Tek Syndicate Audio Myths with @MayflowerElectronics

[afa7336]

You guys are giving me data that doesn't matter, and you're missing it. I am asking for specific data from a test that Mayflower used to base his statements on. That is the data between Motherboards vs. Soundcards vs. USB DACS. Anything else is just a waste of data. Its simple as that. I am sorry if you feel that is hard to understand, I do, but I need the data sets he has if I am to believe that any benefits I am perceiving is caused by a placebo effect. This isn't to dismiss his claims, or yours, this is for MY personal benefit.

[Canoas]

Are you claiming the opposite of what he is claiming? That Sound cards do make a difference?

Yes they do. Every audio codec has a specified SNR rating, and you can very easily check which one your motherboard uses. If your motherboard's audio codec has an an output SNR under 100 then noise becomes audible, and as such a sound card like the xonar will indeed make a difference as it will have a better SNR rating. The input SNR is usually even lower, and a mid-range motherboard will have a bad enough input SNR that warrants the purchase of a sound-card. If you're doing proper recordings, such as for youtube videos, then you will need a sound-card even if you have a 10000$ DAC-Amp combo unless you have a higher-end motherboard.

So, with that said, anyone who claims a soundcard is not better than on-board audio either knows nothing about the subject or is a sell-out with another agenda.

[TofuAce]

You guys are giving me data that doesn't matter, and you're missing it. I am asking for specific data from a test that Mayflower used to base his statements on. That is the data between Motherboards vs. Soundcards vs. USB DACS. Anything else is just a waste of data. Its simple as that. I am sorry if you feel that is hard to understand, I do, but I need the data sets he has if I am to believe that any benefits I am perceiving is caused by a placebo effect. This isn't to dismiss his claims, or yours, this is for MY personal benefit.

 

I don't know or frankly care what Mayflower used to base his arguments on. The argument can rest on its own without bringing Mayflower (Logan, or Linus or any individual person) in on it no matter their position happens to be in all of this.

 

I do not see any reason to not use what other data has been forwarded here by others.

 

Are you trying to get to the bottom of the argument, or simply want to disprove Mayflower only? I believe most looking in on this thread are more interested in knowing more about the subject overall. Even if Mayflower doesn't have a level of evidence that satisfies your standards... others might and have submitted it already here and in other threads. And if he does, then great... either way I only care about the subject matter at hand.

[Canoas]

I don't know or frankly care what Mayflower used to base his arguments on. The argument can rest on its own without bringing Mayflower (Logan, or Linus or any individual person) in on it no matter their position happens to be in all of this.

 

I do not see any reason to not use what other data has been forwarded here by others.

 

Are you trying to get to the bottom of the argument, or simply want to disprove Mayflower only? I believe most looking in on this thread are more interested in knowing more about the subject overall. Even if Mayflower doesn't have a level of evidence that satisfies your standards... others might and have submitted it already here and in other threads. And if he does, then great... either way I only care about the subject matter at hand.

Audio codecs have specifications, specially the input and output SNR. Some modern motherboards have a bad enough SNR that validates the use of a soundcard. Saying otherwise is asinine. So no, the argument cannot rest on it's own. The only way for such a claim to be valid is by knowing which motherboard is being compared against which soundcard. If I wanted to properly record something I would need to get a soundcard even though my motherboard is only a year old and has a pretty decent audio codec. For listening it's enough for me as I don't notice any noise during casual usage so a soundcard is not needed, but neither is a dac-amp. If I do need to upgrade in order to drive a higher impedance headphones then I will almost surely get a soundcard instead.

[afa7336]

I don't know or frankly care what Mayflower used to base his arguments on. The argument can rest on its own without bringing Mayflower (Logan, or Linus or any individual person) in on it no matter their position happens to be in all of this.

 

I do not see any reason to not use what other data has been forwarded here by others.

 

Are you trying to get to the bottom of the argument, or simply want to disprove Mayflower only? I believe most looking in on this thread are more interested in knowing more about the subject overall. Even if Mayflower doesn't have a level of evidence that satisfies your standards... others might and have submitted it already here and in other threads. And if he does, then great... either way I only care about the subject matter at hand.

