Nvidia asks retailers to stop selling gpu's to miners

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, Sierra Fox said:

this forum is so dumb

 

you people: Miners are killing the gaming and GPU market, everything is so expensive, they should prevent miners from buying (so many) cards

 

this thread: Bullshit, this is all a PR stunt, fuck you NVidia

It's simple.

On this forum AMD can do no wrong, and Intel/Nvidia are both literally run by the devil.

[abazigal]

3 hours ago, ThatGuyWhoTwirlsHisPen said:

Oh, so no resale value back to the increasing PC gaming market once you cash out or this bullshit monopoly money crashes? So basically worthless.

I don’t think I want a second-hand graphics card that was previously used for mining anyways. 

[asus killer]

3 hours ago, givingtnt said:

funny story
the other day I went to canada computers, a guy walked off with 18 1080ti's
with over 1000 on order.

as a manufacturer once you sell to retailers there is virtually no any to control who retailers will or will not sell something

you cannot go over retailers on this, like selling direct, because you need them

for a retailer the good customer is the guy that buys 18 1080ti's not the one that goes there to buy one.

i don't think that you can discriminate buyers or refuse sales, i really think it's illegal. At most you can put a limit on units sold to a customer but that is easy to cheat by the buyer.

 

nvidia knows this, only they can change this. And they still refuse to do something about it. That's just PR BS

[Bananasplit_00]

all this really does for me, is make me want to mine tbh. GPU prices arent insaine here yet 

[D13H4RD]

Welp, guess it's time for me to wait. 

 

It's funny though, because we're at the point where a pre-built or even a gaming laptop can be seen as better value.

[Xander Cousins]

3 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

It's funny though, because we're at the point where a pre-built or even a gaming laptop can be seen as better value.

I Don't know about that yet, My brother bought a prebuilt PC for £300 pound roughly and it seems to perform worse than mine did when I got my prebuilt pc for £300 nearly 4 years ago now.

[D13H4RD]

5 minutes ago, Alex Colson said:

I Don't know about that yet, My brother bought a prebuilt PC for £300 pound roughly and it seems to perform worse than mine did when I got my prebuilt pc for £300 nearly 4 years ago now.

Idk, the ones I looked at are slowly looking like better value over building an equivalent almost solely due to the GPU price gouging 

[Xander Cousins]

2 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Idk, the ones I looked at are slowly looking like better value over building an equivalent almost solely due to the GPU price gouging 

Will agree with that point, I Did try to design one for him but to have a decent GPU it was costing the CPU side to be punished, should go back and see if I can find a compromise... Hmm  

[LAwLz]

2 minutes ago, asus killer said:

as a manufacturer once you sell to retailers there is virtually no any to control who retailers will or will not sell something

you cannot go over retailers on this, like selling direct, because you need them

for a retailer the good customer is the guy that buys 18 1080ti's not the one that goes there to buy one.

i don't think that you can discriminate buyers or refuse sales, i really think it's illegal. At most you can put a limit on units sold to a customer but that is easy to cheat by the buyer.

 

nvidia knows this, only they can change this. And they still refuse to do something about it. That's just PR BS

What are you on about?

How are Nvidia the only ones that can change things and how can they change it?

[RagnarokDel]

3 hours ago, LinusTech said:

I find that pretty hard to believe. Even going back as far as RoG Rig Reboot we had vendor reps joking about how promoting 1080 Tis for that contest was madness since no one could even keep them in stock or get enough of them

Yield for a 1080 ti sized chip are probably considerably lower then 1060s which is the most used GPU for gaming

[asus killer]

48 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What are you on about?

How are Nvidia the only ones that can change things and how can they change it?

who else can change it? 

make cards less appealing to miners of course, decrease the hash rate. Miners don't like gddr5x or hbm because it has higher latency for example. I'm not a miner but it's easy to know what they don't like in a card and do the opposite.

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, asus killer said:

who else can change it? 

make cards less appealing to miners of course, decrease the hash rate. Miners don't like gddr5x or hbm because it has higher latency for example. I'm not a miner but it's easy to know what they don't like in a card and do the opposite.

