Bitcoin energy use in Iceland set to overtake homes, says local firm - BBC News

[mark_cameron]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43030677

 

 

Quote

Bitcoin energy use in Iceland set to overtake homes, says local firm

By Chris Baraniuk

Technology reporter

 

Smari McCarthy, a member of the Icelandic parliament for the Pirate Party, tweeted: "Cryptocurrency mining requires almost no staff, very little in capital investments, and mostly leaves no taxes either.

"The value to Iceland... is virtually zero."

He also clarified previous reports that quoted him as saying he was keen to tax Bitcoin mining firms.

Iceland is facing an "exponential" rise in Bitcoin mining that is gobbling up power resources, a spokesman for Icelandic energy firm HS Orka has said.

This year, electricity use at Bitcoin mining data centres is likely to exceed that of all Iceland's homes, according to Johann Snorri Sigurbergsson.

He said many potential customers were keen to get in on the act.

"If all these projects are realised, we won't have enough energy for it," he told the BBC.

Mr Sigurbergsson's calculations were first reported by the Associated Press.

Iceland has a small population, of around 340,000 people.

But in recent years it has seen a marked increase in the number of new data centres, often built by firms wishing to tout green credentials. Nearly 100% of energy in Iceland comes from renewable sources.

Bitcoin mining refers to the work done by computers connected to the global Bitcoin network.

These computers solve complex mathematical problems - a process that in turn validates transactions between users of the crypto-currency.

The computers that do this validation work receive small Bitcoin rewards for their trouble, making it a lucrative exercise, especially when done at a large scale.

'Exponential growth'

"What we're seeing now is... you can almost call it exponential growth, I think, in the [energy] consumption of data centres," said Mr Sigurbergsson.

He added that he expects Bitcoin mining operations will use around 840 gigawatt hours of electricity to supply data centre computers and cooling systems, for example.

He estimated that the county's homes, in contrast, use around 700 gigawatt hours every year.

"I don't see it stopping quite yet," added Mr Sigurbergsson, referring to data centre projects.

"I'm getting a lot of calls, visits from potential investors or companies wanting to build data centres in Iceland."

He also said that there are so many proposed data centres that it wouldn't be possible to supply all of them.

He added that his firm was mostly interested in dealing with companies that were willing to commit to long-term contracts of a few years or more.

If Iceland took on all of the proposed Bitcoin mining ventures, there simply wouldn't be enough electricity to supply them all, he added.

...

Smari McCarthy, a member of the Icelandic parliament for the Pirate Party, tweeted: "Cryptocurrency mining requires almost no staff, very little in capital investments, and mostly leaves no taxes either.

"The value to Iceland... is virtually zero."

He also clarified previous reports that quoted him as saying he was keen to tax Bitcoin mining firms.

Nearly 100% of energy in Iceland comes from renewable sources - BBC News

 

I wonder what the global contribution to release of green house gases cyptocurrency mining has been in the past three years?

 

No doubt substantial.

 

Its going to require government taxation for environmental and social reasons.

 

The first people to suffer when energy supply in a society becomes tight (and demand forces energy prices upward) is the poorest.

 

Given that there is an upward trend in energy prices (OPEC related) along with weakening of the US dollar and interest rate rises coming, expect to see this happen more.

 

Cyptocurrency is going to start having real world negative impacts (more so than than is currently happening in the Bitcoin bubbles).

 

It seems the lessons of 2008 not learnt, and inevitably it requires regulation to protect real people.

[Hip]

I bet those power companies will make a fortune there. The thermal sources give a lot of cheap and clean electricity to iceland.

[Energycore]

Yeah, I'd agree completely that mined cryptos are simply put not sustainable. At the very least though, countries like Iceland should tax bitcoin mining. It's not hard to find a significant miner - any household or other real estate that's consuming electricity over the usual is a tell. I do believe miners at the very least should give back to the country they're mining in.

[LienusLateTips]

Just wait for them to need to use tidal energy

 

 

Or if you want to be a terrible country import oil from Canada, which is exceptionally low quality, at least for WCS

[mark_cameron]

If you look at the parallel thread : "NVIDIA Asks Retailers To Stop Selling To Miners & Sell To Gamers Instead" 

 

Its clear that GPU market, energy market and indeed wider economies and society in general is beginning to feel the impact of what is happening in cryptocurrency.

 

Gamers are struggling with RAM/SSD supply issues, GPU supply issues and energy rises to pay for running their games!

 

Its not good.

 

Its having all sorts of negative impacts.