 

Mayflower made the statements, and you're saying it doesn't matter? Wow. And no, the argument can NOT rest on its own, because there is NO data to show what I am asking. Hell, we don't even have tests from RMAA to back up these claims. I've seen a few, albeit older ones, that show huge differences in Motherboard vs Soundcard. Want links? I see how you roll now, though. If others have it, show me. No one has shown me the data, not you anyway. And its not just my standard, it is an international standard really. You know, when tests are run, there is a certain standard you have to meet. Guess you aren't aware of that. Anyway, if he wants to give the data fine. How many times do I have to say, this isn't an attack on him, I've made that clear several times. Do you even read what I type, or skim it. I've only said it three times now. This is because of my experiences, I want to see how he is basing that everything is a placebo effect. I get you believe it, but blind faith and data are two different things.

 

Use my example above with the 120hz monitor and you'll see why I want the data. 

[TofuAce]

Audio codecs have specifications, specially the input and output SNR. Some modern motherboards have a bad enough SNR that validates the use of a soundcard. Saying otherwise is asinine. So no, the argument cannot rest on it's own. The only way for such a claim to be valid is by knowing which motherboard is being compared against which soundcard. If I wanted to properly record something I would need to get a soundcard even though my motherboard is only a year old and has a pretty decent audio codec. For listening it's enough for me as I don't notice any noise during casual usage so a soundcard is not needed, but neither is a dac-amp. If I do need to upgrade in order to drive a higher impedance headphones then I will almost surely get a soundcard instead.

 

No need for the attitude.

 

When I said the argument can rest on its own, i was referring to basing the argument on what has been said, not by who said it. I wasn't claiming the argument needs no evidence to back it up and to just take it on heresay. 

 

Also comparison of the Realtek alc889 to whatever else has already been done to death by @mr moose (or perhaps someone else, I forget). They can get into it again with you if they feel the need. Or you can look it up at your leisure.

[Canoas]

No need for the attitude.

 

When I said the argument can rest on its own, i was referring to basing the argument on what has been said, not by who said it. I wasn't claiming the argument needs no evidence to back it up and to just take it on heresay. 

 

Also comparison of the Realtek alc889 to whatever else has already been done to death by @mr moose (or perhaps someone else, I forget). They can get into it again with you if they feel the need. Or you can look it up at your leisure.

What attitude? The exact same attitude you're displaying?

 

And afa7336 was asking you for "what has been said", and you provided nothing. So far you're basing the argument on absolutely nothing.

 

There's no need to ask anyone else for a comparison, as I already stated everything is well documented, all the codecs have specifications. Anyone can easily compare them, only someone who knows nothing about the subject would make the type of argument you're defending.

[TofuAce]

Mayflower made the statements, and you're saying it doesn't matter? Wow. And no, the argument can NOT rest on its own, because there is NO data to show what I am asking. Hell, we don't even have tests from RMAA to back up these claims. I've seen a few, albeit older ones, that show huge differences in Motherboard vs Soundcard. Want links? I see how you roll now, though. If others have it, show me. No one has shown me the data, not you anyway. And its not just my standard, it is an international standard really. You know, when tests are run, there is a certain standard you have to meet. Guess you aren't aware of that. Anyway, if he wants to give the data fine. How many times do I have to say, this isn't an attack on him, I've made that clear several times. Do you even read what I type, or skim it. I've only said it three times now. This is because of my experiences, I want to see how he is basing that everything is a placebo effect. I get you believe it, but blind faith and data are two different things.

 

Use my example above with the 120hz monitor and you'll see why I want the data. 

 

If my estranged father came up to me randomly one day and said, "The sky is blue!" would I argue against the point simply because the person it comes from has been wrong in the past? I can be skeptical, but that is not the only evidence I need to simply rule the argument, "The sky is blue" as wrong.

The way I see it, there has been links to video, interviews, and various articles in this thread and back in the Audio Forum FAQ. You have said nothing about it other than "It's not what I'm asking for." The data and argument can easily be separated from any one individual, so why not argue what really matters... the actual argument. If Mayflower can provide further evidence then that is even better. But he is not the only one here arguing this point in the audio forum.

 

I'm not trying to hide Mayflower from you or anyone here. I am simply stating that even IF we can dismiss Mayflower as a source, the argument is not defeated. The argument has been around before Logans Video and Mayflowers guest appearance.

 

If it were only Mayflower here arguing, and no one else provided any material to analyse then you two are perfectly within your right to end the argument with the lack of Mayflowers evidence. But that is not what is here in this thread.

