[Updated with Benchmark*] AC:O gets cracked 3 days after it's update containing Denuvo 4.9

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, asus killer said:

What is DRM?

Digital Restrictions Management is the practice of imposing technological restrictions that control what users can do with digital media. When a program is designed to prevent you from copying or sharing a song, reading an ebook on another device, or playing a single-player game without an Internet connection, you are being restricted by DRM. In other words, DRM creates a damaged good; it prevents you from doing what would be possible without it. 

 

Quote

Digital rights management (DRM) is a set of access control technologies for restricting the use of proprietary hardware and copyrighted works.^[1] DRM technologies try to control the use, modification, and distribution of copyrighted works (such as software and multimedia content), as well as systems within devices that enforce these policies.^[2]

GOG control the distribution of games without copy protection, it's DRM. DRM is a very broad term and GOG doesn't get to say what it actually means or is.

 

You and GOG is mixing up DRM with copy protection.

[vorticalbox]

On 03/02/2018 at 4:55 PM, Ryujin2003 said:

 

I am against pirating content, and am for companies trying to protect their IP. (confrontational statement coming) Piracy can and does hurt industries

>hurts industry 

>made over 3 billion is Dec 17

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/201093/revenue-of-the-us-video-game-industry/

[asus killer]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

GOG control the distribution of games without copy protection, it's DRM. DRM is a very broad term and GOG doesn't get to say what it actually means or is.

 

You and GOG is mixing up DRM with copy protection.

we are allowed to agree to disagree.... but .... GOG would only control the distribution of the first copy. With one copy in theory no one else would need another, you could just share with the world with no work needed to make it work on every PC on earth.

But that's no control of distribution, in anything the author always have to release the 1st copy: the 1st book, the 1st car by Ford, the 1st meat in a bun (someone invented a burger)... that's how the work is presented to the world.

 

Like i said agree to disagree. 

[jaggysnake57]

8 hours ago, RagnarokDel said:

That's the new version they just installed 3 days ago, denuvo 4.8 had been cracked less then a week after AC:O released.

yeah i forgot the vmprotect thing

 

[leadeater]

25 minutes ago, asus killer said:

we are allowed to agree to disagree.... but .... GOG would only control the distribution of the first copy. With one copy in theory no one else would need another, you could just share with the world with no work needed to make it work on every PC on earth.

But that's no control of distribution, in anything the author always have to release the 1st copy: the 1st book, the 1st car by Ford, the 1st meat in a bun (someone invented a burger)... that's how the work is presented to the world.

 

Like i said agree to disagree. 

Thing is everything I said about Steam DRM is exactly what Steam says it is and what you quoted, which is what I said is all that is required in terms of DRM. It will stop basic free copying of the games that is the lowest bar and really the only thing you need to stop, it's effective at it. Something that is easily defeated doesn't mean it's ineffective.

 

Steam also don't say their DRM doesn't work they say it's easily removed and suggest if you want to to supplement with 3rd party DRM.

 

Just because GOG doesn't control the redistribution of content doesn't stop it from being a distribution platform that requires an account to use and tracks what you purchase and restricts what you are allowed to download off the site. I'm not unfamiliar with GOG as I own plenty of games that I purchase through them but it is what it is.

 

Too much rose tinted glasses towards GOG and much ignoring of human behavior, there's no way the GOG model would work long term (10+ years) for games like COD, AC, Battlefield etc as people would, like in the past, just share the game between friends.

 

What I'm not clear on is why you would be opposed to Steam DRM, you think it doesn't work so it should be removed? Why? I can think of only one good reason and that is not having internet at all, so even Steam offline mode wouldn't be an option.

 

I don't think it works so it should be removed isn't exactly a well nuanced and thought out reasoning.

[Xander Cousins]

Sounds like someone did a CRACKIN job.... Ok I'll stop with the puns.... And tbh anything you make is and can be hackable. 

