo]

3 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

 

NO lol, sorry when you have such a lead over the competition you don't' want their products to be mentioned in the same breath as yours. This is marketing 101, this is branding, this is how adverting has worked since we had adverting guru's from the 40's and 50's.  

 

Psychology is a huge part of advertising, and its covered by the 1st amendment lol,   And it really shouldn't be but it is.

 

This is the problem, nV stated they want gaming associated with their cards with the GPP, the partners don't need to sign up if they don't want to, or even if they do, they can still sell competitors cards in another non gaming "branded" line.  This is tricky stuff, its not anti competitive action, they are saying take a different approach with advertising because our cards are gaming, they are not in the same league, so don't call them gaming.

The first three sentances about not associating is basicly what i said)

 

 

The thing is, its not up to them to decide what is gaming and what is not. We can argue all day on the point and i doubt either of us will be in the right, not befor the court ruling. And with the way it looks now, unless somebody does major excavation activities, their aint gonna be no court ruling

 

And just a little prick, i guess neither Xbone or PS4 are gaming devices))

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

Gimme the pic of the thing and i will find it, even if its just a rebrand of somebody elses product) got plenty of experience with that stuff from time at engneering company) Or just go to the closest OBI and they will give you the documentation

 

The point was - major consumer company. Inverter welder is not a gpu/phone/car/chair/cleaning solution/whatever household item/apparel or anything else purely/mostly b2c

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0018-5012747/plant-services-compressors-and-generators/p-euro-arc-140-inverter-welder-p-ul-li-240-volt-li-li-comes-wit

http://www.awelco.com/categoria/awelco/inverter/

This is the best I can get online. a picture from grays and the company page for inverters.

 

It is not a re-brand. and my point is there is no law or regulation that a company has to have it's products listed on a website.

[Razor01]

Just now, hobobobo said:

The first three sentances about not associating is basicly what i said)

 

 

The thing is, its not up to them to decide what is gaming and what is not. We can argue all day on the point and i doubt either of us will be in the right, not befor the court ruling. And with the way it looks now, unless somebody does major excavation activities, their aint gonna be no court ruling

 

 

It isn't up to them that is why the AIB's don't need to sign up for the program in the first place.

 

As mentioned before, they don't have these "perks" automatically right either.  They are negotiated for on a per AIB per circumstance basis.

 

nV is not "taking" away anything from the AIB's, when the AIB's don't get those automatically.

[laminutederire]

1 minute ago, hobobobo said:

 

Xbox what? I only know about the switch. It's the only one which has superb graphics for Zelda...

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

to be fair they are comparing a 580 to a 1080.  I wouldn't call a 580 gamer focused when the next model is a 1080.  If it was a vega I would share your concern.

 

But we are still getting ahead of ourselves. 

MSI have gone as far as removing all AMD cards from showing up on their website product pages for the top end ranges. All existing cards under those high end product ranges can only be found by search for them and it's not like they aren't being sold anymore because they are.

https://www.amazon.com/MSI-RX-580-GAMING-8G/dp/B06Y19NMP3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521582237&sr=8-1&keywords=MSI+RX+580+Gaming+X

 

If you are looking for the best RX 580 cards now you actually have to explicitly know there is an MSI RX 580 Gaming X card.

 

Also Vega is effected to, MSI have renamed those to Boost which were previously Aero.

[Razor01]

15 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

 

Look the problem here is, nV's contract takes advantage of AMD's weakness (nV's strength) in the market and perceived weakness in the future.  The gesture of optional is for the courts sake, we all know that.  But the option is there man, the court can't say otherwise.  XFX is a perfect example of this.  XFX was pushed out of selling nV cards.  They were given similar options if I'm not mistake.  XFX decided to go with all AMD.

