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techswede

Car Enthusiast Club [Now Motorcycle friendly!] - First thread to 100k! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

26 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Don't lump me in with them. I'm an enthusiast of mechanic design, be it engines, weaponry, or productive machinery. Not a guy with a wrench that reads the marketing garbage AFE/insert other "enthusiast" brand that can't legally warranty half of their products.

 

I fail to see a correlation between people screeching variations of "forced induction is more efficient!!! Reclaimed energy!!!" and anything I've said.

If you can't be civil. Please leave

 

Edit. That goes for everyone in the thread

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3 minutes ago, vinyldash303 said:

Engine makes a bit of noise but the tranny shifts fine again so just been driving it waiting for something exciting to happen. Might grab a little EG hatch or a high milage stickshift accord

there's a 2004 EX v6 6 speed (191k) with a dent in the door for $2000 here in MN. keep your eyes open. ;)

 

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/d/2003-honda-accord-exl-coupe/6728091478.html


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3 minutes ago, FuzzyYellow said:

there's a 2004 EX v6 6 speed (191k) with a dent in the door for $2000 here in MN. keep your eyes open. ;)

 

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/d/2003-honda-accord-exl-coupe/6728091478.html

Mhmm. Autotrader has a bunch. Filterd within 300 miles, 96 or newer, max price $5000 left 6 options i think. 

 

2004 model caught my eye. K24A3

 

VTEEEEEEEEC


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1 minute ago, vinyldash303 said:

Mhmm. Autotrader has a bunch. Filterd within 300 miles, 96 or newer, max price $5000 left 6 options i think. 

 

2004 model caught my eye. K24A3

 

VTEEEEEEEEC

but J30 tho. 245HP feels soooo nice.  very little MPG difference, but 80HP more, and more torques.


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I use Apple products, and I like it.

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2 minutes ago, vinyldash303 said:

Mhmm. Autotrader has a bunch. Filterd within 300 miles, 96 or newer, max price $5000 left 6 options i think. 

 

2004 model caught my eye. K24A3

 

VTEEEEEEEEC

Thats baby vtec. Need an k20a2 headswap for big dick vtec. 


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34 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

What are the two engines being compared? Compare their BMEP and thermal efficiency.

 

I went from an NA V6(4GR-FSE) to a turbo i4(8AR-FTS). Thought id miss the two cylinders but having max torque at 1600 RPM makes up for it.

The 2 litre ecoboost in the MK3 Focus ST and the F4R in the RS Clios


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5 minutes ago, vetali said:

Thats baby vtec. Need an k20a2 headswap for big dick vtec. 

j30a5 > all    😎

 

boom. I win.


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I use Apple products, and I like it.

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1 minute ago, FuzzyYellow said:

j30a5 > all    😎

 

boom. I win.

j35 exists, therefore false. 


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9 hours ago, iDeFecZx said:

At the end of the day air is getting in and out the cylinder of a turbocharged engine quicker, *this* is what makes them more efficient, it has nothing to do with how much fuel they need to use.

Efficiency is gauging how much output work is done for the input energy. A turbocharged engine will use the same amount of chemical energy to deliver the same performance and thermal energy as a larger bore engine running the same compression ratio, same fuel consumption, same piston travel, and same crankshaft.

 

9 hours ago, iDeFecZx said:

2 litre turbo 4 pot with 250hp, still gets the same fuel economy as my old car yet ive got more power and more torque at all engine speeds despite being the same cylinder capacity and number of cylinders.

That's individual engine design vs individual engine design, not type of engine vs type of engine.

 

And if we're comparing different engines, the Toyota '09 iForce V8 is a far more efficient design than the '00 Dodge V8 magnum. The iForce hits 13-15MPG city, and delivers 381HP and 401ft-lb of torque. The Magnum hits 10-11, and delivers 245HP and 335 ft-lb of torque. Both engines are naturally aspirated, the iForce is a 5.7, the Magnum 5.9.


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1 minute ago, vetali said:

j35 exists, therefore false. 

j35 is less HP per Liter.

 

J35: 271 /  3.5  =  77.4 per liter

J30: 245 / 3.0. =  81.6 per liter

 


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I use Apple products, and I like it.

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2 minutes ago, FuzzyYellow said:

j35 is less HP per Liter.

 

J35: 271 /  3.5  =  77.4 per liter

J30: 245 / 3.0. =  81.6 per liter

 

More torque, and in a pre turbo era honda you'll take whatever torque you can get. 


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Just now, vetali said:

More torque, and in a pre turbo era honda you'll take whatever torque you can get. 

yes, more torque, but not much more per liter. it's like 70.6 vs 72. 

 

The best J-series based on output is actually the J32a3 with 270 HP and 238 lb ft of torque.


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I use Apple products, and I like it.

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16 minutes ago, vetali said:

Thats baby vtec. Need an k20a2 headswap for big dick vtec. 

