PS5 Specs

[Mira Yurizaki]

Regarding putting an SSD on a console, it's been repeatedly shown that putting faster storage on a console is hit and miss. It's likely due to developers designing the file structure around having a slower medium and they're compressing chunks of data whenever they can, reducing the need for more bandwidth. Though this puts a hit on the CPU, with some clever design you can continue "loading" the game while its interactive.

 

Also considering that console users are steadily embracing digital downloads and that you still have to install the games anyway, you need a large capacity in the system. A 1TB SSD is too expensive for a console whose price point is $400 or so.

 

Besides, if you wanted rawdog performance, you wouldn't be getting a console anyway.

[Totallycasual]

It would be really cool if the next generation of consoles had more flexibility in terms of having a base model then if you want to pay a little more you get a hybrid drive or a stronger GPU, like going from the PS4 to the Pro or the x-box one to the one X but the consoles would otherwise be identical. That way if people want to spend a little more for higher FPS or enhanced graphics they can do so, game developers are already faced with optimization/settings for two different Playstations and X-Boxes as it is. 

[skywake]

What's the point of a "PS5" speculation thread if everyone is stuck on limitations of current systems and current pricing. Is this the PS5 thread or the PS4 Super Pro thread?

[SteveGrabowski0]

7 hours ago, skywake said:

What's the point of a "PS5" speculation thread if everyone is stuck on limitations of current systems and current pricing. Is this the PS5 thread or the PS4 Super Pro thread?

Make a PS6 thread if you want to talk about expensive technologies that might be cheap six years from now.

[skywake]

4 hours ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Make a PS6 thread if you want to talk about expensive technologies that might be cheap six years from now.

I'm not the one talking about expensive technologies six years from now. I made three fairly basic points:

1. With 16GB cartridges being the standard on Switch (vs 2-4GB being standard on Vita/3DS) we're not far away from cartridges >50GB

2. With diminishing returns in horsepower and 4K being a bit of a ceiling we'll likely see a trend towards smaller, cheaper, more power efficient consoles
3. With flash getting cheaper faster than HDDs we're not far away from consoles with SSDs. Either entirely (eventually) or as a boot/fast storage drive

If you want to disagree then fine. But disagree without talking about how current consoles handle these things or what we expect from current consoles. You said that the boot times of the PS4/XBOne are fine. What's so great about fine? The Switch, as underpowered as it is, starts up instantly. Yes it only has 32GB of internal storage but it's super fast to load things and super quiet because aside from a fan it has no mechanical storage. Now I may be a bit of a Nintendo fanboy but IMO I think the PS5 should beat the Switch in every technical aspect, not just horsepower.

[SteveGrabowski0]

2 hours ago, skywake said:

I'm not the one talking about expensive technologies six years from now. I made three fairly basic points:

1. With 16GB cartridges being the standard on Switch (vs 2-4GB being standard on Vita/3DS) we're not far away from cartridges >50GB

2. With diminishing returns in horsepower and 4K being a bit of a ceiling we'll likely see a trend towards smaller, cheaper, more power efficient consoles
3. With flash getting cheaper faster than HDDs we're not far away from consoles with SSDs. Either entirely (eventually) or as a boot/fast storage drive

If you want to disagree then fine. But disagree without talking about how current consoles handle these things or what we expect from current consoles. You said that the boot times of the PS4/XBOne are fine. What's so great about fine? The Switch, as underpowered as it is, starts up instantly. Yes it only has 32GB of internal storage but it's super fast to load things and super quiet because aside from a fan it has no mechanical storage. Now I may be a bit of a Nintendo fanboy but IMO I think the PS5 should beat the Switch in every technical aspect, not just horsepower.

SSDs are not getting cheaper. Wow your Switch boots up in 18 seconds vs my PS4 Slim booting in 30 seconds. Neither one is instant and both times are short enough to not matter. It makes no sense to waste money on something so useless. Price matters hugely in the console space and when you say you want an SSD in the system then you're really saying you want a weaker gpu and cpu.

