Liquid Metal Laptop Cooling – 20C LOWER!

[AlexTheGreatish]

8 hours ago, TicklePickle said:

~snip~

I wouldn't guarantee a 20C drop, although that is normally what happens.  As for the seepage, I would be less concerned about getting it hot and shaking it around at once, more if it's always in your backpack on its side over a year or so it could slowly seep out.  Chances are though this would only be an issue if too much LM was used.

[ninjabiomech]

what do yall think of doing this to a lenovo t430s?

I would think it would be easier than doing it to a macbook.

[Christophe Corazza]

1 hour ago, ninjabiomech said:

what do yall think of doing this to a lenovo t430s?

I would think it would be easier than doing it to a macbook.

 

The heatsink of the Lenovo T420s is completely made of copper (see YouTube video).

Using a liquid metal thermal compound on pure copper... a very bad idea! The gallium of the liquid metal will sacrifice itself, corrode and create a copper-gallium alloy on your heatsink. It will change the thermal performance and at the end - in the best case scenario - you'll get the exact same results with liquid metal as with good thermal compound.

On top of that, this alloy is brittle (many other Gallium alloys are), so it might crack and therefore worsen your thermals.

 

 

[KonkaBass]

so, goin off of ^^ and another hour of research (which led me here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/something-to-think-about-liquid-metal-compatibility-with-copper-heat-sinks.800890/), from what I can gather, using LM on a copper HS, is , in the long term, not actually a good idea.
The only thing LM is "safe" to do is in the de-lidding process where ISH is nickle plated, which wont absorb(alloy with) the gallium in LM.

So does that scrap dreams of super cooling your laptop with LM if you're heat sink isn't nickle plated? For me, probably.
I'm looking for a long-term solution to laptop cooling, as I tire of continuously opening up my laptop to apply TP every few years as it drys and looses it's thermal performance  (obviously dust is an inevitable issue, but at least that might be mitigated through compressed air externally before a teardown is a in order.)

Liquid metal seemed like it could be the dream solution, as it can't dry and murders the thermal conductivity game, but, since my heatsink isn't nickle plated and I don't want the LM to alloy over a few years leaving me with a (probably) less thermally conductive heat sink metal, and the need to teardown and re-apply LM a few times after this absorption process runs it's course, I'm probably going to go with a graphite thermal sheet. Because similar results as fresh thermal compound with none of the eventual drying and performance degradation.
TL:DR long term consistency & reliability > performance

If manufacturers would start nickel plating their heat sink mounting surfaces that would be greaaatt.

*yay first post*

[Christophe Corazza]

19 hours ago, KonkaBass said:

thermal sheet

 

Thermal sheets may have about ten times better conductivity due to being solid material instead of fine metal oxide/graphite/diamond/ceramic particles suspended in a silicone grease, but they will also be about ten times thicker than the amount of paste necessary to fill the gaps between the heatsink and CPU.

At the end of the day, you end up at roughly the same point.

 

The advantage of paste is that you can have just enough to fill any voids while still letting the heatsink make relatively direct contact with the CPU heatspreader. With a thermal sheet, you now have a solid layer of material completely separating your heatsink from the CPU.

[PIRATA!]

Hey guys!

I'd like to have the best out of a desktop solution with air cooling, and as most of good heat-sinks are made of AL...witch is the best thermal compound that IS compatible with AL?

 

Other solution: If I use a pure copper plate I have in my closed when I was OCing with Peltiers and just put it over the CPU with the Thermal Grizzly Liquid Metal Conductonaut, and between the copper plate and the heat-sink use the best AL-compatible thermal compound asked a few lines above (maybe copper thermal compound??)...I should result with having the copper plate being acquiring quite all the heat from the cpu as 1) I'm using the Liquid Metal there, and 2) copper is the best metal to put in contact with cpus....and then from the other side of the copperplate I'll have a wider surface to get in contact with the heat-sink base and its heat-pipes.

 

Stupid idea?? Better the best AL-compatible thermal compound directly between cpu and heat-sink?

 

Thank you.

[AlexTheGreatish]

19 hours ago, PIRATA! said:

Hey guys!

I'd like to have the best out of a desktop solution with air cooling, and as most of good heat-sinks are made of AL...witch is the best thermal compound that IS compatible with AL?

 

Other solution: If I use a pure copper plate I have in my closed when I was OCing with Peltiers and just put it over the CPU with the Thermal Grizzly Liquid Metal Conductonaut, and between the copper plate and the heat-sink use the best AL-compatible thermal compound asked a few lines above (maybe copper thermal compound??)...I should result with having the copper plate being acquiring quite all the heat from the cpu as 1) I'm using the Liquid Metal there, and 2) copper is the best metal to put in contact with cpus....and then from the other side of the copperplate I'll have a wider surface to get in contact with the heat-sink base and its heat-pipes.