 

its also nV's right to have whom ever AIB's they want as partners too.  They don't need to sell gpu's to anyone that want them.  Barring on going contracts of course.  So if an AIB doesn't want to be part of the GPP, once their contract for buying Pascal based GPU's is done, which is coming up, nV can just say sorry no more GPU's for you with Volta or what ever it is.  Either way nV gets what it wants.

 

That is not anti competitive.  nV knows, just as AIB's know either they have to keep nV happy or they loose a lot. 

 

Its slimy as hell but what choice do these guys have?  Go all AMD for graphics?  Kinda kills them ROG/well gaming brand anyways lol.

[Arika]

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

MSI have gone as far as removing all AMD cards from showing up on their website product pages for the top end ranges. All existing cards under those high end product ranges can only be found by search for them and it's not like they aren't being sold anymore because they are.

https://www.amazon.com/MSI-RX-580-GAMING-8G/dp/B06Y19NMP3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521582237&sr=8-1&keywords=MSI+RX+580+Gaming+X

It's likely they had to delist the pages while they reword them.

 

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

MSI have gone as far as removing all AMD cards from showing up on their website product pages for the top end ranges. All existing cards under those high end product ranges can only be found by search for them and it's not like they aren't being sold anymore because they are.

https://www.amazon.com/MSI-RX-580-GAMING-8G/dp/B06Y19NMP3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521582237&sr=8-1&keywords=MSI+RX+580+Gaming+X

 

If you are looking for the best RX 580 cards now you actually have to explicitly know there is an MSI RX 580 Gaming X card.

 

Also Vega is effected to, MSI have renamed those to Boost which were previously Aero.

So we are seeing a shift in branding from MSI on their website, I can accept that. It looks like boost is the new Vega and Armour is the for the others, while X trio and aero are for Nvidia.   When Gigabyte and Asus remove the term Gaming from their AMD cards I will be more inclined to agree.   However we still have the issue that one company is changing their line up and another 2 aren't.   So what evidence is this that GPP is effecting the market?

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

It's likely they had to delist the pages while they reword them.

Which means when they come back they will not be carrying the Gaming X branding, yet that's what they were and are still gaming cards. I get that Nvidia wants some branding separation but I simply do not agree with taking over existing branding rights from partner companies who created those brands in the first place.

 

If Nvidia wants all partners to name their top end cards 'Ultra Performance 1000' then go right ahead, make that a requirement.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So we are seeing a shift in branding from MSI on their website, I can accept that. It looks like boost is the new Vega and Armour is the for the others, while X trio and aero are for Nvidia.   When Gigabyte and Asus remove the term Gaming from their AMD cards I will be more inclined to agree.   However we still have the issue that one company is changing their line up and another 2 aren't.   So what evidence is this that GPP is effecting the market?

Well far as I've heard only MSI and Asus have been confirmed to have signed up for GPP, though no doubt EVGA has too along with others. It takes time to rebrand so I'm not that surprised it's only MSI so far, if GPP is as new as being suggested.

[hobobobo]

25 minutes ago, mr moose said:

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0018-5012747/plant-services-compressors-and-generators/p-euro-arc-140-inverter-welder-p-ul-li-240-volt-li-li-comes-wit

http://www.awelco.com/categoria/awelco/inverter/

This is the best I can get online. a picture from grays and the company page for inverters.

 

It is not a re-brand. and my point is there is no law or regulation that a company has to have it's products listed on a website.

As far as i got now, euroarc is 1st stage manufacturers who sells components to market-deliverers. Its a challenge for me now, ima find it even if it kills me) If you can provide a photo of the backplate some time, would be much easier) its 1am now, ima do it in the coming day or two)

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

nV is not "taking" away anything from the AIB's, when the AIB's don't get those automatically.

They are taking away their ability to name their products how they want to and have done in the past, twist it how you like that is what is happening. I really don't care what Nvidia has to say about it or what they want it's something they did not have in the past and should not have.

 

An MSI RX 580 Gaming X is a gaming card period, that's what it was made for and marketed as until suddenly it isn't and it's not AMD nor MSI who made that call.

