[Updated with Benchmark*] AC:O gets cracked 3 days after it's update containing Denuvo 4.9

[ARikozuM]

@LinusTech @nicklmg

[vanished]

22 hours ago, Roushik said:

Based on the info from /r/CrackWatch Denuvo is not present in GoG version. Here's the source.

GoG page also states this on the game's page : "DRM-FREE. No activation or online connection required to play."

They are doing gods work.  And sure, probably some people will use their version to make pirating easier, but if I wanted this game, I know which of my available options (buy it on GoG with no DRM, buy it elsewhere with performance-reducing DRM, or pirate it) I'd pick (the first one, if that isn't clear).

[ARikozuM]

8 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

They are doing gods work.  And sure, probably some people will use their version to make pirating easier, but if I wanted this game, I know which of my available options (buy it on GoG with no DRM, buy it elsewhere with performance-reducing DRM, or pirate it) I'd pick (the first one, if that isn't clear).

As long as I can download it any time I feel like playing, it's fine by me. This is coming from a guy who bought Age of Empires 2 four times over 18(?) years b/c he lost track of his discs, though I ended up finding all five of the copies once I moved to Florida...

[jaggysnake57]

well done denuvo.....you all seam to miss the point here, 3 months uncracked. at the end of the day denuvo won as this is there aim. they dont claim to be uncrackable, they claim to slow pirates down.

 

 

on a side, game is shit glad i did not pay for it!

[Mr_Paul_FPV]

On 3/2/2018 at 6:05 PM, Ryujin2003 said:

 

There are studies on both sides of the fence. So, there may not be a 100% solidified answer?

The French goberment just had the idea of doing a study of the game market. Before viewing the content of the article that thay just bought thay just make it dessapear BECAUSE IT WONT HURT IN ANY MEANS THE MARKET.

@LinusSebastian just sead it in one video.

 

Here is one of the articles i just have read.

 

https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/22/eu-suppressed-study-piracy-no-sales-impact/ 

[asus killer]

On 2/3/2018 at 5:17 PM, SC2Mitch said:

I'll be sure to tell that to Bethesda when their game got cracked before launch. 

https://gamingcentral.in/wolfenstein-2-cracked-two-days-launch/

wolfenstein 2 did not had denuvo

 

On 2/5/2018 at 5:33 PM, ARikozuM said:

The only DRM we should have is Steam, Uplay, and... GoG. Nothing else as good management of a library is much better than adding more on top of it unless it’s anti-cheating devices.

 

anything besides denuvo gets cracked in a day, it's just useless.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 9:03 AM, leadeater said:

That and a study under the current environment tells you nothing about what would happen if all forms of DRM and copy protection was removed. Piracy can be fine and dandy now but if it was removed would it stay that way? You'd have to have some impressively sized balls to say nothing will go wrong and the situation won't get worse.

 

I have about as much faith in the general gaming community to not screw it up as people not abusing no free refills at a fast food place, they put those machines in view of staff for a reason and people still get away with it.

there is a study that the EU bought and then tried to hide that said piracy does not affect sale. If you're going to buy it you buy it, if not you just don't. And just because something is downloaded as piracy doesn't mean it's a lost sale, just means that because it's free you go for it, if it were payed there would be a process of analysis: do you have the money, do you really like it, etc.,..

it's stupid to see companies counting piracy downloads as if they were potential sales. 

 

GOG does not have any type of DRM and The Witcher 3 can freely be shared and it sold like crazy so it sounds like arguments that simply do not adhere to reality. In fact DRM can make people not buy games: bad performance, various issues, etc...

 

[Roushik]

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

GOG does not have any type of DRM and The Witcher 3 can freely be shared and it sold like crazy so it sounds like arguments that simply do not adhere to reality. In fact DRM can make people not buy games: bad performance, various issues, etc...