 

3 minutes ago, FuzzyYellow said:

snip

Still the J32A2 or A3.


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Just now, GDRRiley said:

 

Still the J32A2 or A3.

see above. ;)


I drive a Honda, but i'm a Toyota boy at heart.

I use Apple products, and I like it.

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Just now, FuzzyYellow said:

see above. ;)

I posted it right as you did.


Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between midday and midnight.

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5 minutes ago, FuzzyYellow said:

yes, more torque, but not much more per liter. it's like 70.6 vs 72. 

 

The best J-series based on output is actually the J32a3 with 270 HP and 238 lb ft of torque.

Depends if the new NSX has a J series engine, which surprisingly theres hardly any info on. 


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1 minute ago, vetali said:

Depends if the new NSX has a J series engine, which surprisingly theres hardly any info on. 

I forget that the NSX is technically a normal car. 😂


I drive a Honda, but i'm a Toyota boy at heart.

I use Apple products, and I like it.

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On 10/27/2018 at 12:48 PM, Drak3 said:

So then you're making an explicit point to insult the V8 design.

Oi. No, never mind, you're not getting it. 

21 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Some also recognize that turbo small blocks have almost no practical value in cars because any theoretical space savings is wasted on the turbo, piping, and intercooler, and they're not more efficient.

This I actually agree with. 

21 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Up until the last few years, the Viper had the V10.

 

Dodge/RAM eventually replaced the V10 in trucks with the 5.9 Cummins outright because it could produce similar power while not being an absolute fuel guzzler.

Forced Induction isn't more efficient than natural asperation. Turbo chargers are the more efficient method of FI, but they're still burning the same amount of fuel and air to produce the same amount of power that a naturally asperated engine does.

THIS. THIS EXACTLY!!!!! ^^^^^ This is the exact point myself and many others here have been trying to make in this whole discussion. 

As for fuel efficiency, it depends if we're talking about under load or while cruising. If the power output is the same, theoretically, fuel consumption will also be about the same. 

21 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Which was twisted from force induction small block v large block.

It started as me saying the TT V6 in the Hoonitruck was awesome (IMO) and that it gives the middle finger to V8 fanboys. I meant it as a light-hearted joke/gesture, but it exploded from there, lol. 

 

Addressing everyone: 

 

Let's break this down to the simplest form as I think some of us are not understanding each other and talking about different things. I actually agree with the majority of what @Drak3 has been saying, I just don't think everyone is understanding.

 

If you have 2 different engines with the same power output, in theory; they will both flow the same amount of air and consume the same amount of fuel at peak power output - regardless of displacement or aspiration. What WILL differ between them is how the power is delivered and the rpm range at which that power is produced. Neither is more efficient in terms of fuel consumption AT PEAK POWER OUTPUT. At cruising speed, fuel consumption will depend on a wide range of factors, but generally speaking, and dis-regarding cylinder shut-off features and gearing and assuming constant vehicle weight/aerodynamics, the smaller displacement engine will have lower fuel consumption at cruising speed for the simple fact that it's flowing less air at that point. Also note; it's also producing less power at cruising speed.

 

As for the power efficiency discussion; what we need to understand is VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY. This is simply how effectively the cylinders are filled with fuel and air during the intake cycle. Turbos provide very good volumetric efficiency when operating near 0 vacuum or above atmospheric pressure (when making boost). Below 0 vacuum, they aren't really any better than NA, and can even be worse as the compressor wheel and all the extra piping/intercooler becomes a restriction in the intake. If the turbo is sized appropriately to the engine, it can provide better VE (volumetric efficiency), than an equivalent sized NA engine at cruising speeds, but this doesn't necessarily result in better fuel economy because there's more air flowing, which = more fuel needed or it will run too lean. 

 

Further more, FI (turbo or SC) increases VE across much of the rpm range vs NA which must rely on atmospheric pressure only. This is why, given 2 engines with the same peak power output, one being FI and one being NA, the FI engine will have a wider/more usable power range/band than the NA engine (generally speaking, NOT referring to dyno-queen engines). 

 

There are SO many factors in this whole discussion and I think many of us have been just missing the mark on understanding one another. We're all automotive enthusiasts and I think we can all agree that we all like and prefer different things and that's what keeps communities like this interesting. So how about let's all appreciate that and move on, yes? :) 

 

You can make lots of power in many different ways and all of them are cool and fascinating in their own ways. 


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7 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

Oi. No, never mind, you're not getting it. 

This I actually agree with. 

THIS. THIS EXACTLY!!!!! ^^^^^ This is the exact point myself and many others here have been trying to make in this whole discussion. 

As for fuel efficiency, it depends if we're talking about under load or while cruising. If the power output is the same, theoretically, fuel consumption will also be about the same. 