[Stefan Payne]

And remember, there is also Compression....

You can sometimes comress a 50GiB game to 20GiB. So that is also possible.

And with consoles you can use that for security as well. And implement a dedicated security processor that does the (un)compressing in those things.

 

So a 32GiG Cartridge is totally possible and not that expensive.

And they are available for 10 bucks or so from named brands (with 19% VAT):
https://geizhals.de/?cat=sm_sdhc&xf=307_32&asuch=&asd=on&bpmin=&bpmax=&v=e&hloc=at&hloc=de&filter=aktualisieren&plz=&dist=&mail=&sort=p&bl1_id=30

 

So with Cartdirges you can save the space of the optical drive, the added cost isn't that huge. 

And also its possible that Sony manufactures the Carts for everyone (for security reasons)...

 

With that its possible to make those without increasing cost for the game companys.

[SteveGrabowski0]

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

And remember, there is also Compression....

You can sometimes comress a 50GiB game to 20GiB. So that is also possible.

And with consoles you can use that for security as well. And implement a dedicated security processor that does the (un)compressing in those things.

 

So a 32GiG Cartridge is totally possible and not that expensive.

And they are available for 10 bucks or so from named brands (with 19% VAT):
https://geizhals.de/?cat=sm_sdhc&xf=307_32&asuch=&asd=on&bpmin=&bpmax=&v=e&hloc=at&hloc=de&filter=aktualisieren&plz=&dist=&mail=&sort=p&bl1_id=30

 

So with Cartdirges you can save the space of the optical drive, the added cost isn't that huge. 

And also its possible that Sony manufactures the Carts for everyone (for security reasons)...

 

With that its possible to make those without increasing cost for the game companys.

That would make install times horrendous though, and to do decompression of a file of that size you would never want to use anything but the main cpu of the system.

[Stefan Payne]

7 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

That would make install times horrendous though, and to do decompression of a file of that size you would never want to use anything but the main cpu of the system.

Yes and since it is all proprietary anyway, you can implement a Hardware Compression engine. And you don't need to have that inside the main CPU, you can also put it in the Southbridge between the drive and the CPU...

 

There are some Harddrives on the Market that do something like that. Just not for compression but encryption...

[TacoSenpai]

3 hours ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

SSDs are not getting cheaper. Wow your Switch boots up in 18 seconds vs my PS4 Slim booting in 30 seconds. Neither one is instant and both times are short enough to not matter. It makes no sense to waste money on something so useless. Price matters hugely in the console space and when you say you want an SSD in the system then you're really saying you want a weaker gpu and cpu.

Best way I can put it its as seamless as locking and unlocking your smartphone simpler even and has a great importance.

 

Think of it like this.  If you are on the go and in situations where you want to boot up your device and instantly lock it or unlock it to play your game.  The Switch's lock and unlock feature especially with how snappy it is to get back to exactly where you were in game seamlessly is important in this way.  Example:  you are on a 30 min to 1 hour bus ride you pull out your switch and unlock it with the power button and boot into where you left off from your game.  Your bus stop comes up in 2min and you lock your console by just hitting the power button without having to worry about saving booting down or saves/os getting corrupted (an issue with the ps4's numerous power options) and you get home and dock and you boot up from where you last left off.

 

Its kinda hard to explain but until you've actually done it you realize how convenient and important it is particularly since the biggest selling point of the console is its portability and how seamless it is.

 

Although I do think it has less to do with whether or not the console has an SSD and more to do with proprietary hardware being extremely well optimized for the flash storage its given. 

[Mira Yurizaki]

The Switch's ability to sleep and wake up is no different than my laptop being in sleep mode. I can open the lid (or rather, press the power button because I make the laptop ignore screen closing because I'm weird like that) and be up and running within seconds.

 

Boot times on home consoles are largely irrelevant now that they have a suspend mode too. I can put the PS4 into rest mode and pick up exactly where I left off. And most of the time the TV takes longer to turn on than the PS4 takes to become interactive. Though this may be because I use the PS4 to turn on the TV automatically, but either way, I'm up and running in less than 10 seconds.