So your suggestion is that Nvidia ("the only ones who can solve this") makes a new generation of cards which performs worse than the previous generation? That sounds like a terrible idea that everyone loses from.

 

The problem with "decreasing the hash rate" is that you can't do that without impacting performance for other things. Gimp that and you gimp other performance too.

If you introduce some driver change then people can just download the old driver.

 

GDDR5X cards are fine for mining too. From what I know they are not exactly optimal, but people use them for mining. So your recommendation is to start using HBM? That would just make the price and availability problem even larger.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 minute ago, asus killer said:

I'm not a miner but it's easy to know what they don't like in a card and do the opposite.

For example, they don't like low performance and bad power efficiency. AFAIK gamers don't like those either, but if anyone does, the second hand market is full of older cards fitting the profile. Heck, low performance is enough, you can keep power efficiency if you want.

Sadly, diverting resources intro producing worse cards would only make the price of good ones higher.

[asus killer]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

So your suggestion is that Nvidia ("the only ones who can solve this") makes a new generation of cards which performs worse than the previous generation? That sounds like a terrible idea that everyone loses from.

 

The problem with "decreasing the hash rate" is that you can't do that without impacting performance for other things. Gimp that and you gimp other performance too.

If you introduce some driver change then people can just download the old driver.

i gave just an example, and i did not follow you on that, gddr5x is worst? 

The drivers is one thing that could help, if all the new cards had mining unfriendly bios, it would not work for the cards on the market like you say, but could be changed for new cards.

[LAwLz]

15 minutes ago, asus killer said:

i gave just an example, and i did not follow you on that, gddr5x is worst? 

Reducing performance by changing the VRAM doesn't solve the issues.

Switching to GDDR5X wouldn't help because they are still bought. On top of that it would drive prices up even more since it is just more expensive. Even if GDDR5X is slower for mining than GDDR5 the performance drop is not enough for people to avoid those cards.

 

Switching to HBM wouldn't solve the issues either. Right now the issues are high prices and a lack of stock, correct? Want to know what drawbacks HBM has compared to GDDR? It costs more and there is a shortage of it. So switching to HBM wouldn't help either.

 

On top of that, you can't just switch memory with ease. Nvidia would have to release a whole new lineup of cards with re-engineered memory interfaces. That would cost quite a bit to do, and as explained above it would't solve the issues.

 

 

Another way of making the cards less appealing to miners would be to cripple mining performance through other means (reduce the performance of the software, or GPU core).

 

The problem with those is that releasing a new GPU core (new generation of cards) is that if you reduce hash performance then you will also reduce performance in other tasks. So that is not something you want to do.

 

Reducing performance in software wouldn't work either because people could just download old drivers if they wanted to mine.

The same could be done for BIOSes. Just download the old ones. Hell, the really serious miners are using custom BIOSes and drivers already.

[D13H4RD]

1 hour ago, Alex Colson said:

Will agree with that point, I Did try to design one for him but to have a decent GPU it was costing the CPU side to be punished, should go back and see if I can find a compromise... Hmm  

Depends how badly it is compromised. 

[kerradeph]

5 hours ago, Name Taken said:

They can still be used for CUDA accelerated video rendering or folding for example, and even gaming with no display output.

 

 

Ooh, Thank you for pointing this out. I heard about the mining lineup and was wondering if I could get one of the higher end ones for something like folding at home or something. This would allow some level of gaming on it. 

[asus killer]

35 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Reducing performance by changing the VRAM doesn't solve the issues.

Switching to GDDR5X wouldn't help because they are still bought. On top of that it would drive prices up even more since it is just more expensive. Even if GDDR5X is slower for mining than GDDR5 the performance drop is not enough for people to avoid those cards.

 

Switching to HBM wouldn't solve the issues either. Right now the issues are high prices and a lack of stock, correct? Want to know what drawbacks HBM has compared to GDDR? It costs more and there is a shortage of it. So switching to HBM wouldn't help either.