[Energycore]

Just now, mark_cameron said:

If you look at the parallel thread : "NVIDIA Asks Retailers To Stop Selling To Miners & Sell To Gamers Instead" 

 

Its clear that GPU market, energy market and indeed wider economies and society in general is beginning to feel the impact of what is happening in cryptocurrency.

 

Gamers are struggling with RAM/SSD supply issues, GPU supply issues and energy rises to pay for running their games!

 

Its not good.

 

Its having all sorts of negative impacts.

I really feel like the impact on gamers is entirely unimportant when you compare it to the impact on you know, our chances to keep surviving in this planet

[Tiberiusisgame]

If this truly became an issue for Iceland, they would mandate maximum power draws or caps for each house. They're socialist, after all.

[mark_cameron]

4 minutes ago, Energycore said:

I really feel like the impact on gamers is entirely unimportant when you compare it to the impact on you know, our chances to keep surviving in this planet

Gamers pay their taxes to governments.

 

Sales taxes, value added taxes. Energy taxes. Environment taxes (at least we do here in UK!)

 

What are these cryptominers contributing?

[asus killer]

4 minutes ago, mark_cameron said:

Gamers pay their taxes to governments.

 

Sales taxes, value added taxes. Energy taxes. Environment taxes (at least we do here in UK!)

 

What are these cryptominers contributing?

exactly the same 

[Energycore]

Just now, mark_cameron said:

Gamers pay their taxes to governments.

 

Sales taxes, value added taxes. Energy taxes. Environement taxes (at least we do here in UK!)

 

What are these cryptominers contributing?

I don't think we're arguing the same point here. I'm not saying that gamers should be scolded / burnt with bad availability. What I am saying is that, in the grand scheme of things, having to pay more in order to play the latest games at max settings matters a lot less of an issue than moderating our release of greenhouse gas and perhaps also ensure that the economic system is just in democratic countries by adding income / power consumption tax on mining firms.

 

I feel like the difference between these two problems is an order of magnitude. The ability to upgrade your entertainment for cheap, or the stability of government economies and the effect of humans in climate change. Of course it's gonna be nice to have available GPUs, but we should look at the bigger problems first.

[mark_cameron]

Just now, asus killer said:

exactly the same 

Not if they're purchasing the cards in a tax haven they don't !

These cards aren't being purchased in Iceland, they're being imported and unless they're for sale in Iceland that government gets ZERO.

[mark_cameron]

1 minute ago, Energycore said:

I don't think we're arguing the same point here. I'm not saying that gamers should be scolded / burnt with bad availability. What I am saying is that, in the grand scheme of things, having to pay more in order to play the latest games at max settings matters a lot less of an issue than moderating our release of greenhouse gas and perhaps also ensure that the economic system is just in democratic countries by adding income / power consumption tax on mining firms.

 

I feel like the difference between these two problems is an order of magnitude. The ability to upgrade your entertainment for cheap, or the stability of government economies and the effect of humans in climate change. Of course it's gonna be nice to have available GPUs, but we should look at the bigger problems first.

 

Was just looking at the prices of 1080s online now.

 

Urgh its depressing.

 

I get what you mean. However. Relativity is important yes.

[Energycore]

Just now, asus killer said:

exactly the same 

Technically miners should pay income tax but we both now that a lot of miners don't, perhaps the big companies do. And big companies can choose to locate themselves in places where the cost of power and tax is low like Wyoming.

 

All in all I think it's messy. Minable cryptos are a nice first effort but we should look for ways to secure a blockchain without spending so much power, and still stay decentralized.

 

Or we can move all miners to the moon where solar energy is so much more efficient because no sun ray is blocked by any pesky atmosphere.

[asus killer]

4 minutes ago, Energycore said:

Technically miners should pay income tax but we both now that a lot of miners don't, perhaps the big companies do. And big companies can choose to locate themselves in places where the cost of power and tax is low like Wyoming.

 

All in all I think it's messy. Minable cryptos are a nice first effort but we should look for ways to secure a blockchain without spending so much power, and still stay decentralized.

 

Or we can move all miners to the moon where solar energy is so much more efficient because no sun ray is blocked by any pesky atmosphere.

http://time.com/money/5007068/theres-a-huge-hidden-bitcoin-tax-that-you-need-to-know-about/

 

 

[mark_cameron]

Just now, asus killer said:

http://time.com/money/5007068/theres-a-huge-hidden-bitcoin-tax-that-you-need-to-know-about/

 

 

I'm not American.

