Your thoughts on mining and the GPU shortage?

[Colty]

3 hours ago, Mick Naughty said:

Some do. Some prefer not to waste time and money on then. 

The difference between a 980Ti and a 1070 (after electricity costs) is just $14 a month. The difference in ROI is heavily in the 900 series' favor. The 970 and the 1060 6GB have a difference of just $8, the 980 and the 1060 6GB is $3. I'd much more quickly get a mining rig of five 970s/980s than the very popular 1060 rigs that you see nowadays. 

(source: https://www.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator/nvidia-gtx-980?e=0.1&currency=USD )

[bomerr]

Nvidia and AMD a duopoly so that means increased demand for GPUs will result in increased prices. Mining is bad for gamers looking to buy new GPUs. Mining might be good for used gamers when miners dump their current stock for new GPUs. 

[Mick Naughty]

6 hours ago, Colty said:

The difference between a 980Ti and a 1070 (after electricity costs) is just $14 a month. The difference in ROI is heavily in the 900 series' favor. The 970 and the 1060 6GB have a difference of just $8, the 980 and the 1060 6GB is $3. I'd much more quickly get a mining rig of five 970s/980s than the very popular 1060 rigs that you see nowadays. 

(source: https://www.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator/nvidia-gtx-980?e=0.1&currency=USD )

I wouldn’t bother with any of those. If we are talking team green, it’s 1070ti or 1080ti. Would rather make more money faster and pay a little more at the beginning. If someone wants to scrape together some cheap mining rig, I’m sure they will look at those cards. 

[maizenblue]

I dont see the situation improving substantially any time soon

15 hours ago, Colty said:

I think it's a little blown out of proportion. You can find MSRP cards (just watch /r/buildapcsales) and you can find GTX 980Ti's for $300-350 on craigslist and $400 on ebay. That performs about as well as the 1070. And is still super profitable for mining. I picked one up just a week ago and it's been great for miming and gaming. I've also found GTX 1060 3GB cards for cheap, which you can still mine with if you want to put a bit of money in your pocket. Even the drastically underrated GTX 950 and GTX 960 can be found for a good deal. I grabbed a 950 for $60 just for mining and resale. That card makes a dollar a day, two months later and it's a free card that does great for 1080p 60Hz. I think that 10 series cards are greatly hurt by this, but if you just look at 900 series, there are a lot available if you're just gaming. 

I dont think its blown out of proportion at all. Just at a time when pc gaming was taking off and going mainstream, replacing consoles, this has put high end gaming out of reach for a lot of people. 

 

These are people who were on the fence about building a gaming pc and will now probably never get into it.  

 

It should be a boon for consoles if this lasts. 

[KarathKasun]

Its a boon for laptops honestly.  You can get a gaming capable laptop for less than a similar desktop now, and they are selling quite well.  I have several clients that have made the switch to laptops this last year, and they have all been very happy with what they got for their money.

 

The GTX 10 series GPUs are the only real reason this is happening.  You can get desktop class gaming performance without much compromise.

[Jrasero]

I think this Timmy Joe guy offers a REAL solution and unlike Jay who comes off as just some wining incoherent "gamer" who is making a video more for clicks rather than content

 

simply Jay stop producing for clicks and take 5 extra minutes to write a script to figure out a solution a problem a lot of the "community" has.  No offense but if a guy with 26k followers can followers can come up with a half decent solution in 10 minutes imagine what Jay could do with his pull

[Jrasero]

On 1/19/2018 at 3:54 PM, KarathKasun said:

Mining to put food on the table is a sign that you are incapable of working for a living wage.  You either lack skill or social ability and are expecting a segment of the PC industry to be your parents and supply you with that free money.  Don't even argue this point, you guys think "I can abuse a market bubble with a device I just plug in that generates free money" without thought to the repercussions of such behavior.

 

Most miners I have seen live in relatively cold climates too, where you can cool a rig for "free".  Try mining in south Texas, where every watt of heat produced requires two more to remove.  Your ROI suddenly moves out to 12 months or more for a decently large coin farm.

Working is working, nothing is free.  I know people that have put their live savings into this or have legit financial backing in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's not abusing the market, it's called opportunity.  People aren't keeping water out of third world countries or charging $5k or HIV meads, we are talking about cards based on gaming, which again for most of the world is a hobby at best.  

 

 

[bcredeur97]

On 1/19/2018 at 5:30 PM, Colty said:

I think it's a little blown out of proportion. You can find MSRP cards (just watch /r/buildapcsales) and you can find GTX 980Ti's for $300-350 on craigslist and $400 on ebay. That performs about as well as the 1070. And is still super profitable for mining. I picked one up just a week ago and it's been great for miming and gaming. I've also found GTX 1060 3GB cards for cheap, which you can still mine with if you want to put a bit of money in your pocket. Even the drastically underrated GTX 950 and GTX 960 can be found for a good deal. I grabbed a 950 for $60 just for mining and resale. That card makes a dollar a day, two months later and it's a free card that does great for 1080p 60Hz. I think that 10 series cards are greatly hurt by this, but if you just look at 900 series, there are a lot available if you're just gaming. 

 

I honestly find it silly that miners don't try to pickup 900 series cards on the cheap. I know the 900 series cards have still gone up in price since the mining craze, but not as drastically and they're still very profitable. 

not as efficient though. For example, a GTX 970 will do about 2 sols/watt at equihash at best, while a 1080 will do 4 sols/watt

I'd assume the 980ti is better, but still not as good as newer cards. For a lot of people this won't matter too much though.