 

Someone who is a great hacker may not be able to hack it but someone that looks at things differently to that dude could. It's all based on point of view. So ya if someone claims something is unhackable or unbreakable then it's just the people who tried either where looking at it the wrong way or just couldn't....

[asus killer]

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Thing is everything I said about Steam DRM is exactly what Steam says it is and what you quoted, which is what I said is all that is required in terms of DRM. It will stop basic free copying of the games that is the lowest bar and really the only thing you need to stop, it's effective at it. Something that is easily defeated doesn't mean it's ineffective.

 

Steam also don't say their DRM doesn't work they say it's easily removed and suggest if you want to to supplement with 3rd party DRM.

 

Just because GOG doesn't control the redistribution of content doesn't stop it from being a distribution platform that requires an account to use and tracks what you purchase and restricts what you are allowed to download off the site. I'm not unfamiliar with GOG as I own plenty of games that I purchase through them but it is what it is.

 

Too much rose tinted glasses towards GOG and much ignoring of human behavior, there's no way the GOG model would work long term (10+ years) for games like COD, AC, Battlefield etc as people would, like in the past, just share the game between friends.

 

What I'm not clear on is why you would be opposed to Steam DRM, you think it doesn't work so it should be removed? Why? I can think of only one good reason and that is not having internet at all, so even Steam offline mode wouldn't be an option.

 

I don't think it works so it should be removed isn't exactly a well nuanced and thought out reasoning.

man consider this:

 

you want to xerox a picasso. First picasso has to sell the painting to you or you will never get your hands on it to xerox in the 1st place. After that you can xerox till your machine dies. Does a picasso have DRM? does picasso control the redistribution?

you want to xerox a book for school. First the author has to sell a copy to someone or you will never be able to xerox it. After that you can xerox till your fingers bleed. Does that book have DRM?...

 

You are using the fact that is a digital download to justify it has DRM. If it were a physical disc, the same principal applied, you always had to get your hands on a copy buy buying it to than make copies. Still there were no "control of redistribution". Still no DRM. (some games back in the day had DRM like codes on the manual, let's imagine a simple example) 

[leadeater]

32 minutes ago, asus killer said:

man consider this:

 

you want to xerox a picasso. First picasso has to sell the painting to you or you will never get your hands on it to xerox in the 1st place. After that you can xerox till your machine dies. Does a picasso have DRM? does picasso control the redistribution?

you want to xerox a book for school. First the author has to sell a copy to someone or you will never be able to xerox it. After that you can xerox till your fingers bleed. Does that book have DRM?...

 

You are using the fact that is a digital download to justify it has DRM. If it were a physical disc, the same principal applied, you always had to get your hands on a copy buy buying it to than make copies. Still there were no "control of redistribution". Still no DRM. (some games back in the day had DRM like codes on the manual, let's imagine a simple example) 

DRM = Digital Rights Management <---- What's not clear about this? DRM does not apply to physical things like books and art unless it's a digital form of it. Books, paintings etc just aren't applicable in a DRM discussion because they are not digital.

 

GOG is DRM, the games distributed by GOG do not have inbuilt DRM or copy protection. I'm saying that platform itself is DRM not the games. It doesn't invalidate GOG moral stance on no DRM and copy protection in games but their service is multiple aspects of what DRM is defined as.

 

Physical game disc has copy protection, the code in the manual is DRM. The code in the manual plays no part in stopping the copying of the game, you could do that as much as you like and the game publisher wouldn't care until you distributed both the copy of the game and the code to unlock it. This became an actual problem so in addition to that they required the disc be present in the CD/DVD drive, smart cloning tools also broke that (yay daemon tools), now making the disc part of DRM. I personally did not like this as it was very inconvenient so used daemon tools to create mini disc images which I could mount to play the games. After this they moved on to online verification of the serial key in the manual to prevent multiple uses of the code, fantastic when they took down the servers and you couldn't verify the code anymore.

 

This is why Steam was such a success, it removed that actual annoyance to consumers and kept publishers happy for a while.