[Energycore]

Just now, asus killer said:

http://time.com/money/5007068/theres-a-huge-hidden-bitcoin-tax-that-you-need-to-know-about/

 

 

Can you comment on the link? I say this because at face value, since these taxes work differently worldwide it's hard to draw conclusions.

 

If it's to do with Wyoming, I cited it as an example and we know that there are other mining havens in the world, Iceland for instance, where taxes may not work like this.

 

And the artlicle's comment is true - technically the IRS can search the whole blockchain for transactions with your bitcoin wallet. Enforcement of this isn't mainstream but it is a start.

[Donut417]

This is a concern in the US. Our power grid is shit. Hell a tree and stupidity took out the North East US in 2003. That was a week of misery. Ill be concerned this summer with rolling blackouts from Miners and people using air conditioners. 

17 minutes ago, Energycore said:

Technically miners should pay income tax but we both now that a lot of miners don't, perhaps the big companies do. And big companies can choose to locate themselves in places where the cost of power and tax is low like Wyoming.

The IRS is going after those tax evaders starting this year. People in the US who mine need to make sure they know the tax code and know it well. But this is the reason a lot of nations are banning exchanges and trying to kill the market. Because people try to evade the taxes they have to pay. But here in the US the IRS has almost all the power in the world to fuck you life up. I know they can take your pay check and property to an extent. Also, you can be imprisoned. Remember Al Capone got 11 years for tax evasion. 

[Energycore]

Just now, Donut417 said:

This is a concern in the US. Our power grid is shit. Hell a tree and stupidity took out the North East US in 2003. That was a week of misery. Ill be concerned this summer with rolling blackouts from Miners and people using air conditioners. 

The IRS is going after those tax evaders starting this year. People in the US who mine need to make sure they know the tax code and know it well. But this is the reason a lot of nations are banning exchanges and trying to kill the market. Because people try to evade the taxes they have to pay. But here in the US the IRS has almost all the power in the world to fuck you life up. I know they can take your pay check and property to an extent. Also, you can be imprisoned. Remember Al Capone got 11 years for tax evasion. 

Definitely a point where the libertarians who call for the decentralized market as a means to improve our quality of life in some ways clash with the people who just see it as another opportunity to evade taxes lol

 

But while the bitcoin network and many others are decentralized, they're not anonymous, so countries have the option of searching the whole blockchain for someone's wallet. Hopefully they follow suit. There are currencies that aren't like this though. Monero comes to mind.

[AshleyAshes]

12 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Hell a tree and stupidity took out the North East US in 2003.

Those trees were minding their business, bothering no one, when wires under heavy load drooped down and shocked them.  The trees were VICTIMS of the hostile intentions of powerlines. >_>

[Donut417]

6 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Those trees were minding their business, bothering no one, when wires under heavy load drooped down and shocked them.  The trees were VICTIMS of the hostile intentions of powerlines. >_>

Which is why our local power company has been cutting those bastards down. So they cant get in to the power lines. 

[Hip]

I bet this is again just fearmongering to blame BTC. Iceland can produce clean and cheap energy from its thermal sources without a problem.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

Well unless we tech enthusiasts, aviation enthusiasts, car enthusiasts, etc. decide to take up journaling for mainstream media, those are the types of errors you should expect. So we should all stop being smug about pointing out every one of these minor details journalists get wrong.  
 

Anyways... regarding the news topic... lol miners. First they drive up GPU prices, now they be driving up energy costs. More infectious than foreign investment in Vancouver. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Whiskers
Edited to fix thread merge issues

[Trevor87]

I wonder if they make power outage coin mine it and make your country's power grid unstable joke    

[mr moose]

26 minutes ago, GrandFatMan said:

 (source says Bitcoin, that's the media for you) 
 

 

19 minutes ago, Hip said:

I bet this is again just fearmongering to blame BTC.

 

18 minutes ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

 those are the types of errors you should expect. So we should all stop being smug about pointing out every one of these minor details journalists get wrong.  

 

Anyways... regarding the news topic... lol miners. First they drive up GPU prices, now they be driving up energy costs. More infectious than foreign investment in Vancouver. 

 

The article clearly says it is both current and proposed data centres that are mining bitcoin, Unless you have proof Johann Snorri Sigurbergsson is lying, then your emotional reaction to bad bitcoin news is easily as bad as your assumption that the media are wrong or just want to blame bitcoin. 

[asus killer]

cheap electricity, so it's to be expected. Increase prices and problem goes away.

 

then again saying there is nothing in it to Iceland is wrong. Electricity pays taxes and because almost all their electricity comes from renewable, they get more taxes at no cost.