Car Enthusiast Club [Now Motorcycle friendly!] - First thread to 150k! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Bitter]

Quality over quantity. Young guy who left to work for Penske was like that, rip shit apart super fast and then uhhhhh how's it go together....? Caught him putting hoses on backwards rubbing on things, silicone gasket on old orings for AC, etc. Trying to show off how fast he was but just terrible workmanship. Tried to tell him at Penske that stuff won't fly especially on trucks getting DOT inspection. If it's his name signed off on work it falls back on him if someone gets killed cause a wheel flew off and smashed in a kids head in a minivan. I don't know if he understood that or that his contract meant he had to work for them for 2 years after training and that if they fired him he'd owe them the training costs. Probably rushed through the fine print too. Nice person, just very inexperienced and immature yet.

[Beerzerker]

On 11/12/2022 at 11:17 PM, Bitter said:

Quality over quantity. Young guy who left to work for Penske was like that, rip shit apart super fast and then uhhhhh how's it go together....? Caught him putting hoses on backwards rubbing on things, silicone gasket on old orings for AC, etc. Trying to show off how fast he was but just terrible workmanship. Tried to tell him at Penske that stuff won't fly especially on trucks getting DOT inspection. If it's his name signed off on work it falls back on him if someone gets killed cause a wheel flew off and smashed in a kids head in a minivan. I don't know if he understood that or that his contract meant he had to work for them for 2 years after training and that if they fired him he'd owe them the training costs. Probably rushed through the fine print too. Nice person, just very inexperienced and immature yet.

When I was running an oil change place years ago I made it clear to the guys I hired when I interviewed them - I told them "You do NOT have a set duty or certain things you do and don't do - Your job is to do what I ask you to do because if I ask it of you, there's reason for it..... And if that is a problem for you, go ahead and walk now".

The guys I had were a good bunch, always got the job done and I didn't have these kind of issues about "That's not my job" and so on.
Did have to fire one later because he was caught sleeping in his car well after lunch break had ended by my boss  - Didn't want to but rules are rules you know so I had to do it or I would have been gone myself.

Along the way I've been around a few as described above as "Cancer" and those didn't stay around for too long, they always shot themselves in the foot somehow.

Back when I was working for Nissan Forklift, I recall we had hired one guy that was supposedly a "Good" mech but it turned out later he was shortcutting things on job sites he worked at for the company.
This practice of shortcutting things onsite eventually became a problem due to a certain business/customer he was taking care of had literally asked him to and he was compliant to keep them happy....
Things he knew damned well he shoudn't have been shortcutting and letting slide in general.

I had to go in behind him once because he was unavailable to go out there and what problems I found were simply ridiculous, that company didn't like me at all because I had recorded what I found on the paperwork (To cover myself and my employer) and they had to fix it to cover their own backsides due to it being recorded.

For example, on one lift I had found a counterweight on one was loose - So loose it was in danger of coming off, I coudn't get it to tighten up and what I found explained why.
The big bolt that holds it in place (Takes a two and a half inch, 3/4 drive socket to get on and off) was loose and the weight had been bouncing on it to the point it had nearly broken off, the "Saddles" it rested on up top were beaten down flat and worn out too because it had been bouncing.
It had to go to the shop for some major metal work to get it right again and that wasn't all the shop guys found about it but I'll not go into all that - I'd be posting here all day if I did.

After all that "Adventure" and a few other things too, long story short they asked that I was not to be sent back again, they said they'd wait on him to be available instead - Which I was more than fine with. 
Guys, there is nothing like working on literal junk and running the risk of being responsible for it. 

In this case it was because the company was so cheap they woudn't even fix most of the basics unless they were forced to and didn't help this guy was half-assing everything he did to the point of negligence as work habit; In this case it was also to keep this customer/company happy.

And one day it finally bit their asses.
There was an accident at the place in which someone got hurt, OSHA came in and revealed it all.

Good thing for us was he had left our company by that time and was working elsewhere. Because that particular company liked him so much, when he left he took that account with him.  