 

Stupid idea?? Better the best AL-compatible thermal compound directly between cpu and heat-sink?

 

Thank you.

Pretty much all high performance thermal compounds are within 1C of each other, NT-H1 is my personal favorite because it cleans off easier than other stuff but MX-4, IC-Diamond and whatever else are all good options.

 

You're better off using a chiller than a peltier.

[PIRATA!]

On 7/30/2018 at 7:19 AM, AlexTheGreatish said:

Pretty much all high performance thermal compounds are within 1C of each other, NT-H1 is my personal favorite because it cleans off easier than other stuff but MX-4, IC-Diamond and whatever else are all good options.

 

You're better off using a chiller than a peltier.

Hey Alex, nice to see you replying! I like your interventions in Linus's videos

 

Speaking about the fact, I no longer use Peltier or water cooling, only air. The heat-sinks list from which I'll choose the one I'll use comprehends only copper / nickel-coated copper based ones, si theoretically I could use the Thermal Grizzly Liquid Metal Conductonaut.

You tell me about the NT-H1, but I can't see anywhere its W/mk coefficient for comparison, but only the Specific Gravity that is 2,49 g/cm³...and about which I don't know how to compare to the W/mk.

Speaking about the 1C differences between all different thermal compounds, is this true also putting in the list the Thermal Grizzly Liquid Metal Conductonaut and its AL compatibile brother the Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut thermal grease that has a 12,5 W/mk coefficient? I think the NT-H1 should have a lower one then the Grizzly Kryonaut..

 

Thank you!

[AlexTheGreatish]

4 hours ago, PIRATA! said:

You tell me about the NT-H1, but I can't see anywhere its W/mk coefficient for comparison, but only the Specific Gravity that is 2,49 g/cm³...and about which I don't know how to compare to the W/mk.

The thing about thermal compounds is that thermal conductivity is only part of the equation.  I'm pretty sure that NT-H1 has a relatively high thermal conductivity, but it is really great at getting only in the small cracks between the IHS and heatsink instead of creating a boundary, meaning the performance is comparable with other compounds.  It does seem like in Tom's Hardware testing Kryonaut is the best non-LM paste though, but just by a tiny bit.

[Dversity]

I wonder how this would work on my NUC Hades Canyon HVK. Liquid metal on both GPU and CPU would probably be awesome. I've already clocked it to 4.3GHz, and it sometimes goes as high as 90 degrees celsius when gaming. 

[PIRATA!]

On 7/31/2018 at 7:07 PM, AlexTheGreatish said:

The thing about thermal compounds is that thermal conductivity is only part of the equation.  I'm pretty sure that NT-H1 has a relatively high thermal conductivity, but it is really great at getting only in the small cracks between the IHS and heatsink instead of creating a boundary, meaning the performance is comparable with other compounds.  It does seem like in Tom's Hardware testing Kryonaut is the best non-LM paste though, but just by a tiny bit.

Well, I have seen your review with Linus where you show the equation description. About that, as you have understood it well (plus the fact that now you know all the variables of the case..), it would be great to have it written down here (and maybe explained? ) so for us to have it clear once and definitely for using it while we calculate cpu Watt dissipation 

 

About testing Kryonaut, I have read as well that it is considered by far the best not-LM paste.

You say that the NT-H1 is "great at getting only in the small cracks between the IHS and heatsink instead of creating a boundary, meaning the performance is comparable with other compounds" .....<<< do you mean that the NT-H1 paste is so "thin" that you just need a drop of it just for filling the mighty-small-tiny-cracks that are on the cpu IHS and on the base of the heat-sink...without creating any "partition film" (even if tiny) between the two surfaces??

 

In case yes...in your opinion...could the Kryonaut do the same?? 

 

About using the LM paste instead in between cpu and heat-sink (copper based!)...and assuming that I would apply the exact correct amount of it... >>>> the BEST idea would it still be the one in using the NT-H1 (or Kryonaut)?? If so...why?!? Isn't the "applying procedure" of the LM the most difficult part of using it?? As I have assumed that I'll apply it correctly (it's just an assumption  ), I would think that there aren't any other reason for NOT using any LM paste.

Will maybe be the "welding" problem one other possible big one?? I'm speaking about when the cpu welds to the heat-sink as the LM gets old (confirmet by several LM reviews), possibly causing dangerous situations once the heat-sink should be removed for any reason.

 

Thank you!