 

6 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

Look the problem here is, nV's contract takes advantage of AMD's weakness (nV's strength) in the market and perceived weakness in the future.  The gesture of optional is for the courts sake, we all know that.  But the option is there man, the court can't say otherwise.  XFX is a perfect example of this.  XFX was pushed out of selling nV cards.  They were given similar options if I'm not mistake.  XFX decided to go with all AMD.

 

That is not anti competitive.  nV knows, just as AIB's know either they have to keep nV happy or they loose a lot. 

What you are describing is exactly what Antitrust laws are for. You're literally advocating that breaking those laws is fine, because the company is bigger than the other.

 

Quote

United States antitrust law is a collection of federal and state government laws that regulates the conduct and organization of business corporations, generally to promote fair competition for the benefit of consumers. (The concept is called competition law in other English-speaking countries.) The main statutes are the Sherman Act of 1890, the Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914. These Acts, first, restrict the formation of cartels and prohibit other collusive practices regarded as being in restraint of trade. Second, they restrict the mergers and acquisitions of organizations that could substantially lessen competition. Third, they prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

 

The problem is Antitrust lawsuits are the hardest and most long and drawn out and in my opinion totally ineffective.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, hobobobo said:

As far as i got now, euroarc is 1st stage manufacturers who sells components to market-deliverers. Its a challenge for me now, ima find it even if it kills me) If you can provide a photo of the backplate some time, would be much easier) its 1am now, ima do it in the coming day or two)

It's made by Awelco (Italy).  euroarc is the model.  I'll take an actual picture later.  But I can almost guarantee you won;t find anything. I have been looking for hours now.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well far as I've heard only MSI and Asus have been confirmed to have signed up for GPP, though no doubt EVGA has too along with others. It takes time to rebrand so I'm not that surprised it's only MSI so far, if GPP is as new as being suggested.

Time will tell, it always does.

[Razor01]

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

They are taking away their ability to name their products how they want to and have done in the past, twist it how you like that is what is happening. I really don't care what Nvidia has to say about it or what they want it's something they did not have in the past and should not have.

 

An MSI RX 580 Gaming X is a gaming card period, that's what it was made for and marketed as until suddenly it isn't and it's not AMD nor MSI who made that call.

 

What you are describing is exactly what Antitrust laws are for. You're literally advocating that breaking those laws is fine, because the company is bigger than the other.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

 

The problem is Antitrust lawsuits are the hardest and most long and drawn out and in my opinion totally ineffective.

 

 

That isn't anti trust though.  Advertising isn't enumerated in anti trust for this specific reason (outside of price fixing).  Its ephemeral.  Its fleeting.  There has been NO actions against exclusive advertising in the US or EU ever, because its impossible to regulate in this manner.  If the parties were colluding to do harm that is a different which comes down to price fixing and territorial sales, that is not happening here. 

 

http://www.kkrlaw.com/articles/antitrust.htm#advertising

 

Quote

 

Statements made in advertising, sales literature or in sales presentations must be free from deception to avoid violating the FTC Act. A statement is "deceptive" if, when considered, as a whole it tends to deceive the average purchaser. Deception may also occur where certain disclosures are not made about the product - for example: product changes, composition, dangers in use, foreign origin of the product, imperfections, and the used or rebuilt character of the product.

Substantiation for representations made about a product must be obtained before making claims to the purchaser. The seller's lack of knowledge that a claim is false or deceptive will not stop FTC's enforcement of the law.

ANTITRUST GUIDELINES

A number of general guidelines and rules can be drawn from the discussion of federal antitrust laws.