His employer at that time and that company he was doing these cost-cutting favors for had a nice "Little" fine imposed and lawsuit filed against them too for neglegence (The company and his employer at that time lost) and a few other things that finally took him out of the game.
The entire fleet of lifts they had were in such bad shape OSHA inspected them, judged all of them as "Unsafe" and ordered them to either be repaired or scrapped. 
I believe they were all scrapped.

[GlassBomb]

12 hours ago, IPD said:

Upgrade the fluid?  Replace the brake booster?  Replace lines/hoses? 

The fluid and brake booster is mostly fine. I will probably just take out whatever is found in the reservoir, but fill it up with fresh fluid. Need to look at replacing any lines connected to the rear calipers.

[Bitter]

8 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

When I was running an oil change place years ago I made it clear to the guys I hired when I interviewed them - I told them "You do NOT have a set duty or certain things you do and don't do - Your job is to do what I ask you to do because if I ask it of you, there's reason for it..... And if that is a problem for you, go ahead and walk now".

That's similar to how we run but we have to be like that because it's such a small place. The other kid we have who's even younger than the one who left, literally still a teenager, is 100% more mature and thorough with his work but sadly is only 16 so isn't permitted to operate vehicles (we let him drive one in the other day as a joke because the trans was slipping so bad and the weed smell inside was soo strong, little bit of friendly hazing) but he can do 'non hazardous work'. We're just careful to double check stuff, make sure he uses a torque wrench, if he sets up a car I either take a minute to set it up with him or check the setup before it goes up. I think he'll be a good mechanic, he just needs to learn more about how some of the more advanced things function and work. Trying to explain a CVT how two pulleys change diameter to change ratios constantly wasn't clicking with him, I need to remember that I'm 20yrs more experience and grew up inadvertently learning some basic mechanical engineering playing with Lego's and reading books like "The Way Things Work". I understood in 3rd grade that a screw is an inclined plane wrapped around a pivot to do work over a long distance compacted into rotational movement, that a large and small pulley traded speed for power back and forth, that gears not only changed speed/torque but also direction but belts and pulleys do the same without direction change, roughly how pnuematics and hydraulics worked and moved power from one place to another and also could trade distance and power back and forth. I had a very 'technical' youth which I think wasn't ever very common and maybe is less common now. This kid though, he's building go-karts, made a push mower into a riding mower with junk parts from the trash, just got a 3D printer, he's catching up quick and seems to be able to learn so I'm really hopeful for him! I wish we had him for more than a few hours one day a week but school can't be skipped.

[Beerzerker]

9 hours ago, Bitter said:

That's similar to how we run but we have to be like that because it's such a small place. The other kid we have who's even younger than the one who left, literally still a teenager, is 100% more mature and thorough with his work but sadly is only 16 so isn't permitted to operate vehicles (we let him drive one in the other day as a joke because the trans was slipping so bad and the weed smell inside was soo strong, little bit of friendly hazing) but he can do 'non hazardous work'. We're just careful to double check stuff, make sure he uses a torque wrench, if he sets up a car I either take a minute to set it up with him or check the setup before it goes up. I think he'll be a good mechanic, he just needs to learn more about how some of the more advanced things function and work. Trying to explain a CVT how two pulleys change diameter to change ratios constantly wasn't clicking with him, I need to remember that I'm 20yrs more experience and grew up inadvertently learning some basic mechanical engineering playing with Lego's and reading books like "The Way Things Work". I understood in 3rd grade that a screw is an inclined plane wrapped around a pivot to do work over a long distance compacted into rotational movement, that a large and small pulley traded speed for power back and forth, that gears not only changed speed/torque but also direction but belts and pulleys do the same without direction change, roughly how pnuematics and hydraulics worked and moved power from one place to another and also could trade distance and power back and forth. I had a very 'technical' youth which I think wasn't ever very common and maybe is less common now. This kid though, he's building go-karts, made a push mower into a riding mower with junk parts from the trash, just got a 3D printer, he's catching up quick and seems to be able to learn so I'm really hopeful for him! I wish we had him for more than a few hours one day a week but school can't be skipped.