[Amaranth]

On 7/3/2018 at 11:41 AM, Christophe Corazza said:

Using a liquid metal thermal compound on pure copper... a very bad idea! The gallium of the liquid metal will sacrifice itself, corrode and create a copper-gallium alloy on your heatsink. It will change the thermal performance and at the end - in the best case scenario - you'll get the exact same results with liquid metal as with good thermal compound....

 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:10 PM, KonkaBass said:

I don't want the LM to alloy over a few years leaving me with a (probably) less thermally conductive heat sink metal, and the need to teardown and re-apply LM a few times after this absorption process runs it's course...

 

5 hours ago, PIRATA! said:

 I'm speaking about when the cpu welds to the heat-sink as the LM gets old (confirmet by several LM reviews), possibly causing dangerous situations once the heat-sink should be removed for any reason.

 

Those saying that using liquid metal on bare copper will have negative long-term consequences are mostly incorrect. While some types of older liquid metal pastes can be prone to hardening if exposed to air due to an improper application that doesn't degrade the integrity of the copper itself or the thermal performance of the heatsink - as seen in this quote from the legendary Der8auer talking about Conductonaut:

 

" If you have a naked copper surface on the CPU waterblock for example, some of the parts of the liquid metal are building an alloy with the copper, and then it's hardening over time. Indium and tin, which are usually a part of the liquid metal, will form an alloy on top of the cooler. Which is not going to make performance worse, but it will lead the liquid metal to harden..."

 

Personally I haven't had any issues running Conductonaut long-term, my preferred liquid metal, and haven't seen any build-up or temperature loss after years of use. Nor have any of the other long-term liquid metal enthusiasts I know who are well versed on proper application and use. Also, to the poster who considered using a graphite pad, those do not perform well in low mounting pressure situations like laptops and you're going to be looking at much worse temperatures than a low quality traditional paste (plus they're conductive so you have all of the risk of liquid metal without any of the benefits).

[Amaranth]

On 7/31/2018 at 1:07 PM, AlexTheGreatish said:

It does seem like in Tom's Hardware testing Kryonaut is the best non-LM paste though, but just by a tiny bit.

 

The other main benefit of Kryonaut, aside from it usually performing a few degrees better than the composition, is the longevity of applications. And how well it does on direct-die GPU cooling where it performs on-par with most liquid metals due to the larger die size (thus far I've not seen another traditional paste match it). Plus it wont scratch the die or heatsink surface like IC Diamond will... Though that's really only great when you have a warped surface and I wouldn't recommend it otherwise.

 

MX-4 and NT-H1 are good options if you want something cheaper than Thermal Grizzly's stuff and don't mind loosing a few degrees, although I would still recommend Kryonaut for direct GPU dies over either of those. 

 

On 6/19/2018 at 1:12 PM, AlexTheGreatish said:

...more if it's always in your backpack on its side over a year or so it could slowly seep out.  Chances are though this would only be an issue if too much LM was used.

 

Yeah, unless you've used entirely too much liquid metal 'pump out' is rarely an issue as they all have very high surface tension and don't like seeping or running once in place (that's one reason you have to apply liquid metal to both the die and the bottom of the heatsink or IHS to ensure good contact - because otherwise it wouldn't even want to bridge that small of a gap).

[PIRATA!]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:34 AM, Amaranth said:

Those saying that using liquid metal on bare copper will have negative long-term consequences are mostly incorrect. While some types of older liquid metal pastes can be prone to hardening if exposed to air due to an improper application that doesn't degrade the integrity of the copper itself or the thermal performance of the heatsink - as seen in this quote from the legendary Der8auer talking about Conductonaut:

 

" If you have a naked copper surface on the CPU waterblock for example, some of the parts of the liquid metal are building an alloy with the copper, and then it's hardening over time. Indium and tin, which are usually a part of the liquid metal, will form an alloy on top of the cooler. Which is not going to make performance worse, but it will lead the liquid metal to harden..."

 

Personally I haven't had any issues running Conductonaut long-term, my preferred liquid metal, and haven't seen any build-up or temperature loss after years of use. Nor have any of the other long-term liquid metal enthusiasts I know who are well versed on proper application and use. Also, to the poster who considered using a graphite pad, those do not perform well in low mounting pressure situations like laptops and you're going to be looking at much worse temperatures than a low quality traditional paste (plus they're conductive so you have all of the risk of liquid metal without any of the benefits).

So that alloy that forms after some time is indeed a helpful thing? Is it because it strongest the transition of the heat when the LM tends to dry? 

 

What about the tense sensation that most say will encounter when removing the heat-sink, that most say that it could damage the socket if trying to remove one that is toughly alloyed to the cpu??