Dealings with Competitors

 

1. Don't agree on and avoid discussing the following topics with any competitor:

    

   • Prices, changes in or stabilization of prices, terms or conditions of sale

      

   • Pricing policies or practices of any industry member

      

   • Forecasts of price increases or decreases

      

   • Specific credit terms, discounts, rebates, freight allowances, profits, profit margins or costs, surcharges, market shares or sales territories

      

   • Selection, rejection or termination of one of your suppliers or customers

      

   • Production levels or schedules

      

   • Bids, or intent to bid or not to bid on a contract

      

2. If you are a member of a trade association or similar group, be sure competent legal counsel monitors the association meetings, programs and activities.

    

3. Don't exchange price information (or other sensitive business information) with competitors without guidance from company counsel. Be able to show that you obtained information on a competitor's prices from some source other than the competitor.

    

4. Don't agree with any competitor to refuse to sell to certain customers, or to buy from certain suppliers.

    

Dealings with Customers

 

1. Don't agree with a customer as to the resale price the customer will charge for your product. Any resale price agreement should be reviewed in advance by company counsel.

    

2. Don't agree with a customer as to the persons or markets or territories where he may resell your product without prior approval of your company counsel.

    

3. Don't discuss your dealings with a customer with any other customer.

    

4. Prices, terms of payment, delivery and other conditions of sale of a product or service must generally be the same for competing purchasers. Any deviation from a uniform policy should be reviewed in advance by company counsel.

    

5. A company which furnishes services, facilities or promotional allowances must make these available to all competing customers on proportionally equal terms.

    

6. Avoid requirements contracts, reciprocal dealing agreements and tying arrangements unless approved by company counsel.

    

7. Be certain that termination of suppliers or customers is for justifiable and documented business reasons and in compliance with applicable state law.

    

8. Be sure advertising claims are documented in advance.

 

 

 

The anti trust guidelines don't go into exclusive advertising unless its false advertising.

 

AIB's OEM's don't want to go to court on this because they know any outcome they are screwed.  nV can say sorry we don't want you as a reseller anymore once Volta comes out.  That is it.

[hobobobo]

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It's made by Awelco (Italy).  euroarc is the model.  I'll take an actual picture later.  But I can almost guarantee you won;t find anything. I have been looking for hours now.

http://www.awelco.com/product/mikro-inverter-140-1/

i think its this thing, they had just "renewed" it a bit. Machinery is a shitshow, but even then, with the back plate im sure it can be found

https://www.bricoutensili.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=2094

and this is prolly what you were looking for

edit: pdf is a bit shit, here is whats missing

Welding Awelco Inverter 140.1 – 60112
1	M389915SP	BELT WITH CLIPS CM 60
2	S087700SP	KNOB
3	S00312SP	PANEL
4	M431122SP	DINSE CONNECTOR
5	S00660SP	MANTLE
6	M484200SP	BLACK BIPOLAR SWITCH
7	M581110SP	INPUT CABLE 1,5x2300
8	S089250SP	ELECTRONIC CARD HOLDER
9	AW59110SP	ELECTRONIC BOARD 110 A
11	M500251SP	FAN 92/92/25 24V/2
12	S052450SP	FRONT/BACK MASK
14	M708250SP	FERRITE+CABLE 2.5X150 BLACK

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

That isn't anti trust though.  Advertising isn't enumerated in anti trust for this specific reason (outside of price fixing).  Its ephemeral.  Its fleeting.  There has been NO actions against exclusive advertising in the US or EU ever, because its impossible to regulate in this manner.  If the parties were colluding to do harm that is a different which comes down to price fixing and territorial sales, that is not happening here. 

 

http://www.kkrlaw.com/articles/antitrust.htm#advertising

Except this isn't solely advertising and Antitrust isn't just price fixing either.

 

Also by pushing out AMD from being able to be branded as gaming that also falls under 'prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power'.

 

Edit:

Also they have more than just US law to contend with.

Edited March 20, 2018 by leadeater

[Razor01]

16 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Except this isn't solely advertising and Antitrust isn't just price fixing either.

 

Also by pushing out AMD from being able to be branded as gaming that also falls under 'prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power'.