Train him correctly now, he'll have good work habits later and won't forget it.
Even if he doesn't go into mechanics as a career, what he does learn will be useful elsewhere because for example, one skill it does teach is problem solving. That's a skill he'll only get by doing it - You can't learn it from a book.
The more problems he solves the better he'll be in the end.
Just make sure he learns some electrical of course and I'd highly suggest learning about and getting certified in auto AC work too - That's something all on it's own a person can make a killing with. 

If it's available to you/him, get an ASE license and supplement it with training as required to stay current.
I'll also say go for a MACS license too if you can because that doesn't expire once you've earned it. 

An ASE license/certification does every few years and you have to retake/retest (Repay) for it to remain "Good" but having an ASE license/certification isn't a bad thing in itself - Really good in fact for staying current with the newest stuff coming out. 

[Bitter]

I've got 2 or 4 of the ASE but it was a few years ago before COVID. I need to get around to the rest and renew and stuff I know.

[vetali]

I need to renew my ASE master certification. 4 of them expired in August, other 4 expire soon. Honestly they are too easy. When I am only getting 0-3 answers wrong on a test with 90 questions there is a problem lol. The tests I took in trade school were much harder.

 

But employers dick ride ASE for whatever reason. Honda doesn't care about them at all. At least when I was at the training center the first time they said that.

[Bitter]

Anyone who waves their ASE certs or MASTER TECH around is 99% of the time a by the book idiot who can't think outside the pages, in my experience.

[vetali]

10 minutes ago, Bitter said:

Anyone who waves their ASE certs or MASTER TECH around is 99% of the time a by the book idiot who can't think outside the pages, in my experience.

I think using it as a title is fine. They are the only certifications in the US really aside from manufacturer specific ones.

 

When I was unemployed in 2017 due to quitting my job at the time, every employer wanted to pay min wage without certs. Eventually I just borrowed some money (the tests are damn expensive), got master certified, then got a job at Toyota which I hated and quickly found out that they were just gonna leave me split days on the lube rack. After that I went to Honda and been climbing the ladder since.

 

Certs don't give you the most valuable tool, experience. I always tell guys that are struggling to give it 30-45 minutes of diagnosing before running and asking me. You don't retain that info if you don't struggle to get to the answer.

[Bitter]

19 minutes ago, vetali said:

I think using it as a title is fine. They are the only certifications in the US really aside from manufacturer specific ones.

 

When I was unemployed in 2017 due to quitting my job at the time, every employer wanted to pay min wage without certs. Eventually I just borrowed some money (the tests are damn expensive), got master certified, then got a job at Toyota which I hated and quickly found out that they were just gonna leave me split days on the lube rack. After that I went to Honda and been climbing the ladder since.

 

Certs don't give you the most valuable tool, experience. I always tell guys that are struggling to give it 30-45 minutes of diagnosing before running and asking me. You don't retain that info if you don't struggle to get to the answer.

Absolutely, the hard ones are what stick with me too. We get a lot of work that's been worked on before and a lot of things are random broken wires inside harnesses so you learn by experience where things fail and where to look first.

[bcredeur97]

3 hours ago, vetali said:

I need to renew my ASE master certification. 4 of them expired in August, other 4 expire soon. Honestly they are too easy. When I am only getting 0-3 answers wrong on a test with 90 questions there is a problem lol. The tests I took in trade school were much harder.

 

But employers dick ride ASE for whatever reason. Honda doesn't care about them at all. At least when I was at the training center the first time they said that.

 

1 hour ago, Bitter said:

Anyone who waves their ASE certs or MASTER TECH around is 99% of the time a by the book idiot who can't think outside the pages, in my experience.

experience > book knowledge for any job

It's also the one thing that's extremely hard/impossible to pass on to new people. It really is a shame.

[Beerzerker]

12 hours ago, Bitter said:

Anyone who waves their ASE certs or MASTER TECH around is 99% of the time a by the book idiot who can't think outside the pages, in my experience.