 

On top of that, you can't just switch memory with ease. Nvidia would have to release a whole new lineup of cards with re-engineered memory interfaces. That would cost quite a bit to do, and as explained above it would't solve the issues.

 

 

Another way of making the cards less appealing to miners would be to cripple mining performance through other means (reduce the performance of the software, or GPU core).y

 

The problem with those is that releasing a new GPU core (new generation of cards) is that if you reduce hash performance then you will also reduce performance in other tasks. So that is not something you want to do.

 

Reducing performance in software wouldn't work either because people could just download old drivers if they wanted to mine.

The same could be done for BIOSes. Just download the old ones. Hell, the really serious miners are using custom BIOSes and drivers already.

you didn't get my gddr5x point at all. I did not meant to use it as "they should do this or that" argument, but just to show that there is things that miners like less and you could go there. Not necessarily that they should change all cards to gddr5x. There are for sure a lot other things they can change and a lot other things miners hate, i don't know much about mining and just gave that example because it was something i came across in a mining forum. Maybe one change may not be enough to make them unappealing, but a few changes combined may work.

Regarding BIOS Intel does not let you overclock certain chips or use the 8th gen on the 6th and 7th gen mobos, and that it's locked and there is nothing you can do, no custom BIOS you can make... apparently or it would be on the wild. So there is ways to do it, if you want or care to do them.

 

edit: and i don't say nvidia and amd should loose mining sales, they have every right to get that money, just separate gaming and mining cards. Make ones less appealing to miners and the others more.

[cj09beira]

12 minutes ago, asus killer said:

you didn't get my gddr5x point at all. I did not meant to use it as "they should do this or that" argument, but just to show that there is things that miners like less and you could go there. Not necessarily that they should change all cards to gddr5x. There are for sure a lot other things they can change and a lot other things miners hate, i don't know much about mining and just gave that example because it was something i came across in a mining forum. Maybe one change may not be enough to make them unappealing, but a few changes combined may work.

Regarding BIOS Intel does not let you overclock certain chips or use the 8th gen on the 6th and 7th gen mobos, and that it's locked and there is nothing you can do, no custom BIOS you can make... apparently or it would be on the wild. So there is ways to do it, if you want or care to do them.

there is only one way to reduce the mining problem, which is by preventing amazon/newegg/etc to sell more than 1/2 cards per person and then miners buy directly from aibs/distributors that way the distribution chain can allocate volume to the retailers and give the rest to miners.

you cant prevent mining software from running well as there isn't anything different to mining compared to gaming/rendering. 

hbm isn't worse for mining at all, simply the original fury x card wasn't the best card for mining, but vega for example is great for it, and so is the titan v, in which both use hbm.

bios moding only happens on Rx series cards as all nvidea cards and vega cards are locked with bios verification protocols, you can slightly improve vega 56 cards by using vega 64's bios (higher tdp and higher hbm voltage) but thats about it.

 

 

[LAwLz]

45 minutes ago, asus killer said:

you didn't get my gddr5x point at all. I did not meant to use it as "they should do this or that" argument, but just to show that there is things that miners like less and you could go there.

Well that's the way your post came off as since you said:

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

I'm not a miner but it's easy to know what they don't like in a card and do the opposite.

 

 

47 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Not necessarily that they should change all cards to gddr5x. There are for sure a lot other things they can change and a lot other things miners hate, i don't know much about mining and just gave that example because it was something i came across in a mining forum. Maybe one change may not be enough to make them unappealing, but a few changes combined may work.

The problem is that you can't do that though. There is no practical way of making cards worse for mining without making them worse at other tasks or introduce other drawbacks.

 

48 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Regarding BIOS Intel does not let you overclock certain chips or use the 8th gen on the 6th and 7th gen mobos, and that it's locked and there is nothing you can do, no custom BIOS you can make... apparently or it would be on the wild. So there is ways to do it, if you want or care to do them.

There is a very big difference between locking a multiplier compared to doing some workload signature detection and throttling in the card's BIOS.

