Is 7.1 bullshit

[pas008]

10 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

I mean the most important thing is that the person that uses it likes it, so why care if someone else dislikes it... This is kinda the atitude I recommend having in audio, as long as you don't become too narrow minded.

 

The multiple drivers thing is rather odd. I think it got a bad reputation from headsets like the triton pro +, where every single driver is super low quality and you kinda have this echo effect when playing music because they aren't 100% in sync.

 

It is very common in IEMs, like a fairly common setup in the more higher end IEMs is 3 drivers per side, one for bass, one for mids and one for the highs. We see this exact setup with IEMs like the Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor which are known for being extremely good and well extremely flat for a IEM. There are also IEMs with 6 or more drivers in each side. I think the 18+ Pro has that 6 driver per side setup.

 

Yeah I have tried playing around with sbx. I think the last time I played with it was 1½-2 years ago. I never really got it to work like I wanted it to work, it always had this artificial undertone to it no matter what I did, but I will say it is a lot better than what Razer and Dolby has.

care if they are spreading misguided information about it

 

but I do have massive hatred of m50s

to me horrible almost all around

got mine for just under 100 back before some internet streamer streamlined them

and made me feel better about my hd280s which I thought at the time was a buyer remorse issue

[Dackzy]

34 minutes ago, pas008 said:

care if they are spreading misguided information about it

 

but I do have massive hatred of m50s

to me horrible almost all around

got mine for just under 100 back before some internet streamer streamlined them

and made me feel better about my hd280s which I thought at the time was a buyer remorse issue

Well yeah if people share wrong information you should step in and care.

 

Yeah you can see how I feel about my M50 and it has only gotten worse over time, actually a lot worse. They have landed in my school bag, because if something happens to them, then I don't really care. It is kinda my "whatever" headphones. At the same time I have a kind of weird relationship with them, because they kinda gave me the last push to get into audio, which I am grateful for.

[pas008]

19 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Well yeah if people share wrong information you should step in and care.

 

Yeah you can see how I feel about my M50 and it has only gotten worse over time, actually a lot worse. They have landed in my school bag, because if something happens to them, then I don't really care. It is kinda my "whatever" headphones. At the same time I have a kind of weird relationship with them, because they kinda gave me the last push to get into audio, which I am grateful for.

yes calling it a gimmick when there is clearly an audio difference is lies period

that video I linked earlier proves that

 

and my m50s havent touched since last summer on a roadtrip

 

yeah once I tried sbx studios I went so far as getting a zxr, first soundcard for the longest time

but had sli well 3 gpus to drive more monitors, so I got alot of interference

went ahead and made it external with gpu mining riser and a power cord put inside itx case

worked great but fuck was my desk cluttered with dacs/amps/keyboards/etc even had mixer to the right of my legs with amp in audio rack for speakers so I could game listen to music on other pc/tv/phonecalls/etc (wow alot of time tweaks and adjustments just to keep  integrity

then x7 came out

bam all that shit gone

was fun project making it external

[an actual squirrel]

21 hours ago, Drake Mallard said:

Soundstage+Imaging > 7.1

7 hours ago, Majinhoju said:

I tried Dolby headphone and wasn't overly impressed.

I've just decided to stick with stereo.   Like I mentioned earlier some games sound engines handle it well enough on their own that just using stereo you can still hear everything around you nicely.

 

Headphones I use:

When playing alone and not needing to use a mic, I used my Sennheiser 598se

When paying online and needing a mic I use my Cloud II (in stereo mode).  Windows only sees this device as a stereo device anyway and it comes with a 7.1 button which ruins the sound to be honest.  But as far as budget headphones go, they still sound very good in stereo.

The issue with not using virtual surround with headphones is that then you only have 2 angles for the audio. This is not a game engine issue, or a headphone soundstage issue, this is a fundamental limitation of mixing to stereo without hrtf on headphones. This creates a situation where distinguishing between front and back is not reliable since there will be situations where both interpretations are plausible. This can go away when you use virtual 7.1, because that has front and rear channels/angles. This is demonstrated in this video, at 2m42s.

 

 

[Guest]

On 2018-01-25 at 4:36 PM, Max_Settings said:

And I still stand by what I said. Don't you find it odd that the only companies that use virtual surround are gaming companies? Almost as if they were using it to charge you more? If this technology worked actual audio companies would use it.

I had to do some digging, but Jason Stoddard’s blog on head-fi dot org Schiit Audio Ltd. Blog.... had some choice comments to say about proprietary audio codes like virtual surround sound. Short answer = not on his little silver boxes!

 

I’ve yet to add my Schiit stack to my console. I link up to my XB1 using the discontinued Turtle Beach DSS2 device. I play video games solely with headphones. Other than the output becoming muddier, I can’t decide whether the turning on/off SSound (the processing w/in the little box) adds or detracts from the experience.