That's because hands-on experience is better, far better than getting it all from a book.
It's one thing to know, it's another to know what to do with what you've learned from the book or by dealing with it directly.

Actual experience with it is the best teacher of all.

[iDeFecZx]

On 11/12/2022 at 11:14 PM, GlassBomb said:

Trying to think of what "might as well" fixes I can do to my car while replacing the caliper.
New calipers, rotors, pads, and possibly even sort out the parking brake once and for all.
Since it's still barely stopping with the parking brake.

Replace the flexi hoses and some decent fluid wouldnt be a bad shout

[Bitter]

On 11/13/2022 at 6:37 AM, GlassBomb said:

The fluid and brake booster is mostly fine. I will probably just take out whatever is found in the reservoir, but fill it up with fresh fluid. Need to look at replacing any lines connected to the rear calipers.

Stainless braided hoses?

[vetali]

22 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

 

experience > book knowledge for any job

It's also the one thing that's extremely hard/impossible to pass on to new people. It really is a shame.

Yeah true, but I am always willing to give a green person a shot to gain that experience if they seem like they got their head on straight. I know how frustrating it is to flip through indeed and see job listings that are "must have ASEs and 5 years experience."

 

Big thing I have noticed is the issues with lying and inability to admit fault when you screw up with people. You're gonna screw up in this trade. How you admit and respond is huge factor for how I look at a new person. I had noticed our new hire was swinging his oil can while walking through the shop (whatever reason the oil containers are by my bays, across the shop from the lube racks). I told him to hold it up while walking through the shop otherwise you can dribble oil on the floor. He was like "oh yeah, I always hold it up straight when walking" when I literally just saw him do the opposite 15 seconds before. I kept my poker face, but was internally REEEEEing.

 

He did correct himself afterwards though. So at least theres that.

[Bitter]

That's what absolutely killed me about the kid who left for Penske. Could not admit fault on anything. Borrowed my caliper hangers, I have 4 of them. Then I had 3. Asked him where the missing one was 'oh I didn't use them' BRO, I HANDED THEM TO YOU. Oh yeah I put it back. DUDE ONE IS MISSING. Oh maybe it fell off.

Nope, it was still on the car and had actually managed to hook the brake hose and was walking up the coil spring when the wheel was turned right and if it had been turned full lock it probably would have pulled the hose off the crimped fitting it was on there so tight. Made him take the jack and gun outside and pull the wheel in the parking lot to get it off. All the time stuff like that and never ever 'oh shit I forgot the brake hanger, my bad let me go get it for you'. And we told him over and over we're not looking for fast or perfect, you're new and learning and we get that things are going to happen and you're going to make mistakes. Just be honest and consistent.

He also had an issue with the boss 'being too hard on him' and actually had the balls to bring it up right to his face. Boss isn't always easy to get along with, he gets stressed and pissy and lets his attitude spill over into how he interacts with others. Some people are just like that. It's not something I enjoy about him but hey it's just how he is. 90% of the time he's fine, but if you lie to his face he's going to call you out on it and be a dick about it to you because you lied to him. New kid didn't like that, I don't think they'd learned how to handle stress and just let shit roll off their back yet. Both of them, the one who left and the one who's still there really prefer working with me vs working with him. Different teaching styles, boss tends just do stuff then expect you to do stuff where as I'm more hands on and probe with questions and try to get them to think about what they're doing and why they're doing and how they could be doing it smarter or with out assistance from me and then explain why it's being done the way it's being done. If I had infinite patience I'd probably make a good automotive teacher but I don't have enough people tolerance for that. I got into working on cars to get away from dealing with people so much and honestly could see myself getting into equipment to get even more away from people but I don't want to have to do on-site work.

[vetali]

I see stuff like that a lot with new guys. Me personally my method of training is they watch me through one job, I guide them through another, and they're on their own after that. My boss and I clash heads on that a lot. He'd rather have a new guy follow one of us for like 3 days before handing them off on their own. My first job at a shop I was just handed a part and told to replace it. Was a power steering pressure hose on an old durango. Obviously that method doesn't work for everyone. I ended up clashing heads with that boss a ton and eventually lead to me straight up quitting without a job lined up.