 

Why don't you examine the Audio FAQ, and everything that has been said here in this thread before simply brushing it aside and only looking for what Mayflower has to say.

[Canoas]

I'm not trying to hide Mayflower from you or anyone here. I am simply stating that even IF we can dismiss Mayflower as a source, the argument is not defeated. The argument has been around before Logans Video and Mayflowers guest appearance.

WE DON'T CARE WHAT MAYFLOWER HAS SAID. THAT IS NOT WHAT ANYONE IS ASKING FOR. WHAT WE WANT IS THE EVIDENCE YOU'RE BASING THE ARGUMENT ON.

[TofuAce]

WE DON'T CARE WHAT MAYFLOWER HAS SAID. THAT IS NOT WHAT ANYONE IS ASKING FOR. WHAT WE WANT IS THE EVIDENCE YOU'RE BASING THE ARGUMENT ON.

 

 

Mayflower made the statements, and you're saying it doesn't matter? Wow. 

 

Check the previous posts in the thread. It would stand to reason that any piece of evidence which is not valid, can easily be shown as to why it can not be directly taken as evidence. Preferably individually, so as to not overlook a single piece.

 

As for the quality and weight of each media link before in this thread and other threads related to the logan/mayflower video's... again there has not been a specific scientific study directly comparing all three DAC versions commonly found in modern pc's (USB External, Internal Card, and onboard much less individual models and brands). You will not find anything on the order of evidence required to show effective and safe usage of a new drug (Previous example used was medical double blind study) or enough to stand up to peer review in a scientific journal (I used the journal Nature as an example earlier).

 

I don't know how I could be possibly more fair in this argument. I have no made personal attacks unlike you Canoas (calling an opposing argument "asinine", or simply stating my "type of argument" can only come from someone who knows nothing on the subject.) I have not attacked either one of you or your amount of knowledge on this or any subject.

 

Let's keep it a clean fight people.  :lol:

 

Again, I haven't seen either one of you review any previously posted links and media in this thread. Much less the other threads this one has spun off of when it comes to the recent Logan/Mayflower videos (I think only two so far, yes?)

[Canoas]

Check the previous posts in the thread. It would stand to reason that any piece of evidence which is not valid, can easily be shown as to why it can not be directly taken as evidence.

 

As for the quality and weight of each media link before in this thread and other threads related to the logan/mayflower video's... again there has not been a specific scientific study directly comparing all three DAC versions commonly found in modern pc's (USB External, Internal Card, and onboard). You will not find anything on the order of evidence required to show effective and safe usage of a new drug (Previous example used was medical double blind study) or enough to stand up to peer review in a scientific journal (I used the journal Nature as an example earlier).

 

I don't know how I could be possibly more fair in this argument. I have no made personal attacks (calling an opposing argument "asinine", or simply stating my "type of argument" can only come from someone who knows nothing on the subject.) I have not attacked either one of you or your amount of knowledge on this or any subject.

 

Let's keep it a clean fight boys.

 

Again, I haven't seen either one of you review any previously posted links and media in this thread. Much less the other threads this one has spun off of when it comes to the recent Logan/Mayflower videos (I think only two so far, yes?)

So basically you have no evidence to back up your claims?

Also, I never asked for a scientific paper or a peer-reviwed study, I just want the evidence you guys are basing your arguments on.

[TofuAce]

So basically you have no evidence to back up your claims?

Also, I never asked for a scientific paper or a peer-reviwed study, I just want the evidence you guys are basing your arguments on.

 

afa7336 did. I'm starting to have doubts that you have read this thread in its entirety. Also I'm saying there is no scientific paper or peer-reviewed study. Even afa7336 said this themself. I stated earlier that no matter the lengths that were taken by Mayflower or his source, it would not be nearly as detailed and verifiable as afa7336 was asking.

 

This was as recent as the previous page... a few hours ago at most!

[Canoas]

afa7336 did. I'm starting to have doubts that you have read this thread in its entirety. Also I'm saying there is no scientific paper or peer-reviewed study. Even afa7336 said this themself. I stated earlier that no matter the lengths that were taken by Mayflower or his source, it would not be nearly as detailed and verifiable as afa7336 was asking.

 

This was as recent as the previous page... a few hours ago at most!