 

Just my 2 cents. This is indeed a LIVELY thread.

[Max_Settings]

12 minutes ago, PrometheanCat2 said:

I had to do some digging, but Jason Stoddard’s blog on head-fi dot org Schiit Audio Ltd. Blog.... had some choice comments to say about proprietary audio codes like virtual surround sound. Short answer = not on his little silver boxes!

 

I’ve yet to add my Schiit stack to my console. I link up to my XB1 using the discontinued Turtle Beach DSS2 device. I play video games solely with headphones. Other than the output becoming muddier, I can’t decide whether the turning on/off SSound (the processing w/in the little box) adds or detracts from the experience.

 

Just my 2 cents. This is indeed a LIVELY thread.

Exactly, if it was a legitimate technology it would be used by real audio companies. Apparently people don’t find it odd that only gaming companies use it. 

[an actual squirrel]

10 hours ago, Max_Settings said:

Exactly, if it was a legitimate technology it would be used by real audio companies. Apparently people don’t find it odd that only gaming companies use it. 

The main company that comes to mind when i think about this is Dolby. I also think about creative sound cards, which license their tech from THX iirc.

[Max_Settings]

12 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

The main company that comes to mind when i think about this is Dolby. I also think about creative sound cards, which license their tech from THX iirc.

They license their tech from THX? You mean Razer....

[an actual squirrel]

29 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

They license their tech from THX? You mean Razer....

The software was originally called THX trustudio pc before it was changed to sbx pro studio.

 

In the high end, there is also the Smyth Realiser. That's not accessible because of price, but it should work the best because it comes with in ear microphones so it is customized per individual.

[Max_Settings]

1 minute ago, an actual squirrel said:

The software was originally called THX trustudio pc before it was changed to sbx pro studio.

 

In the high end, there is also the Smyth Realiser. That's not accessible because of price, but it should work the best because it comes with in ear microphones so it is customized per individual.

Still I don’t know why you keep talking about speakers. We are talking about surround in headphones that was the entire point of this thread.

[Max_Settings]

16 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

The issue with not using virtual surround with headphones is that then you only have 2 angles for the audio. This is not a game engine issue, or a headphone soundstage issue, this is a fundamental limitation of mixing to stereo without hrtf on headphones. This creates a situation where distinguishing between front and back is not reliable since there will be situations where both interpretations are plausible. This can go away when you use virtual 7.1, because that has front and rear channels/angles. This is demonstrated in this video, at 2m42s.

 

 

Also this is the dumbest thing ever. You literally said it’s hard to determine front to back because there’s only 2 drivers. Then you say 7.1 adds front channels, but there are still two drivers...

[leelaa14]

I use the gsx 1000 with ad700x.. 7.1 mode clearly adds better directional awareness without a doubt over stereo.

[an actual squirrel]

1 hour ago, Max_Settings said:

Also this is the dumbest thing ever. You literally said it’s hard to determine front to back because there’s only 2 drivers. Then you say 7.1 adds front channels, but there are still two drivers...

Yes, because you are adding in extra information to make it sound like a binaural track, where those extra angles can exist. To understand why this is possible in binaural tracks, you have to know how people get directions from sounds in the first place, which is from looking at the difference between the 2 ears in timing and frequency response. 

 

So you have 7.1 audio, which is already structured so that each channel represents a different angle. Then your dsp can look at the angles and add in the differential timing and frequency response information that corresponds to those angles. Then you have binaural audio with those extra angles.

[Max_Settings]

1 hour ago, an actual squirrel said:

Yes, because you are adding in extra information to make it sound like a binaural track, where those extra angles can exist. To understand why this is possible in binaural tracks, you have to know how people get directions from sounds in the first place, which is from looking at the difference between the 2 ears in timing and frequency response. 

 

So you have 7.1 audio, which is already structured so that each channel represents a different angle. Then your dsp can look at the angles and add in the differential timing and frequency response information that corresponds to those angles. Then you have binaural audio with those extra angles.

Yes but the algorithm does a terrible job of converting audio into binaural that’s the point.

[Max_Settings]

Also I like how every one of the main audiophile members who’ve commented on this post have all been against 7.1

[an actual squirrel]

But there's actual consequences for gaming. In that pub g video, there is the demonstration at 2min 42s, where the video asks you to track an object first without virtual surround, and then with it. It goes from being impossible to being possible.

 

I do recognize that a lot of people are currently against virtual 7.1 for headphones. I think this is going to be one of those things we look back on as a mistake, like when people used to say that there was no point to having more than a 60hz refresh rate for monitors or more than 400 dpi for mice (pixel skipping).