 

On 8/4/2018 at 10:40 AM, Amaranth said:

 

The other main benefit of Kryonaut, aside from it usually performing a few degrees better than the composition, is the longevity of applications. And how well it does on direct-die GPU cooling where it performs on-par with most liquid metals due to the larger die size (thus far I've not seen another traditional paste match it). Plus it wont scratch the die or heatsink surface like IC Diamond will... Though that's really only great when you have a warped surface and I wouldn't recommend it otherwise.

 

MX-4 and NT-H1 are good options if you want something cheaper than Thermal Grizzly's stuff and don't mind loosing a few degrees, although I would still recommend Kryonaut for direct GPU dies over either of those. 

 

 

Yeah, unless you've used entirely too much liquid metal 'pump out' is rarely an issue as they all have very high surface tension and don't like seeping or running once in place (that's one reason you have to apply liquid metal to both the die and the bottom of the heatsink or IHS to ensure good contact - because otherwise it wouldn't even want to bridge that small of a gap).

So Kryonaut is best on gpus as the die of the cpu permits mush exposure in using "caution" compounds as LM?

 

And about applying the LM on both sides...is it a "to-do" thing also between a regular cpu and a copper-based heat-sink, or only or a delidded cpu just before applying back the die?? 

 

 

Thank you!

[Amaranth]

On 8/5/2018 at 2:25 PM, PIRATA! said:

So that alloy that forms after some time is indeed a helpful thing? Is it because it strongest the transition of the heat when the LM tends to dry?

 

It's not harmful or helpful, it's just a naturally occurring process that can be annoying to clean off surfaces but otherwise doesn't cause any problems. Ideally your liquid metal should stay in liquid form but the alloy shouldn't hurt your heat transfer if it forms.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 2:25 PM, PIRATA! said:

What about the tense sensation that most say will encounter when removing the heat-sink, that most say that it could damage the socket if trying to remove one that is toughly alloyed to the cpu??

 

It's not sticking the die to the IHS/heatsink and doesn't form a strong bond so you shouldn't see any damage when removing something to inspect and refresh a liquid metal application.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 2:25 PM, PIRATA! said:

So Kryonaut is best on gpus as the die of the cpu permits mush exposure in using "caution" compounds as LM?

 

It's more than Kryonaut performs just as well, within a few degrees usually, of liquid metal on desktop GPU dies and so there isn't any reason to risk liquid metal unless you absolutely need every degree you can get. So for your average user there isn't any benefit from using it on a desktop GPU die as opposed to something that is less risky.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 2:25 PM, PIRATA! said:

And about applying the LM on both sides...is it a "to-do" thing also between a regular cpu and a copper-based heat-sink, or only or a delidded cpu just before applying back the die?? 

 

You'll need to do that any time you use liquid metal as it has a very high surface tension and doesn't like bridging gaps.

[sisblub]

On 2/20/2018 at 11:43 AM, AlexTheGreatish said:

Buy Liquid Metal
On Amazon: http://geni.us/rlrP
On Newegg: http://geni.us/4GcR

 

Can the lower temps of liquid metal be worth the chance of bricking your laptop?

 

Thanks so much for this, quick question, how often do I have to repaste using liquid metal? I was told it needs a yearly repaste, thank you in advance!

[porina]

To revive this thread somewhat, who's done liquid metal in their laptops? Is it still working great?

 

Following this video I did do my laptop. Didn't think more of it until the laptop stopped booting for unknown hardware fault. I don't have proof it was related to the liquid metal, but was something I had done recently so it may be a contributing factor.

 

To the point of this post, I had a spare delidded desktop CPU on my desk for a while now. It's in the little plastic holder Intel use, no IHS. It had previously had liquid metal application on it which was still on the die. While doing other stuff, I knocked it off the desk and it landed on the floor. On picking it up, I saw a tiny spot of LM on the container. The fall must have dislodged it. The speculation now is, if there was any excess at all in my application on the laptop, could moving the laptop around have dislodged some, and it made its way around and caused problem? Again, no proof of this, but something to think about.

 

I find application of liquid metal to be somewhat delicate. First few times I was too sparing and it wasn't enough for good contact. So you need a bit more... but how much gets to too much? It's a fine line. On a desktop application, you don't move it much (unless lan party system?) so I think that remains low risk. With more paranoia, maybe reseal the IHS to help contain any potential migration. Not really realistic for a laptop use though...

[Amaranth]

On 10/26/2018 at 7:45 AM, porina said:

To revive this thread somewhat, who's done liquid metal in their laptops? Is it still working great?

I've had liquid metal on systems for years and have yet to loose a degree or have any problems.