I skimmed through it, couldn't find anything. I'm not going to properly read several threads with the hopes of finding a link that contains meaningful evidence. It would take me half an hour to do so, yet to you it'd take much less than the time you've spent on your last few replies as you're claiming you already know where the evidence is.

Post the links or at least the page instead of making post after post with nothing but meaningless statements.

[ShearMe]

[TofuAce]

I skimmed through it, couldn't find anything. I'm not going to properly read several threads with the hopes of finding a link that contains meaningful evidence. It would take me half an hour to do so, yet to you it'd take much less than the time you've spent on your last few replies as you're claiming you already know where the evidence is.

Post the links or at least the page instead of making post after post with nothing but meaningless statements.

 

What I said was in the previous page! It was about the topic of placebo. It can't possibly take you half an hour to look at the previous page of this thread or click on my name and see my previous post. You can also look in the Audio Board FAQ sticky. I've said this all before.

 

If you simply "skimmed" through this... how can you possibly chime in on the current argument?

 

No one that i've seen in here is arguing the audio codec for input is better with onboard than soundcards/external. This itself shows you do not know what is being argued in this thread. OUTPUT... we are talking about OUTPUT.

 

We are also not saying motherboard trumps soundcard in EVERY single case known to modern man!

 

We are saying usually with modern motherboard chipsets spending the extra money for an additional soundcard will not improve sound, and if it would it is a diminished return compared to investing in a pair of headphones for example. This obviously does not hold true if the motherboard chipset is damaged or not operating correctly. Issues can also arise when not using optimal driver/firmware. Sometimes companies mess up and send out bad code.

 

The audio board also isn't stating you need an external dac/amp to improve sound quality over the motherboard, even if the motherboard is what we consider modern. Those who would I disagree with so why would I argue their point?

 

Are there exceptions? OF COURSE! But we are talking in general terms that would affect the largest swath of people with current hardware. Everything you argued before completely ignored this since you havn't been following the arguments here.

 

You simply dismissed the alc898, which has an OUTPUT SNR of 110db listed. And although we are only talking about output, the input is also at 104db. This is listed here. There are others in the realtek family that have over 100 snr for OUTPUT. Again we are talking about OUTPUT here, not INPUT.

 

 Again, we are not talking about comparing every single motherboard and sound card designed in the history of man. This has been focused on the most modern motherboards that have recently been out. Qualifiers that you would know IF you've been following the argument other than simply skimming.

[Canoas]

What I said was in the previous page! It was about the topic of placebo. It can't possibly take you half an hour to look at the previous page of this thread or click on my name and see my previous post. You can also look in the Audio Board FAQ sticky. I've said this all before.

The placebo effect does exist, no one questions that, but no one posted any evidence that suggests that pretty much everyone who gets a sound card notices a difference in audio quality due to the placebo effect and yet when people buy external dac-amp there's no placebo effect involved.

 

Again, if you know where it is just quote it. I honestly couldn't find it.

[TofuAce]

The placebo effect does exist, no one questions that, but no one posted any evidence that suggests that pretty much everyone who gets a sound card notices a difference in audio quality due to the placebo effect and yet when people buy external dac-amp there's no placebo effect involved.

 

Again, if you know where it is just quote it. I honestly couldn't find it.

 

Another strawman argument. It would be better if you read the thread and joined in on the real argument instead of making one up and demanding I defend it.

 

You also have nothing to say about the rest of that post you quoted? Nothing at all?

[Vic9mm]

Wow all this over sound...Why can't you guy/girls agree to disagree with each other and call it a day. Nobody here is going to change their minds on this matter period. If you like sound cards great if you don't great.

[TofuAce]

Wow all this over sound...Why can't you guy/girls agree to disagree with each other and call it a day. Nobody here is going to change their minds on this matter period. If you like sound cards great if you don't great.

 

 

[Theo]

Wow all this over sound...Why can't you guy/girls agree to disagree with each other and call it a day. Nobody here is going to change their minds on this matter period. If you like sound cards great if you don't great.

Agree to disagree? Over the internet? Are you drunk? WE CANT HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS ON A SUBJECT

[eshbop]

Agree to disagree? Over the internet? Are you drunk? WE CANT HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS ON A SUBJECT

That'd be going against the rules of the internet! lol

 

 

All I'm going to say is that these videos are aimed at a particular audience, when any generalizations are made it's appropriate given that audience.

[Canoas]

Another strawman argument. Why don't you read the thread and join the argument instead of making one up and demanding I defend it.