[pas008]

3 hours ago, leelaa14 said:

I use the gsx 1000 with ad700x.. 7.1 mode clearly adds better directional awareness without a doubt over stereo.

yes virtual surround works

1 hour ago, Max_Settings said:

Yes but the algorithm does a terrible job of converting audio into binaural that’s the point.

depends on the virtual surround software and user lol

1 hour ago, Max_Settings said:

Also I like how every one of the main audiophile members who’ve commented on this post have all been against 7.1

like said many times there games that do it great where virtual surround isnt needed

but many games that have horrible sound

and many dont want to mess with it either because of the fact they listen to music also, and their issue with music

up to user again

15 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

But there's actual consequences for gaming. In that pub g video, there is the demonstration at 2min 42s, where the video asks you to track an object first without virtual surround, and then with it. It goes from being impossible to being possible.

 

I do recognize that a lot of people are currently against virtual 7.1 for headphones. I think this is going to be one of those things we look back on as a mistake, like when people used to say that there was no point to having more than a 60hz refresh rate for monitors or more than 400 dpi for mice (pixel skipping).

its funny because many state its hogwash when in fact many people can obviously tell the difference

and yes some virtual surround algorithms suck

and I believe creative renamed the sbx from thx is because they were planning off to sell thx off which they

did I dont think they pay for license at all

[GamerDude]

Well, the day virtual surround software algorithm can emulate a virtual 7.1 sound accurately would be the day I'd adopt it. Right now, I'm pretty happy with 'just stereo' playing with myself.....by myself that is.

[Guest]

Re: 7.1 marketed to gamers.  Are music lovers exempt from the latest whoo whoo? I'm not so sure now, as I saw this as a banner ad at headfi dot org.  I'll just leave this hear/here, and back away slowly....

 

https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi

Edited January 28, 2018 by Guest
...adding a couple of whoos...

[pas008]

4 minutes ago, PrometheanCat2 said:

Re: 7.1 marketed to gamers.  Are music lovers exempt from the latest whoo whoo? I'm not so sure now, as I saw this as a banner ad at headfi dot org.  I'll just leave this hear/here, and back away slowly....

 

https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi

Funny thing there are many users of headfi that wanted dolby games back in the day

Now many are becoming elitist and want purity

Yes for music

But gaming is a different story

Like I said depends on the music

Not sure if many listen to pink floyd even on vinyl

But they recorded many tracks on quad channel and you can great big difference even with virtual surround

My buddy with lcd2 loves keeping things clean but was amazed with sbx 

Not enough to convert but enough he will respect it

Oh i love those lcd2s it's a whole different lvl spacial sound

[Max_Settings]

2 hours ago, GamerDude said:

Well, the day virtual surround software algorithm can emulate a virtual 7.1 sound accurately would be the day I'd adopt it. Right now, I'm pretty happy with 'just stereo' playing with myself.....by myself that is.

@pas008 once again, top 3 audiophile memeber, says nope the technology doesn’t work and isn’t good.

[Max_Settings]

@pas008 this would be my short list of the bigger audiophile forum members.

 

@Dackzy

@GamerDude

@seduce_me

@monjanger

@spwath

@FloRolf

@SSL

@h264

 

So far all the ones in this list that have commented on this thread have claimed that virtual 7.1 is BS and that it isn’t a good technology in the current state. I would be curious to see what the others says. But once again I stand by what I said, the technology doesn’t work due to the actual physical limitation of 2 drivers. And actual headphone companies would use it if it worked.

[pas008]

5 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

@pas008 once again, top 3 audiophile memeber, says nope the technology doesn’t work and isn’t good.

Audiophiles have what to do with gaming sound?

They play lol, cod, pubg, fc, crysis,

 

Continue to be a trollie audiophile wannabe

Many hear the difference

Shall i link that video again for the millionth time 

Or are you going to be filled with hate like usual

 

Lol be filled with hate

[Max_Settings]

Just now, pas008 said:

Audiophiles have what to do with gaming sound?

They play lol, cod, pubg, fc, crysis,

 

Continue to be a trollie audiophile wannabe

Many hear the difference

Shall i link that video again for the millionth time 

Or are you going to be filled with hate like usual

 

Lol be filled with hate

I’m not doubting there’s a difference, I’m saying it makes the experience worse. And no you don’t need to link the video. And I’m being a troll? You seem to be standing pretty alone in this thread, while so far all the big audiophile people on this forum have agreed with me. 

[pas008]

1 minute ago, Max_Settings said:

@pas008 this would be my short list of the bigger audiophile forum members.

 

@Dackzy

@GamerDude

@seduce_me

@monjanger

@spwath

@FloRolf

@SSL

@h264

 

So far all the ones in this list that have commented on this thread have claimed that virtual 7.1 is BS and that it isn’t a good technology in the current state. I would be curious to see what the others says. But once again I stand by what I said, the technology doesn’t work due to the actual physical limitation of 2 drivers. And actual headphone companies would use it if it worked.

Bring them on bet you they Will tell you they can hear a difference

They May not like it nite they're is a difference