 

I'm not sure I would want to teach this trade. No way I would teach trade schools. The instructors at the Honda training centers are way too deep into the kool-aid. Its almost startling. Field techs don't get paid enough despite there being a huge shortage. Have a dumb customer that keeps breaking fill necks on their rig trying to lemon law it (they have no idea how lemon law is, thinks they can just get a refund after 3 tries. They don't realize these cases go to court and you need to lawyer up rather than having your local mechanic call corporate for you). Anyway advisor wants a field tech to come out. They're like yeaaaah, we don't have any in your district.

[Bitter]

I'm tire bitch today. 6 down, 4 more to go after lunch. At least all the lower profile ones were pretty easy snow tires with soft sidewalls. The 4 Conto PureContact up next will be pretty easy too. Two sets of directional tires and I didn't get any going the wrong way lol, that's better than I've done on my own cars! Helps that I've caught on to DOT in, DOT out to make sure each pair is mirrored but embarrassed it took me this long to notice that. Seems like we do all the tires at once when we do tires here.

[Radium_Angel]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technologies-make-evs-less-reliable.html

 

Is Consumer Reports still a non-biased source?

[Bitter]

Iirc simple things like infotainment issues influence the reliability ranking and are unreasonably weighted when compared to drivetrain issues or actual problems that stop the car from being driven.

[chaozbandit]

Subaru killing the sedan and the 2.5L makes a comeback

 

Massive W?
 

 

[Beerzerker]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:18 PM, vetali said:

I see stuff like that a lot with new guys. Me personally my method of training is they watch me through one job, I guide them through another, and they're on their own after that. My boss and I clash heads on that a lot. He'd rather have a new guy follow one of us for like 3 days before handing them off on their own. My first job at a shop I was just handed a part and told to replace it. Was a power steering pressure hose on an old durango. Obviously that method doesn't work for everyone. I ended up clashing heads with that boss a ton and eventually lead to me straight up quitting without a job lined up.

 

I'm not sure I would want to teach this trade. No way I would teach trade schools. The instructors at the Honda training centers are way too deep into the kool-aid. Its almost startling. Field techs don't get paid enough despite there being a huge shortage. Have a dumb customer that keeps breaking fill necks on their rig trying to lemon law it (they have no idea how lemon law is, thinks they can just get a refund after 3 tries. They don't realize these cases go to court and you need to lawyer up rather than having your local mechanic call corporate for you). Anyway advisor wants a field tech to come out. They're like yeaaaah, we don't have any in your district.

It's been awhile since I was there but I know a trade school can help.
One point the instructor made was for us to make the mistakes there so we'd learn about it before we'd have to learn about it "Out there", which leads to such issues.
I made my fair share of such goofs in the class shop and it didn't cost me my job either, plus I tok what I did learn and applied it to my real world working experience.
Of course you never stop learning, it's mainly to get yourself beyond the basics without the process of learning costing you so much, as in your livelyhood.
Used to be there were Vocational schools you could sign up for during one's high school years that taught subjects in school like "Auto Shop" or "Small Engines" and those did what they were supposed to towards that end. Some were directly on campus, others had a school elsewhere and we'd load up the busses and go there, getting back around time for school to end for the day.

We all know these days such things aren't around like they used to be and some of what's being described here is just a symptom of it no longer being available like it was before.
 

[rikitikitavi]

7 hours ago, chaozbandit said:

Massive W?