 

On 10/26/2018 at 7:45 AM, porina said:

...if there was any excess at all in my application on the laptop, could moving the laptop around have dislodged some, and it made its way around and caused problem?

That is unlikely unless you used entirely too much, I've tried to get liquid metal to move off of a laptop die before to test how much of an issue that would be and the only time I saw any movement was when there had been a bad application. But then I also am very meticulous about how I apply the paste and literally paint it on the die.

 

 

On 10/26/2018 at 7:45 AM, porina said:

...maybe reseal the IHS to help contain any potential migration.

The downside to this is that you run hotter than if you were using a floating die.

[porina]

1 hour ago, Amaranth said:

I've had liquid metal on systems for years and have yet to loose a degree or have any problems.

How many are laptops?

1 hour ago, Amaranth said:

That is unlikely unless you used entirely too much, I've tried to get liquid metal to move off of a laptop die before to test how much of an issue that would be and the only time I saw any movement was when there had been a bad application. But then I also am very meticulous about how I apply the paste and literally paint it on the die.

I find the line between not enough and too much to be very fine. With non-conductive pastes it is easier to go a little heavy, but "just right" amount is difficult.

 

1 hour ago, Amaranth said:

The downside to this is that you run hotter than if you were using a floating die.

Not necessarily. Only if you do it badly.

[Amaranth]

49 minutes ago, porina said:

How many are laptops?

I currently have three laptops with long-term liquid metal applications and two desktops, and I've repasted more for friends/customers.

 

49 minutes ago, porina said:

With non-conductive pastes it is easier to go a little heavy, but "just right" amount is difficult.

Very true, with traditional paste it's almost impossible to use too much - but liquid metal has a rather unique application that is rather different than anything else.

 

49 minutes ago, porina said:

 

Not necessarily. Only if you do it badly.

Even when done perfectly you're still going to loose at least 2-3c on average, particularly if you're using an aftermarket IHS.

[nosauce]

On 2/20/2018 at 9:32 PM, Amaranth said:

...For two years I traveled almost daily with my Alienware 13 R3 and my X230, both repasted, and neither of the laptops has had any problems despite being hauled around (sometimes rather roughly). Likewise iUnlock, a noted repaster who has made several guides for those wishing to try it themselves, regularly flies with his Alienware 14 R4 and has never had any issues with movement despite all the bumps and bangs associated with air travel. I have also tried to test the danger by violently shaking a spare delidded processor for an extended period of time and, despite my best efforts, I have yet to see any Conductonaut come off of the die in any scenario other than when I deliberately used too much in order to simulate a poor repaste.

Thank you so much for your insights.

- How often do you need to repaste with LM?

- How thin should the layer be? Like spray paint on a surface?

- Where did you get your clear, acrylic nail polish? Most of the search hits I get say "acrylic nail" and doesn't say what the nail polish is made of.

 

Thanks!

[Amaranth]

On 11/21/2018 at 1:23 PM, nosauce said:

- How often do you need to repaste with LM?

If you do a proper job initially, years.

 

Quote

- How thin should the layer be? Like spray paint on a surface?

It should be as thin as you can get it - I literally paint the liquid metal onto the die when I'm doing a repaste or delid (although make sure to cover both the die and the bottom of whatever is going to contact the die for optimal results).

 

Quote

- Where did you get your clear, acrylic nail polish? Most of the search hits I get say "acrylic nail" and doesn't say what the nail polish is made of.

I would get something like this if you can.

[nosauce]

Got it! Thank you so much!

[Amaranth]

36 minutes ago, nosauce said:

Got it! Thank you so much!

No problem, feel free to ask if you have any more questions!

[nosauce]

On 2/22/2018 at 12:44 PM, Amaranth said:

I would not use liquid metal on any Razer Blade product since they have a mixed copper-aluminum heatsink and liquid metal should never be used with aluminum.

My laptop is the...

HP Spectre x360 - 15-df0068nr (Late 2018) - 8565U cpu, MX150 gpu

 

You post above made me wonder if my heatsink has any aluminum in it. I created a thread over at NoteBookReview regarding this: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/what-is-my-laptops-heatsink-made-out-of-copper-or-aluminum-copper-alloy.825975/#post-10823177

 

One reply suggests that there is not such thing as aluminum-copper alloy, and that the plates that touches the DI is copper but the rest of the heatsink (like the fins that are connected to the pipes) may be made of aluminum. In this case since the LM touches only copper, I think I should be fine. However according to some websites it seems that some manufactures use aluminum-copper alloys. Mine is clearly copper colored. Is there a way to make sure there's no aluminum in it?