 

Good games sell. That's all. Slap denuvo on a useless game (For e.g. Handball 17 or Puyo Puyo Tetris) and it still won't sell good. Witcher 3 is a great example of a good game with no DRM. A more recent example would be Subnautica. It has steam drm but was cracked within few hours. Despite that it has sold 2M copies. Maybe EA, Ubi and other AAA developers know that they're not making games worthy of selling. AAA games are getting worse and worse.

[ravenshrike]

6 hours ago, jaggysnake57 said:

well done denuvo.....you all seam to miss the point here, 3 months uncracked. at the end of the day denuvo won as this is there aim. they dont claim to be uncrackable, they claim to slow pirates down.

AC:O was the first major game to have a VMProtect wrapper around Denuvo. Significantly new implementations of DRM always take longer.

[jaggysnake57]

3 hours ago, ravenshrike said:

AC:O was the first major game to have a VMProtect wrapper around Denuvo. Significantly new implementations of DRM always take longer.

true i forgot that....still a win for DRM, if you exclude the dropping of performance from the cracked game

[vanished]

4 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

true i forgot that....still a win for DRM, if you exclude the dropping of performance from the cracked game

That's a pretty big thing to exclude

[Ryujin2003]

13 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

true i forgot that....still a win for DRM, if you exclude the dropping of performance from the cracked game

 

8 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

That's a pretty big thing to exclude

 

 

It's a pretty small drop in performance currently. The consoles don't have DRM (as far as I know), and XBox and Playstation seem to have a hard time as well.

[vanished]

3 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

 

 

 

It's a pretty small drop in performance currently. The consoles don't have DRM (as far as I know), and XBox and Playstation seem to have a hard time as well.

They have a hard time regardless so it's a good thing they don't have DRM, they need the help

 

As for being a small difference, no actually it's huge: about 20%

[Derangel]

4 hours ago, Roushik said:

Good games sell.

Bull. Plenty of good games fail and plenty of bad games sell a ton of copies. The reality of the game industry is that most games fail. Good or bad, very few games find good success.

[vanished]

3 minutes ago, Derangel said:

Bull. Plenty of good games fail and plenty of bad games sell a ton of copies. The reality of the game industry is that most games fail. Good or bad, very few games find good success.

ok... but the point is the good ones will sell even if there is an easy option to pirate them, and DRM isn't going to save a game that isn't good enough to win that effect from the pirates.

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, Derangel said:

Bull. Plenty of good games fail and plenty of bad games sell a ton of copies. The reality of the game industry is that most games fail. Good or bad, very few games find good success.

that's your subjective take on "good games". The good games are the ones people buy period. If no one bought a game it's not very good, it may be to some people that's all.

That said there are games that sell like crazy that i don't like, but i deal with it, if everyone's playing it, ergo it's a good game 

[leadeater]

8 hours ago, asus killer said:

there is a study that the EU bought and then tried to hide that said piracy does not affect sale. If you're going to buy it you buy it, if not you just don't. And just because something is downloaded as piracy doesn't mean it's a lost sale, just means that because it's free you go for it, if it were payed there would be a process of analysis: do you have the money, do you really like it, etc.,..

it's stupid to see companies counting piracy downloads as if they were potential sales. 

 

GOG does not have any type of DRM and The Witcher 3 can freely be shared and it sold like crazy so it sounds like arguments that simply do not adhere to reality. In fact DRM can make people not buy games: bad performance, various issues, etc...

Those are still the studies I was referring to, they can only look at the now. It's hard to know exactly what would happen if most DRM restrictions were removed, you're going to increase availability and accessibility of pirated games which could over time increase popularity of acquiring games that way.

 

You can look at those studies and get the conclusion you want for them but all they are really saying is as it stands right now piracy is not negatively effecting the games industry, it's not saying that piracy can't or won't hurt it.

 

Basically the conclusions are:

• Games industry: See what we are currently doing is preventing piracy from hurting us as this study shows
• Pro Pirates: See piracy doesn't hust the games industry so it should be removed

That's just two examples of how you can twist anything you like to get the result you want.