 

EDIT: Also note that while compression is a thing and can be used to reduce bandwidth constraints, it also means you take a hit on your processing power. This is likely why PS4 loading performance is hit and miss when you add an SSD: if the game makes use of heavy compression and requires significant amounts of decompression, the wimpy CPU is going to take a while to get it unpacked.

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, M.Yurizaki said:

EDIT: Also note that while compression is a thing and can be used to reduce bandwidth constraints, it also means you take a hit on your processing power. This is likely why PS4 loading performance is hit and miss when you add an SSD: if the game makes use of heavy compression and requires significant amounts of decompression, the wimpy CPU is going to take a while to get it unpacked.

Yes, except if you think about that when designing the hardware and implement a dedicated processor that does the compression

You could also integrate that into the cartridge but that would be expensive and unnecessary. You can also implement that in Hardware in the I/O Controller. You don't necessarily need the CPU for that.

 

A console is proprietary anyway. ANd you want some strange shit anyway to discourage Piracy. And you can maybe even combine that with a bit of encryption...

 

You only need the CPU for decompressing when you don't have hardware

 

And the reason the PS4 doesn't profit that much from an SSD might be because the HDD is connected via USB (according to a hacker group that ran Linux on the PS4)...

PS: I also deactivate the Lid-switch on all my Laptops too...

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

2 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, except if you think about that when designing the hardware and implement a dedicated processor that does the compression

You could also integrate that into the cartridge but that would be expensive and unnecessary. You can also implement that in Hardware in the I/O Controller. You don't necessarily need the CPU for that.

Yes but this is an extra cost (a few cents adds up when you're expected to sell millions) and it's easier to tell the developer to just work with the issue. And not every game is going to need compression anyway.

[ExplosiveSloths]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:47 PM, Himommies said:

How would they do that?The only reason you pick up a PS4 nowadays is because you want a powerful console and those 4k graphics,if the made a switch,unless it was in some way significantly better,I don't see why you would ever buy that over a switch

They have some pretty good exclusives, not to mention they also get stuff early sometimes.

I also have a better luck with PSN servers than the ones on PC.

 

 

 

I eman, I get the switch and all that but no. Nintendon't.

 

 

[dalekphalm]

On 2/7/2018 at 5:19 PM, Energycore said:

Can we please get default SSD storage on the PS5? It's 2018 goddammit hard drives are a thing of the past (or for datacenters)

That would drive the cost up - it would be nice, but hey, I'd rather have a 1TB (or even 2TB, 3TB) HDD in there, and not be limited with the number of games I can install.

 

Here's my guess:

 

SoC: Ryzen based 4c8t w/ Vega based 56+ CU's

RAM: 12GB or 16GB of either GDDR5x/6, or HBM 2

4K Blu-Ray w/ HDR Support

Storage: 1TB HDD base model, with larger storage options available

Backwards Compatibility: PS4 games, but Sony won't guarantee performance, and it'll be up to the Devs to optimize games via patch, if they so desire.

 

Whether it's Ryzen + Vega, or Ryzen 2 + Navi, etc, is up in the air. However, if they are releasing it in, say, 2019, that means specs are probably going to be finalized at least a year before launch. That means that it will release with hardware that's at least a year old (stuff available a year before release during the design phase).

 

But who knows what we'll see.

[Noctua_Boy]

5 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

That would drive the cost up - it would be nice, but hey, I'd rather have a 1TB (or even 2TB, 3TB) HDD in there, and not be limited with the number of games I can install.

 

Here's my guess:

 

SoC: Ryzen based 4c8t w/ Vega based 56+ CU's

RAM: 12GB or 16GB of either GDDR5x/6, or HBM 2

4K Blu-Ray w/ HDR Support

Storage: 1TB HDD base model, with larger storage options available

Backwards Compatibility: PS4 games, but Sony won't guarantee performance, and it'll be up to the Devs to optimize games via patch, if they so desire.