- if they can do something about the fugly interior, or at least the central console;

- if they put in a good auto, so you don't have to be tortured when sharing a vehicle with someone who can't drive manual;

[vetali]

1 hour ago, Beerzerker said:

It's been awhile since I was there but I know a trade school can help.
One point the instructor made was for us to make the mistakes there so we'd learn about it before we'd have to learn about it "Out there", which leads to such issues.
I made my fair share of such goofs in the class shop and it didn't cost me my job either, plus I tok what I did learn and applied it to my real world working experience.
Of course you never stop learning, it's mainly to get yourself beyond the basics without the process of learning costing you so much, as in your livelyhood.
Used to be there were Vocational schools you could sign up for during one's high school years that taught subjects in school like "Auto Shop" or "Small Engines" and those did what they were supposed to towards that end. Some were directly on campus, others had a school elsewhere and we'd load up the busses and go there, getting back around time for school to end for the day.

We all know these days such things aren't around like they used to be and some of what's being described here is just a symptom of it no longer being available like it was before.
 

The school I went to was top in the nation for whatever ASE grades technical schools. I finished with a 4.0 GPA (one other guy got it at the same time, we were the first two in 15 years since that instructor took over) and thought I was hot shit entering the trade. It was quite a humbling experience to say the least. Often times I'd get "frozen" during an electrical diag. I didn't have a good diagnostic mindset + being green on repairs. The other guy I worked with bailed me out a lot, and made me look salvageable to the owner.

 

Now, I am in the top in our district for fixed first visit. Though that might slip recently due to the aforementioned Karen with the never ending EVAP leak codes. I may have found the issue today but I need them to burn off some gas (came in with a filled to the brim tank today, can't test EVAP well with a full tank). Then we had a miscommunication on an Accord and parts ordered me the wrong module. Thats gonna ding me.

 

I am pretty rapidly becoming the diag guy. Other guy just can't do it. Just today I had to deal with 3 of his comebacks. One an Acura that had a battery drain. He correctly diagnosed it yesterday with my guidance as a HFL module. Owner didn't use bluetooth so he wanted it unplugged. No problem. Comes back in today he said he had a dead battery this AM. I get the ticket, and I plug in my meter, close the hood, lock the doors... and notice the map light isn't going off, with about an amp draw. The HFL module in the overhead console. He had to remove that console to get to the module and left the dome light toggle on. Customer parked it in daylight and didn't notice it on....

 

The other one was a 2014 Accord that had about every code in the book. He really struggles with this because he can't figure out how to sift through the bullshit codes and find primary concern codes. I quickly narrowed it down to two codes, an electric throttle body code and low voltage in the VSA module. The throttle body code had a bulletin for an update, the VSA code's freeze frame indicated that the code was set while in park, engine off, sitting >100 seconds. Run the car, VSA module voltage is = to DLC voltage. So its not a module failure. Check the battery and its growing a christmas tree of acid. Do a battery, clean terminals, update PCM, ez 2.3 hours in 20 minutes of diag.

 

Another was a no heat concern on a 2011 CR-V. He recommended an actuator "because he unplugged it and then it started moving." Well yeah.... its gonna run a self check when you unplug/replug while key on... Anyway, he rage quit today and left early. So I got the replacement job as it was a late appointment. Pull it into my bay.... heat is on max and its lukewarm. Visually check the actuator and its maxed over. Cycle it hot to cold, no binding and it goes through its full motion. Rev the engine and heat starts coming back. Check coolant level, spot on and was pressurized properly. So that bill went from 200 dollars to 2000 dollars for a heater core.

 

I don't think hes gonna be here much longer if he can't handle those basic diags. It was fine when we had two guys that could handle diags and he could do the C level stuff like brakes. He also struggles with lengthy repairs. I just had to assembly line 3 timing chain jobs on K24s because they didn't want to pass off the work to him. Thats why he got stuck with some diags, and thats why I had to deal with all that today.

 

[PandaCopyRight]

12 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

- if they can do something about the fugly interior, or at least the central console;

- if they put in a good auto, so you don't have to be tortured when sharing a vehicle with someone who can't drive manual;

I hate when the center console is just a massive ipad... it just looks terrible and most likely wont work as well as they intend it to imo 
also subaru dont do automatics .. they do CVT ... which to some is a more of an issue than someone not knowing how to drive a manual
knowing Subaru in Europe ... just offers CVT only