 

I've been PC gaming since DOS, I've lived through the evolution of DRM and copy protection and right now I am happy with Steam, it's better than what we had and is actually stronger at protecting publishers and developers than the previous iteration of copy protection and DRM. Steam has for the most part been a win for everyone and evidence of that is how successful it has been.

 

Edit:

GOG is a step backwards in this respect and gives very little extra freedom to consumers and a much greater risk to publishers. Overall this is not an improvement compared to Steam, unless you ignore the needs of publishers and developers.

[asus killer]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

DRM = Digital Rights Management <---- What's not clear about this? DRM does not apply to physical things like books and art unless it's a digital form of it. Books, paintings etc just aren't applicable in a DRM discussion because they are not digital.

 

GOG is DRM, the games distributed by GOG do not have inbuilt DRM or copy protection. I'm saying that platform itself is DRM not the games. It doesn't invalidate GOG moral stance on no DRM and copy protection in games but their service is multiple aspects of what DRM is defined as.

 

Physical game disc has copy protection, the code in the manual is DRM. The code in the manual plays no part in stopping the copying of the game, you could do that as much as you like and the game publisher wouldn't care until you distributed both the copy of the game and the code to unlock it. This became an actual problem so in addition to that they required the disc be present in the CD/DVD drive, smart cloning tools also broke that (yay daemon tools), now making the disc part of DRM. I personally did not like this as it was very inconvenient so used daemon tools to create mini disc images which I could mount to play the games. After this they moved on to online verification of the serial key in the manual to prevent multiple uses of the code, fantastic when they took down the servers and you couldn't verify the code anymore.

 

This is why Steam was such a success, it removed that actual annoyance to consumers and kept publishers happy for a while.

 

I've been PC gaming since DOS, I've lived through the evolution of DRM and copy protection and right now I am happy with Steam, it's better than what we had and is actually stronger at protecting publishers and developers than the previous iteration of copy protection and DRM. Steam has for the most part been a win for everyone and evidence of that is how successful it has been.

a couple of points:

 

-the digital in DRM is not meant to be taken as you did, of course no one expects to be a analog version of rights management this days

-some games in physical format had digital protection (insane variants of this existed trough time, consoles especially made this an art. They were copy protection and they were digital protection as well and they end up being digital form of rights management or DRM), that manual was meant to be an example only. 

-the school book example could be sold only on a digital version, the rest still applies. 

-i get the distinction between copy protection and DRM as you point out, but they serve the same end, you do copy protection to ensure rights management.

 

i still do not agree that the GOG platform is in itself DRM, is just the way they distribute their game, as it could easily be a brick and mortar store if this were 1995. It's just a consequence of being in 2018 and not a DRM implementation.

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, asus killer said:

-the digital in DRM is not meant to be taken as you did, of course no one expects to be a analog version of rights management this days

-some games in physical format had digital protection (insane variants of this existed trough time, consoles especially made this an art. They were copy protection and they were digital protection as well and they end up being digital form of rights management or DRM), that manual was meant to be an example only.

But that is what the Digital is about. The physical format of the game example is nothing like a book because the disc itself contains digital content. That's why there is no analogue/comparable example of books and art that makes logical sense to compare to because they are so fundamentally different.

 

The closest would be a museum or art gallery, the building is the disc and the exhibits inside is the digital content and access is restricted to being at the museum (having the disc). However copying of the museum or what is inside of it is not the same as copying a disc and those copies do not have the same intrinsic value as the original because they are a copy and not the original. Edit: A book could/would have the same value as the original though, not that you are actually allowed to just copy those but like you said nothing stopping you other than laws.

 

Also what is wrong with GOG being a DRM platform? Is it because I'm calling it the great evil name that can't be good no matter what form it comes in or how it's implemented? Seems like that is the only issue you have with it.

 

Again the store example doesn't apply because that is also not digital, it's a physical building with physical inventory however the physical item contains digital content. This is why I would not equate a physical store as DRM because it's not digital.