 

Whether it's Ryzen + Vega, or Ryzen 2 + Navi, etc, is up in the air. However, if they are releasing it in, say, 2019, that means specs are probably going to be finalized at least a year before launch. That means that it will release with hardware that's at least a year old (stuff available a year before release during the design phase).

 

But who knows what we'll see.

 

13 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, except if you think about that when designing the hardware and implement a dedicated processor that does the compression

You could also integrate that into the cartridge but that would be expensive and unnecessary. You can also implement that in Hardware in the I/O Controller. You don't necessarily need the CPU for that.

 

A console is proprietary anyway. ANd you want some strange shit anyway to discourage Piracy. And you can maybe even combine that with a bit of encryption...

 

You only need the CPU for decompressing when you don't have hardware

 

And the reason the PS4 doesn't profit that much from an SSD might be because the HDD is connected via USB (according to a hacker group that ran Linux on the PS4)...

PS: I also deactivate the Lid-switch on all my Laptops too...

 

That is quite interesting. I say if they are going to invest R&D money , this would defiantly be money well spent.

Games are huge , Discs are slow and Nand still quite expensive compared to Magnetic. Back in the the day the "magic" of owning a console was the ability to pop a disc or cart and,,,bam... you are gaming.

 

 

[Noctua_Boy]

5 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

That would drive the cost up - it would be nice, but hey, I'd rather have a 1TB (or even 2TB, 3TB) HDD in there, and not be limited with the number of games I can install.

 

Here's my guess:

 

SoC: Ryzen based 4c8t w/ Vega based 56+ CU's

RAM: 12GB or 16GB of either GDDR5x/6, or HBM 2

4K Blu-Ray w/ HDR Support

Storage: 1TB HDD base model, with larger storage options available

Backwards Compatibility: PS4 games, but Sony won't guarantee performance, and it'll be up to the Devs to optimize games via patch, if they so desire.

 

Whether it's Ryzen + Vega, or Ryzen 2 + Navi, etc, is up in the air. However, if they are releasing it in, say, 2019, that means specs are probably going to be finalized at least a year before launch. That means that it will release with hardware that's at least a year old (stuff available a year before release during the design phase).

 

But who knows what we'll see.

My wish list: (March 2020 release)

Ryzen 2 4 Cores- 8Threads

Next gen AMD architecture (not GNC)

16GB HBM3 Memory

64GB Flash Cart Games

NVME BUS with a Sata adapter

1TB HARD DRIVE 

PS4 Retro compatibly (no patches , no emulators)

 

Built on 7nm with HBM Memory , no disc drive , it would make up for a very compact console.

I would rather wait a bit longer and get a console that is significantly faster than the current ones built on true next gen tech. The next Amd architecture is a good example of this. Games on carts would be amazing too , although i dont think it will happen.

 

[SteveGrabowski0]

8 hours ago, Noctua_Boy said:

 

That is quite interesting. I say if they are going to invest R&D money , this would defiantly be money well spent.

Games are huge , Discs are slow and Nand still quite expensive compared to Magnetic. Back in the the day the "magic" of owning a console was the ability to pop a disc or cart and,,,bam... you are gaming.

 

 

This ain't back in the day though. Now you have day 1 patches and it's considered acceptable for games to run like crap early on, both console and PC.

[SteveGrabowski0]

13 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

That would drive the cost up - it would be nice, but hey, I'd rather have a 1TB (or even 2TB, 3TB) HDD in there, and not be limited with the number of games I can install.

 

Here's my guess:

 

SoC: Ryzen based 4c8t w/ Vega based 56+ CU's

RAM: 12GB or 16GB of either GDDR5x/6, or HBM 2

4K Blu-Ray w/ HDR Support

Storage: 1TB HDD base model, with larger storage options available

Backwards Compatibility: PS4 games, but Sony won't guarantee performance, and it'll be up to the Devs to optimize games via patch, if they so desire.

 

Whether it's Ryzen + Vega, or Ryzen 2 + Navi, etc, is up in the air. However, if they are releasing it in, say, 2019, that means specs are probably going to be finalized at least a year before launch. That means that it will release with hardware that's at least a year old (stuff available a year before release during the design phase).