It started as me saying the TT V6 in the Hoonitruck was awesome (IMO) and that it gives the middle finger to V8 fanboys. I meant it as a light-hearted joke/gesture, but it exploded from there, lol. 

 

Addressing everyone: 

 

Let's break this down to the simplest form as I think some of us are not understanding each other and talking about different things. I actually agree with the majority of what @Drak3 has been saying, I just don't think everyone is understanding.

 

If you have 2 different engines with the same power output, in theory; they will both flow the same amount of air and consume the same amount of fuel at peak power output - regardless of displacement or aspiration. What WILL differ between them is how the power is delivered and the rpm range at which that power is produced. Neither is more efficient in terms of fuel consumption AT PEAK POWER OUTPUT. At cruising speed, fuel consumption will depend on a wide range of factors, but generally speaking, and dis-regarding cylinder shut-off features and gearing and assuming constant vehicle weight/aerodynamics, the smaller displacement engine will have lower fuel consumption at cruising speed for the simple fact that it's flowing less air at that point. Also note; it's also producing less power at cruising speed.

 

As for the power efficiency discussion; what we need to understand is VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY. This is simply how effectively the cylinders are filled with fuel and air during the intake cycle. Turbos provide very good volumetric efficiency when operating near 0 vacuum or above atmospheric pressure (when making boost). Below 0 vacuum, they aren't really any better than NA, and can even be worse as the compressor wheel and all the extra piping/intercooler becomes a restriction in the intake. If the turbo is sized appropriately to the engine, it can provide better VE (volumetric efficiency), than an equivalent sized NA engine at cruising speeds, but this doesn't necessarily result in better fuel economy because there's more air flowing, which = more fuel needed or it will run too lean. 

 

Further more, FI (turbo or SC) increases VE across much of the rpm range vs NA which must rely on atmospheric pressure only. This is why, given 2 engines with the same peak power output, one being FI and one being NA, the FI engine will have a wider/more usable power range/band than the NA engine (generally speaking, NOT referring to dyno-queen engines). 

 

There are SO many factors in this whole discussion and I think many of us have been just missing the mark on understanding one another. We're all automotive enthusiasts and I think we can all agree that we all like and prefer different things and that's what keeps communities like this interesting. So how about let's all appreciate that and move on, yes? :) 

 

You can make lots of power in many different ways and all of them are cool and fascinating in their own ways. 

THANK YOU!!! EXACTLY!


I drive a Honda, but i'm a Toyota boy at heart.

I use Apple products, and I like it.

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5 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

It started as me saying the TT V6 in the Hoonitruck was awesome (IMO) and that it gives the middle finger to V8 fanboys

As a v8 fan, I don't see it as a middle finger; more of Ford dumping marketing money into the overmarketed ecoboost. 


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2 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

We're all automotive enthusiasts

Don't lump me in with them. I'm an enthusiast of mechanic design, be it engines, weaponry, or productive machinery. Not a guy with a wrench that reads the marketing garbage AFE/insert other "enthusiast" brand that can't legally warranty half of their products.

 

4 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

This is the exact point myself and many others here have been trying to make in this whole discussion. 

I fail to see a correlation between people screeching variations of "forced induction is more efficient!!! Reclaimed energy!!!" and anything I've said.


Seagull eat fish. But fish belong to Mafia. Mafia punch seagull for not respecting Mafia. Seagull say "No, please! I have child!"

Mafia punch seagull with child.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Idk how, but the lug nuts on one of my wheels are so stuck that I need to use a jack to be able to loosen them...

 

IMG_20181028_132804097_HDR.thumb.jpg.598724a03c542ab59dee50296f16b260.jpg


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1 minute ago, thegreengamers said:

Idk how, but the lug nuts on one of my wheels are so stuck that I need to use a jack to be able to loosen them...

 

IMG_20181028_132804097_HDR.thumb.jpg.598724a03c542ab59dee50296f16b260.jpg

What were you using to try and get them off? that little dinky tire iron?

 


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23 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Don't lump me in with them. I'm an enthusiast of mechanic design, be it engines, weaponry, or productive machinery. Not a guy with a wrench that reads the marketing garbage AFE/insert other "enthusiast" brand that can't legally warranty half of their products.

 

I fail to see a correlation between people screeching variations of "forced induction is more efficient!!! Reclaimed energy!!!" and anything I've said.

forced induction is more efficient though


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Posted · Original PosterOP · Best Answer
26 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Don't lump me in with them. I'm an enthusiast of mechanic design, be it engines, weaponry, or productive machinery. Not a guy with a wrench that reads the marketing garbage AFE/insert other "enthusiast" brand that can't legally warranty half of their products.

 

I fail to see a correlation between people screeching variations of "forced induction is more efficient!!! Reclaimed energy!!!" and anything I've said.

If you can't be civil. Please leave

 

Edit. That goes for everyone in the thread


====>The car thread<====>Dark Souls thread<====>Placeholder<====
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