You can not throttle specifically mining through BIOSes. It would have to throttle a specific workload, and that would affect all programs, not just mining. In order to throttle specifically mining you would need to analyze the workload being run, and then apply the throttling when it detects a specific signature. That could be done on the driver level, but people could just use the old drivers.

 

54 minutes ago, asus killer said:

So there is ways to do it, if you want or care to do them.

Can you give a suggestion on how to do it? So far you have suggested two things.

1) Change memory - wouldn't work for the reasons described in my previous post.

2) Reduce performance with some BIOS settings - Wouldn't work either because it would impact all programs not just mining.

 

57 minutes ago, asus killer said:

edit: and i don't say nvidia and amd should loose mining sales, they have every right to get that money, just separate gaming and mining cards. Make ones less appealing to miners and the others more.

But HOW would they do that?

Rumors has it that they will release mining cards which lack the video ports, but that won't make gaming cards less appealing to miners. It just gives miners more options and leaves gamers with the same amount.

The problem is that there is no good way of making gaming cards less appealing to miners without also making them less appealing to gamers.

[kerradeph]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

But HOW would they do that?

Rumors has it that they will release mining cards which lack the video ports, but that won't make gaming cards less appealing to miners. It just gives miners more options and leaves gamers with the same amount.

The problem is that there is no good way of making gaming cards less appealing to miners without also making them less appealing to gamers.

It sounds like they're already out. It's the P10x-100 series. Like the P104-100 is about on par with the 1080 and the p106-100 is about on par with the 1060. And it sounds like these are fairly available from Alibaba. 

[genexis_x]

Seems like Nvidia and AMD also have no idea what to do right now in order to control the prices

[cj09beira]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Well that's the way your post came off as since you said:

The problem is that you can't do that though. There is no practical way of making cards worse for mining without making them worse at other tasks or introduce other drawbacks.

There is a very big difference between locking a multiplier compared to doing some workload signature detection and throttling in the card's BIOS.

You can not throttle specifically mining through BIOSes. It would have to throttle a specific workload, and that would affect all programs, not just mining. In order to throttle specifically mining you would need to analyze the workload being run, and then apply the throttling when it detects a specific signature. That could be done on the driver level, but people could just use the old drivers.

Can you give a suggestion on how to do it? So far you have suggested two things.

1) Change memory - wouldn't work for the reasons described in my previous post.

2) Reduce performance with some BIOS settings - Wouldn't work either because it would impact all programs not just mining.

But HOW would they do that?

Rumors has it that they will release mining cards which lack the video ports, but that won't make gaming cards less appealing to miners. It just gives miners more options and leaves gamers with the same amount.

The problem is that there is no good way of making gaming cards less appealing to miners without also making them less appealing to gamers.

maybe if mining proves to be a stable market in the future (very big if) amd/nvidea could make more cards, but since last time when amd got burned hard when the bobble burst they are being more cautious about increasing supply.

2 minutes ago, kerradeph said:

It sounds like they're already out. It's the P10x-100 series. Like the P104-100 is about on par with the 1080 and the p106-100 is about on par with the 1060. And it sounds like these are fairly available from Alibaba. 

ya but most miners dont even want those cards as they have much lower resale value thanks to the lack of display outputs, they are usually also not cheaper, so its not much more than a failed attempt.

[cj09beira]

Just now, ZM Fong said:

Seems like Nvidia and AMD also have no idea what to do right now in order to control the prices

they know what to do but its not up to them, from what i understand they only produce what aibs ask for, so its up to aibs (asus/gigabyte/etc) to ask for more cards, they are also the ones with more to loose if the bubble bursts.

[Sakkura]

6 hours ago, Damascus said:

And ssds, sshdds and everything else using nand (including gpus)

 

6 hours ago, Damascus said:

Not all nand is equal but if we believe the GN video manufacturers have seen $20-30 more cost for RMA per gpu.  Thats massive and will definitely hurt the consumers wallet.

Graphics cards do not use NAND flash.

 

Except for some oddball niche products from AMD, but not regular gaming cards.