 

But who knows what we'll see.

2019 seems too early for sure. That's the best case for hitting 7nm and there is no way they could deliver a console with power that's a huge jump over base PS4/XB1 for $400 on 14/16 nm. 2020 seems more realistic. I would love a quadcore Ryzen with eight threads though, as that would put 1080p60 on the table for the vast majority of games. I'll take 1080p60 over 4k30 any day.

[Mira Yurizaki]

8 hours ago, Noctua_Boy said:

My wish list: (March 2020 release)

Ryzen 2 4 Cores- 8Threads

Next gen AMD architecture (not GNC)

16GB HBM3 Memory

64GB Flash Cart Games

NVME BUS with a Sata adapter

1TB HARD DRIVE 

PS4 Retro compatibly (no patches , no emulators)

 

Built on 7nm with HBM Memory , no disc drive , it would make up for a very compact console.

I would rather wait a bit longer and get a console that is significantly faster than the current ones built on true next gen tech. The next Amd architecture is a good example of this. Games on carts would be amazing too , although i dont think it will happen.

 

They wouldn't kill the optical disk drive. As long as optical disk media exists, the goal of Sony with the PlayStation is to be the premium-yet-affordable, all-in-one entertainment system, so they'll continue to put it in. And it's likely they wouldn't put on NVME either. Its performance has no appreciable benefit to having it for a gaming system of any sort.

 

Blu-Ray is capable of up to 72 MB/sec transfers and PS4 games are designed to be partially installed before letting the player run them.

Edited February 15, 2018 by M.Yurizaki
Cut off a statement too soon, herpderp

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

They wouldn't kill the optical disk drive. As long as optical disk media exists, the goal of Sony with the PlayStation is to be the premium-yet-affordable, all-in-on entertainment system.  And it's likely they wouldn't put on NVME either. Its performance has no appreciable benefit to having it for a gaming system of any sort.

 

Blu-Ray is capable of up to 72 MB/sec transfers and PS4 games are designed to be partially installed before letting the player run them.

Most users on LTT don't use optical media anymore, but they underestimate the number of "casual" users who have large DVD and Blu-Ray collections.

 

And for us Home Theatre snobs, a Blu-Ray absolutely wrecks any sort of legal online streaming or digital download for movies. Let Alone 4K Blu-Ray (which only the XBOX One S and X can play).

[SteveGrabowski0]

8 hours ago, Noctua_Boy said:

My wish list: (March 2020 release)

Ryzen 2 4 Cores- 8Threads

Next gen AMD architecture (not GNC)

16GB HBM3 Memory

64GB Flash Cart Games

NVME BUS with a Sata adapter

1TB HARD DRIVE 

PS4 Retro compatibly (no patches , no emulators)

 

Built on 7nm with HBM Memory , no disc drive , it would make up for a very compact console.

I would rather wait a bit longer and get a console that is significantly faster than the current ones built on true next gen tech. The next Amd architecture is a good example of this. Games on carts would be amazing too , although i dont think it will happen.

 

I don't think the carts will happen, as you'd probably need to go to 128GB. 4k games already run north of 100GB on XBox One X, and I don't want to pay extra for large cartridges like I had to in the N64 days. Maybe a lot of you guys are too young to remember, but N64 games were super expensive. Check this 1997 Black Friday ad from Best Buy:

 

 

I mean $59 for Starfox 64 / Goldeneye / Mario Kart 64 is nuts, much less $59 being the big sale price. I could swear these games were normally $69 also. Those are $90 games in today's US dollar at the sale price shown in this ad and $106 in today's USD for the regular price I remember.

[Mira Yurizaki]

22 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

And for us Home Theatre snobs, a Blu-Ray absolutely wrecks any sort of legal online streaming or digital download for movies. Let Alone 4K Blu-Ray (which only the XBOX One S and X can play).