 

You also have nothing to say about the rest of that post you quoted? Nothing at all?

I did read the thread, and that was basically the argument. Feel free to word it better though.

 

Also, when I quoted that was it, did you edit it afterwards? Anyway, I'll read it now.

 

I never said you were talking about input.

I never said you claimed all on-board audio was better.

I never dismissed the alc898, I said that motherboards with higher end on-board audio codecs will not benefit from a soundcard, but medium-range motherboards will indeed improve quality for certain applications or as a replacement for certain audio codecs.

Here's a simple table with the codecs btw: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/printpage/Audio-Codec-Comparison-Table/520

 

What I'm saying is, claiming soundcards are generally bad is completely wrong. They're not and it's not hard to tell when they are in-fact needed. However, everyone is claiming it's mostly placebo effect when it comes to soundcards, and yet no one says the same thing about external dacs/amps even though in every single thread here everyone suggests external dacs/amps when they're clearly not needed. It is not correct to claim that a soundcard is usually useless when the exact same thing applies to the external solutions. They're all in the same boat. If a soundcard is sounding better due to the placebo effect then if you get an external dac/amp the same exact thing will happen, the sound is not going to magically be better with a dac/amp if the on-board audio is already good enough. That is simply not a valid argument.

And that is why I'm asking, what evidence do you have that suggests sound quality improvement with a soundcard is usually due to the placebo effect but external solutions have no placebo effect involved?

[Canoas]

Wow all this over sound...Why can't you guy/girls agree to disagree with each other and call it a day. Nobody here is going to change their minds on this matter period. If you like sound cards great if you don't great.

 

Agree to disagree? Over the internet? Are you drunk? WE CANT HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS ON A SUBJECT

 

What you are not considering is that a lot of people are wasting real money on this. Costly solutions are constantly being suggested to people on the forums when they're simply not needed. Maybe to you guys it doesn't make a difference as you didn't waste any money on it, but it does matter to those who waste dozens or even hundreds of dollars due to bad advice. Remember that this is a forum where people come ask for advice on what they should purchase, not just some random youtube video comment section.

[mike88931]

I'm not going to pretend I had time to read every post on this behemoth of an article, but it seems (judging from the decent amount I have skimmed over) that a conclusion has not yet been made. If I am wrong, please do feel free to correct me, I promise I won't cry.

 

However, I would also like to hear what LInus has to say to this as well. I bought a xonar essence stx to go with my HD 600 headphones based on his recommendation and the trust that I felt he had earned. To see such a stark opposite recommendation come out of Logan, who I also happened to like a lot, was quite surprising. Someone dropped the bucket here and I would really like to know who. I don't mean to throw any more guts in the shark tank but I really am not happy with the fact someone has obviously been a bit misleading (or more than a bit) with their choice of words, whether it was their intent or not. I can't believe with how many experts I thought hung around here, that nobody has been able to provide raw data/facts to prove one way or another what the truth really is. I realize that audio is largely subjective but there must be some way right? 

 

Again, not to be rude, but I would appreciate a response to clear this up once and for all. 

[eshbop]

I'm not going to pretend I had time to read every post on this behemoth of an article, but it seems (judging from the decent amount I have skimmed over) that a conclusion has not yet been made. If I am wrong, please do feel free to correct me, I promise I won't cry.

 

However, I would also like to hear what LInus has to say to this as well. I bought a xonar essence stx to go with my HD 600 headphones based on his recommendation and the trust that I felt he had earned. To see such a stark opposite recommendation come out of Logan, who I also happened to like a lot, was quite surprising. Someone dropped the bucket here and I would really like to know who. I don't mean to throw any more guts in the shark tank but I really am not happy with the fact someone has obviously been a bit misleading (or more than a bit) with their choice of words, whether it was their intent or not. I can't believe with how many experts I thought hung around here, that nobody has been able to provide raw data/facts to prove one way or another what the truth really is. I realize that audio is largely subjective but there must be some way right? 

 

Again, not to be rude, but I would appreciate a response to clear this up once and for all. 

HD600's need amping more than mobo onboard can offer so you would of needed to buy either a soundcard or external solution (which is one situation where onboard will be inferior and something extra will be show tangible benefits, but it's still not going to be enormous and make the headphones sound hugely better).

 

If you are happy with what you have then that's all that matters, changing DACs won't