 

I just personally have no issue with the word DRM and define everything under that umbrella term as equal and all bad as each other, neither do I think it's not necessary or is ineffective, or cannot be defeated.

[ADM-Ntek]

14 hours ago, asus killer said:

steam is no way comparable to spotify or netflix. To be you would pay a subscription to play a x number of games. Origin access or that xbox game pass is as close as you get in games i guess.

you lost me at subscription nothing i would ever touch. cant effort it a month well sucks to be you.

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

However copying of the museum or what is inside of it is not the same as copying a disc and those copies do not have the same intrinsic value as the original because they are a copy and not the original. Edit: A book could/would have the same value as the original though, not that you are actually allowed to just copy those but like you said nothing stopping you other than laws.

 

a book or it's xerox version is not much different from a original version or a craked version of a game, something is lost, craks and shit, but for the end user the value is similar.

The art at a museum is a miss representation, in that analogy the original art is the original code of the game, the original picasso as a different value from it's copy but so does the original code that gets millions of dollars in sales and the copy that is just a copy.

 

I'm not a GOG fanboy, just i still think they deserve to be treated fairly, they made a decision not to do DRM.

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

 

Again the store example doesn't apply because that is also not digital, it's a physical building with physical inventory however the physical item contains digital content. This is why I would not equate a physical store as DRM because it's not digital.

 

 

The store is physical, the disk is physical, but the game is not, is a digital code imprinted on a physical disk sold at a physical store. I guess that's were we disagree.

[leadeater]

53 minutes ago, asus killer said:

The art at a museum is a miss representation, in that analogy the original art is the original code of the game, the original picasso as a different value from it's copy but so does the original code that gets millions of dollars in sales and the copy that is just a copy.

But that is the point though, they have different values. You as the consumer of a game never see the original code or get a copy of it, only a compiled version of it. The museum is the closest example, but as I said it doesn't work because of the fundamental difference between physical content/work and digital which is why they are treated differently.

 

I won't give GOG any special treatment, they can shout DRM free as much as they like but their distribution network is DRM. I'm just not going to pretend it's not because it devalues the discussion around DRM as a whole and how it can have benefits and negative effects.

 

DRM = bad, No DRM = good is such a simplistic way to discuss the topic and leaves no room for discussion and ignores the history of the games industry.

 

The reason why I'm so instant on pointing out that it is in fact DRM is because people are being so selective about what they personally consider DRM and base that almost completely on how much it impacts themselves i.e. This makes my game slower so it's DRM and that is bad. If it's not associated with a negative effect to the consumer then it's not called DRM, that's just not how it works.

 

Ideology doesn't change what something is. The only difference between GOG and Steam is that Steam verifies the purchase of the game every time you play it unless you are in Offline Mode. It's not a minor technical difference but it is a minor functional difference, check once vs check multiple times.

 

53 minutes ago, asus killer said:

I'm not a GOG fanboy, just i still think they deserve to be treated fairly, they made a decision not to do DRM.

And what is not fair about saying GOG is a platform that restricts access to games that have been purchased and verifies that when distributing the content which is DRM, but all purchased games contain no DRM or copy protection. This is a complete description of what is happening.

 

Also it's not just about the end user, you should be prepared to give some middle ground. You can tout DRM free as much as you like but you're not the one having to think about protecting an investment or reputation so it's unfair to not give content owners technical methods of protecting their work because unlike physical work ease of access and distribution is far greater and much higher risk. It's also not fair to to compare GOG to the situation of the larger game franchises because there is such a vast demand difference between the games on GOG and those, and most games on GOG are already rather old and would have already recouped their investment cost (not all games on GOG).

 

Just as an interesting note all the games I've purchased on GOG are games I already own, I have the original versions of them with working discs and the original manuals and serial numbers but it's just more convenient to have a GOG version of the game and the cost was very low (couple of dollars). If they were on Steam I would have purchased on there in preference to GOG.