This is glaringly obvious with anime. It's literally like someone gave you a JPEG (give or take at 70%) and a PNG version of the same image.

14 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

I don't think the carts will happen, as you'd probably need to go to 128GB. 4k games already run north of 100GB on XBox One X, and I don't want to pay extra for large cartridges like I had to in the N64 days. Maybe a lot of you guys are too young to remember, but N64 games were super expensive. Check this 1997 Black Friday ad from Best Buy:

 

I mean $59 for Starfox 64 / Goldeneye / Mario Kart 64 is nuts, much less $59 being the big sale price. I could swear these games were normally $69 also. Those are $90 games in today's US dollar at the sale price shown in this ad and $106 in today's USD for the regular price I remember.

Cartridges of those times aren't the same as "cartridges" of today. I wouldn't be surprised if cartridges of today are literally read-only SD cards. And sure, while a 128GB microSD card costs around $35 (keep in mind this is consumer pricing, OEMs can likely get a cheaper bulk discount), 100GB Blu-Ray discs costs anywhere from $10-$18 per disc and are much slower. You can probably still play modern games off a high speed SD card depending on its requirements.

[dalekphalm]

39 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

I don't think the carts will happen, as you'd probably need to go to 128GB. 4k games already run north of 100GB on XBox One X, and I don't want to pay extra for large cartridges like I had to in the N64 days. Maybe a lot of you guys are too young to remember, but N64 games were super expensive. Check this 1997 Black Friday ad from Best Buy:

 

 

I mean $59 for Starfox 64 / Goldeneye / Mario Kart 64 is nuts, much less $59 being the big sale price. I could swear these games were normally $69 also. Those are $90 games in today's US dollar at the sale price shown in this ad and $106 in today's USD for the regular price I remember.

Yep, people bitch about game prices, but frankly, with inflation, games should cost upwards of $100+ today - thank fucking god they don't.

38 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

This is glaringly obvious with anime. It's literally like someone gave you a JPEG (give or take at 70%) and a PNG version of the same image.

Cartridges of those times aren't the same as "cartridges" of today. I wouldn't be surprised if cartridges of today are literally read-only SD cards. And sure, while a 128GB microSD card costs around $35 (keep in mind this is consumer pricing, OEMs can likely get a cheaper bulk discount), 100GB Blu-Ray discs costs anywhere from $10-$18 per disc and are much slower. You can probably still play modern games off a high speed SD card depending on its requirements.

The bulk cost of a blu-ray disk is actually almost nothing. According to this article, it's about $2 per disk:

https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/03/6400-2/

 

You have to remember that Blu-Ray discs you buy in store are burnable or re-writable (depending on type), which further increase costs. Plus, there's licensing fees, and lastly, they charge that much because they can.

 

Now, I'm sure that bulk costs of SD Cards are also quite low, but there's more physical components involved. Plus NAND seems to be getting more expensive due to shortages.

 

Personally, I'm totally fine with Blu-Ray discs continuing to be the medium of choice. A 128GB SD Card of good speed and quality is going to be more expensive to manufacture over a UHD Blu-Ray disc, therefore either driving up cost of the game, or cutting into revenue for the developers and publishers. Neither of which is ideal.

 

I wouldn't mind support for storing downloadable games onto SD Cards though, in case your HDD was filling up.

[SteveGrabowski0]

51 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

This is glaringly obvious with anime. It's literally like someone gave you a JPEG (give or take at 70%) and a PNG version of the same image.

Cartridges of those times aren't the same as "cartridges" of today. I wouldn't be surprised if cartridges of today are literally read-only SD cards. And sure, while a 128GB microSD card costs around $35 (keep in mind this is consumer pricing, OEMs can likely get a cheaper bulk discount), 100GB Blu-Ray discs costs anywhere from $10-$18 per disc and are much slower. You can probably still play modern games off a high speed SD card depending on its requirements.

Wow $10 to $18 per disc? God damn I never had any idea they were so expensive. Looks like next gen they'll probably stick with what MS does now and give you the 1080p game on disc and make you download all the 4k assets.