 

It's also dangerous to take one example and say it would equally apply always to every large game franchise, you have no way of knowing what would happen. And you think DRM protest sales would continue to happen years after DRM is removed from games and people wouldn't eventually get apathetic about it and start pirating? There's just so many factors to this, it's just not as simple as people want it to be.

[asus killer]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Those are still the studies I was referring to, they can only look at the now. It's hard to know exactly what would happen if most DRM restrictions were removed, you're going to increase availability and accessibility of pirated games which could over time increase popularity of acquiring games that way.

 

You can look at those studies and get the conclusion you want for them but all they are really saying is as it stands right now piracy is not negatively effecting the games industry, it's not saying that piracy can't or won't hurt it.

 

Basically the conclusions are:

• Games industry: See what we are currently doing is preventing piracy from hurting us as this study shows
• Pro Pirates: See piracy doesn't hust the games industry so it should be removed

That's just two examples of how you can twist anything you like to get the result you want.

 

It's also dangerous to take one example and say it would equally apply always to every large game franchise, you have no way of knowing what would happen. And you think DRM protest sales would continue to happen years after DRM is removed from games and people wouldn't eventually get apathetic about it and start pirating? There's just so many factors to this, it's just not as simple as people want it to be.

think about it this way: every GOG game is free to share. GOG is going strong. It's not just a game.

Then there's still a lot of games that come out with just steam/origin/... DRM, those can be cracked in under a day, and those games still sell, Wolfenstein 2 that someone mentioned is one example. Those are basically DRM free games, all that is Denuvo free is DRM free basically.

And more, some Denuvo games were cracked in record time, Resident Evil 7 was cracked in 5 days, along with a lot of titles, and again that's basically DRM free because at a point every pirate as the expectation that the game (and the ones that follow) is cracked in a couple of days, so who cares about buying it.

 

Still i get your point, it's sound logic. I just think in reality it does not work like that. You basically have people who could not care less and people who knows that you have to support the guys behind The Wither 3 or there will be no The Witcher 4. It's pointless to try and control the behavior or the 1st group, especially when by doing so you are pissing of the 2nd group.

 

Personally i still think the best would be to have a "Netflix" or "Spotify" for games. I have no idea why the industry resists.

[ADM-Ntek]

49 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Personally i still think the best would be to have a "Netflix" or "Spotify" for games. I have no idea why the industry resists.

and how would that work? or be different form steam.

[asus killer]

11 minutes ago, ADM-Ntek said:

and how would that work? or be different form steam.

steam is no way comparable to spotify or netflix. To be you would pay a subscription to play a x number of games. Origin access or that xbox game pass is as close as you get in games i guess.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

Then there's still a lot of games that come out with just steam/origin/... DRM, those can be cracked in under a day, and those games still sell, Wolfenstein 2 that someone mentioned is one example. Those are basically DRM free games, all that is Denuvo free is DRM free basically.

But that's the issue, Steam is still DRM and as I said it's about the perfect amount. People are saying no DRM, zero, where that just isn't needed. Clarity of message is a problem, DRM is a very wide term, Denuvo is a specific tool and does not represent all of DRM.

 

Edit:

Even GOG in a limited capacity is DRM, the games being distrusted by the platform have no embedded restrictions in them but GOG still has control over access and distribution of copy right material, the game. You're still expected to buy the game and that purchase is tracked by GOG and you get access to download the game through your GOG account, this is DRM.

 

The games have no copy protection and you are free to copy it as much as you like to any system you own.

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

But that's the issue, Steam is still DRM and as I said it's about the perfect amount. People are saying no DRM, zero, where that just isn't needed. Clarity of message is a problem, DRM is a very wide term, Denuvo is a specific tool and does not represent all of DRM.

 

Edit:

Even GOG in a limited capacity is DRM, the games being distrusted by the platform have no embedded restrictions in them but GOG still has control over access and distribution of copy right material, the game. You're still expected to buy the game and that purchase is tracked by GOG and you get access to download the game through your GOG account, this is DRM.