 

Edit:

Also they have more than just US law to contend with.

This is what you are getting at

 

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/refusal-deal

 

now there are relative points here but the problem is nV is not refusing to deal with AIB's.  They are giving them the option GPP or no benefits.

Quote

In general, a firm has no duty to deal with its competitors. In fact, imposing obligations on a firm to do business with its rivals is at odds with other antitrust rules that discourage agreements among competitors that may unreasonably restrict competition. But courts have, in some circumstances, found antitrust liability when a firm with market power refused to do business with a competitor. For instance, if the monopolist refuses to sell a product or service to a competitor that it makes available to others, or if the monopolist has done business with the competitor and then stops, the monopolist needs a legitimate business reason for its policies. Courts will continue to develop the law in this area.

They aren't saying don't sell AMD products.  Just not as their gaming brand.  And as I stated exclusive advertising "buzz words" are not covered by Anti Trust.

 

The second part is here

 

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/other-agreements-among

 

Quote

Business associations made up of competitors can offer their members important services and benefits that improve efficiency and reduce costs. These services and benefits can range from general industry promotion to high-tech support. But when an association of competitors withholds these benefits from would-be members that offer a competitive alternative that consumers want, the restriction may harm competition and keep prices high. This problem only occurs when members of the association have a significant market presence and it is difficult for non-members to compete without access to association-sponsored benefits.

They aren't limiting membership, would be member right?  Either you are a member and you get those benefits, or you are not and don't get those benefits.

 

Its very straight forward.

[PopReference]

I'm looking forward to the time when people start asking if AMD graphics cards can play games; because "It doesn't say gaming" on it, followed quickly by fanboys on both sides saying 'yes' and 'no.'

 

This whole issue seems far to petty to matter, for nvidia to care about it is weird, but a huge can of worms to deal with.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

 

This is what you are getting at

 

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/refusal-deal

 

now there are relative points here but the problem is nV is not refusing to deal with AIB's.  They are giving them the option GPP or no benefits.

They aren't saying don't sell AMD products.  Just not as their gaming brand.

 

The second part is here

 

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/other-agreements-among

 

They aren't limiting membership, would be member right?  Either you are a member and you get those benefits, or you are not and don't get those benefits.

 

Its very straight forward.

Yea no it really isn't as simple as you're trying to make it out as. Those examples are also relating to direct dealings with competitors, this is contractual issues that are imposing restrictions on another company dealings with their competitor.

 

The benefits have nothing to do with it either, if it was about that then there would be no issue. It is not a benefit to be restricted on how you name your products or products from a competitor.

[cj09beira]

1 hour ago, Razor01 said:

 

They can still sell their cards just not in the same brand man, so that right there doesn't do anything.

 

This is why I stated, we need to look at what Anti competitive vs Anti Competitor is.  This is Anti competitor.

you must not know but cards with "gaming" automatically sell 3:1 over cards that dont have that name, so this is a huge problem, the normal consumer is too dumb/ uninformed to know about this things 

[Razor01]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yea no it really isn't as simple as you're trying to make it out as. Those examples are also relating to direct dealings with competitors, this is contractual issues that are imposing restrictions on another company deal with their competitor.

 

The benefits have nothing to do with it either, if it was about that then there would be no issue. It is not a benefit to be restricted on how you name your products or products from a competitor.

 

 

No they talk about that.

 

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/refusal-deal

 

This is if nV ever crosses this line.   Pretty much holding back supply that was agreed upon in writing.  Key words, agreed upon in writing.  So no agreement with next gen GPU, nothing that can be done. 

 

Quote

Sometimes the refusal to deal is with customers or suppliers, with the effect of preventing them from dealing with a rival: "I refuse to deal with you if you deal with my competitor."

 

nV isn't saying this.  They are saying if you are part of the GPP, then you must stop advertising AMD cards as the same brand lol.