 

The games have no copy protection and you are free to copy it as much as you like to any system you own.

ok i get your point. I really couldn't care less as most i guess about steam DRM, but that's DRM that does nothing, serves no purpose. I guess someone still has to crack it, but it's so easy it just escapes me what's it's purpose.

To be fair Denuvo is really the only protection that works... sometimes

 

I don't think the access to GOG platform/site constitutes DRM, once you download the game you are free to share, yes it is copyrighted but i guess it's like sharing a physical disk with a friend, the thing DRM intents to prevent... badly in steam, good sometimes in Denuvo.

 

The best DRM, the one that works all the time, is the one that you could not be bothered to find a place to download a secure virus free copy of the game, installing cracks and so on. You just buy the game, press download, and play. Beside always online games of course.

[RagnarokDel]

16 hours ago, jaggysnake57 said:

well done denuvo.....you all seam to miss the point here, 3 months uncracked. at the end of the day denuvo won as this is there aim. they dont claim to be uncrackable, they claim to slow pirates down.

 

 

on a side, game is shit glad i did not pay for it!

That's the new version they just installed 3 days ago, denuvo 4.8 had been cracked less then a week after AC:O released.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, asus killer said:

ok i get your point. I really couldn't care less as most i guess about steam DRM, but that's DRM that does nothing, serves no purpose. I guess someone still has to crack it, but it's so easy it just escapes me what's it's purpose.

To be fair Denuvo is really the only protection that works... sometimes

 

I don't think the access to GOG platform/site constitutes DRM, once you download the game you are free to share, yes it is copyrighted but i guess it's like sharing a physical disk with a friend, the thing DRM intents to prevent... badly in steam, good sometimes in Denuvo.

 

The best DRM, the one that works all the time, is the one that you could not be bothered to find a place to download a secure virus free copy of the game, installing cracks and so on. You just buy the game, press download, and play. Beside always online games of course.

I think you're forgetting what DRM stands for which is why GOG would actually fall under it. DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, Denuvo is not just DRM it is also copy protection which is a whole different class of product/service.

 

The purpose of DRM is to check and/or enforce you have legitimate access to digital media or content, even Microsoft Office has an enterprise DRM component you can use if you wish which enforces at the file/content level exactly who is allowed to read it/print it/modify it unlike just basic file permissions.

 

Denuvo is both DRM and copy protection/anti-tamper protection, it's the second use of Denuvo that people actually have an issue with not DRM.

 

DRM can be very useful as it defines who is allowed to access something i.e. Steam, Netflix, GOG. How else are you going to know who to serve the download link to on GOG or Steam? Games that use Stream and inherently it's DRM isn't supposed to be impossible to crack it's primary purpose is to do a basic check "Are you allowed this" and it does this quickly and efficiently.  Steam DRM is also good enough to stop people from just simply coping the files to a another persons computer and being able to play it without purchasing it, raising the bar just high enough to counter temptation but not spending large amounts of resources on people who would find a way to pirate it no matter the effort.

 

The issue I see with your best DRM example is that a good game that people want to play is exactly the type of game people would share between friends, so unless it's an online game that requires an account (DRM) you can bet for sure people would be doing that.

[Roushik]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

I think you're forgetting what DRM stands for which is why GOG would actually fall under it. DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, Denuvo is not just DRM it is also copy protection which is a whole different class of product/service.

 

The purpose of DRM is to check and/or enforce you have legitimate access to digital media or content, even Microsoft Office has an enterprise DRM component you can use if you wish which enforces at the file/content level exactly who is allowed to read it/print it/modify it unlike just basic file permissions.

 

Denuvo is both DRM and copy protection/anti-tamper protection, it's the second use of Denuvo that people actually have an issue with not DRM.

 

DRM can be very useful as it defines who is allowed to access something i.e. Steam, Netflix, GOG. How else are you going to know who to serve the download link to on GOG or Steam? Games that use Stream and inherently it's DRM isn't supposed to be impossible to crack it's primary purpose is to do a basic check "Are you allowed this" and it does this quickly and efficiently.  Steam DRM is also good enough to stop people from just simply coping the files to a another persons computer and being able to play it without purchasing it, raising the bar just high enough to counter temptation but not spending large amounts of resources on people who would find a way to pirate it no matter the effort.

 

The issue I see with your best DRM example is that a good game that people want to play is exactly the type of game people would share between friends, so unless it's an online game that requires an account (DRM) you can bet for sure people would be doing that.

I don't have any problem with DRM but when using that DRM results in ~20% performance loss... Also the fact that we need to be online after x amount of time or else we won't be able to use the game. Imagine when Denuvo servers go down. We won't be able to play what we paid for. Then we have a problem.

[asus killer]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

I think you're forgetting what DRM stands for which is why GOG would actually fall under it. DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, Denuvo is not just DRM it is also copy protection which is a whole different class of product/service.

 

The purpose of DRM is to check and/or enforce you have legitimate access to digital media or content, even Microsoft Office has an enterprise DRM component you can use if you wish which enforces at the file/content level exactly who is allowed to read it/print it/modify it unlike just basic file permissions.

 

Denuvo is both DRM and copy protection/anti-tamper protection, it's the second use of Denuvo that people actually have an issue with not DRM.

 

DRM can be very useful as it defines who is allowed to access something i.e. Steam, Netflix, GOG. How else are you going to know who to serve the download link to on GOG or Steam? Games that use Stream and inherently it's DRM isn't supposed to be impossible to crack it's primary purpose is to do a basic check "Are you allowed this" and it does this quickly and efficiently.  Steam DRM is also good enough to stop people from just simply coping the files to a another persons computer and being able to play it without purchasing it, raising the bar just high enough to counter temptation but not spending large amounts of resources on people who would find a way to pirate it no matter the effort.

 

The issue I see with your best DRM example is that a good game that people want to play is exactly the type of game people would share between friends, so unless it's an online game that requires an account (DRM) you can bet for sure people would be doing that.

-this is from Steam:

 

The Steam DRM wrapper by itself is not is not a anti-piracy solution. The Steam DRM wrapper protects against extremely casual piracy (i.e. copying all game files to another computer) and has some obfuscation, but it is easily removed by a motivated attacker.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm

 

 

-this is from GOG:

 

SO WHAT'S WITH THIS DRM THING?

DRM or Digital Rights Management is a kind of copy protection technology used by many companies to limit the usage of digital media. Although designed to stop pirates from creating illegal copies, in reality the only people who are hurt are the legitimate consumers, stripped of their fair use rights, such as the ability to make backup copies.

We believe that a DRM-free world would be a better place and that's why you won't find any DRMs or other intrusive copy protection in items available at GOG.com. This applies to both games and movies.

https://support.gog.com/hc/en-us/articles/212181769-So-what-s-with-this-DRM-thing-

 

 

-This is the definition of DRM:

 

What is DRM?

Digital Restrictions Management is the practice of imposing technological restrictions that control what users can do with digital media. When a program is designed to prevent you from copying or sharing a song, reading an ebook on another device, or playing a single-player game without an Internet connection, you are being restricted by DRM. In other words, DRM creates a damaged good; it prevents you from doing what would be possible without it. 

 

 

I'm sorry but we have to disagree.

GOG is DRM free as you can freely share your game (you shouldn't, but you can). You can install on multiple PC's with no hassle. There is no "management" of the digital rights.

Steam as they say is DRM, and just isn't a anti piracy solution BECAUSE it doesn't work, and they know it.

 

 

PS: this be clear, i'm not one of those nuts that are against all DRM, i get the companies defending their product, i just think it doesn't work, and especially on things like AC:O that only hurts who buys it like GOG says.