 

 

a bit of a side topic: some miners take very good care of their cards. Run them with much lower TDP's than stock, keep temps really low, etc. Which is all easy to do if you optimize for efficiency rather than outright hashrate. So if you can find a seller that you know took care of his cards, I still think it's an excellent used card buy. Only concern would be the fans I guess. But again, if he ran them at a lower TDP than stock, then they don't necessarily need to be run at high speed. Some card's have fans that are pretty easily and cheaply replaced as well.

[xGGAx]

This mining craze is a big bubble. This is what will happen:

 

-Crypto market crashes

-Tons of used cards will flood the market

-Next gen cards will be out by then, so no one will buy old cards except for budget builds

 

We should not worry about the gpu market, but the memory market. 

RAM prices keep rising and this has been going on for almost 2 years now. Expensive flash = expensive gpus, SSDs and RAM. Some people even suggest that phone prices will rise as well this 2018.

[KarathKasun]

On 1/22/2018 at 8:47 AM, Jrasero said:

Working is working, nothing is free.  I know people that have put their live savings into this or have legit financial backing in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's not abusing the market, it's called opportunity.  People aren't keeping water out of third world countries or charging $5k or HIV meads, we are talking about cards based on gaming, which again for most of the world is a hobby at best.  

 

 

Just wait until all those with 100% investment see their coin of choice crash.  Then the hardware will also be worthless to boot.  Are they going to eat their GPUs?

[Colty]

1 hour ago, KarathKasun said:

Just wait until all those with 100% investment see their coin of choice crash.  Then the hardware will also be worthless to boot.  Are they going to eat their GPUs?

They won't be "useless" they'll just drop in relative value. When a used 1060 6GB is found for $150 on Craigslist, those people will still only need to have made $100 for mining to break even. So as long as they've been mining for a month and a half, they're net positive. And while the current market may crash, a lot of people will hold onto their rigs in hopes of something becoming profitable again. And one more thing to remember, a 1060 6GB costs $12.42 a month to run with an elec. bill of $0.10/kWh. You only need to make $0.42 a day for it to be profitable. I don't think mining is going to get THAT low anytime soon. I do think a sudden drop of about 30% would cause a lot of people to back out though, which would only help the gaming market and the more determined miners. 

[KarathKasun]

Useless from an investment sense, where you have lost money.

 

Your point about value dropping by ~30% is somewhat possible, except that coins are susceptible to a market run because they have no worth.  If it drops to levels where mining viability is bad, you will see many coins crash to what would effectively be a negative value.  Coin valued at zero with time/money/energy invested is worth less than nothing.

 

The longer the bubble stays inflated the worse the crash is going to be.

[Gix7Fifty]

I think everyone will try to capitalize on the topic, specifically youtubers. So if you don't like what is going on then boycott and get the achievement of actually going outside with other hobbies. You milleanials and your right to entitlement,...jeez.

[KarathKasun]

2 minutes ago, Gix7Fifty said:

I think everyone will try to capitalize on the topic, specifically youtubers. So if you don't like what is going on then boycott and get the achievement of actually going outside with other hobbies. You milleanials and your right to entitlement,...jeez.

Except for those of us who are doing projects that need GPU power.  Real-time complex navigation systems are a good example of this, and its something I am actively working on.

 

GPU's have other uses aside from gaming and mining.

[Tsuki]

On 1/19/2018 at 7:51 AM, Jrasero said:

For one this is a guy who has enough parts to startup his own Best Buy and regularly gets free parts from vendors, so price gauging wise and availability this guy is not effected. 

This isnt actually true.  Many of the parts that he gets these days(moreso cpu's than gpu's but still), he purchased with his own money. So he is very much affected by price gouging.

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Seconds he clearly comes off despising mining, which is his own personal belief but this is the dude that makes thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars off YouTube and his 1.3 million subscribers, so where do we draw this philosophical line on what profession is more moral?

you seem to vastly over-estimate how much money youtubers make.  most of the money he makes is from sponserships and ad partners. youtube doesnt actually pay shit if you're not 'preferred' (which i doubt he is).  He works incredibly hard for every single day, so how is his profession immoral?

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 Overall he talks about being part of the "gaming" community and how the small guys who want that $200 card now have to pay $600, yet offers no solution and makes it known he will never sell a user one of his own GPUs at cost.  What a nice guy.

the people this is hurting most are the ones who want to get into pc gaming and dont have a lot of money. a cheap $200-300 is a good entry point, but when you have to spend twice that, it gets a lot harder.

Also, the cards that he gets from sponsors, he's legally not allowed to sell them, its in the contract. the ones he buys for himself, are a business expense that is used for his business, he cant sell them. and even if he could, He cant fix the supply shortage by himself.

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 at least offer the common sense recommendation that cards can be obtained near MSRP or even MSRP by just signing up for auto restocking notifications via email whether at large retailers or directly with the manufacture. 

no he cant. prices vary wildly depending on where you are, whether your buying in a box store or online, what state you're in, what country you're in, whether you're buying used or not.  you need to be doing this research yourself if you're going to purchase something.

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 No I don't care about the "community", this is a capitalistic society and if I can make money due to supply and demand why not?  I don't think me taking a very limited stock effects the gaming community to a wide degree and people who think otherwise are just bitter they can't get cards or get them at the price they deem worthy. 

you arent allowed to bitch about somebody else not being part of the solution, when you are directly a part of the problem.

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So where do you all stand on what is going on?  Has this stopped anyone from buying a gpu or has it pushed you to wait until Volta?

it sucks, but it doesnt affect me or people close to me. i got my 1080 for free a few months ago, when i did, i traded cards around between all my friends so they all got at least a small upgrade as well.  and i have no intention of upgrading for a few years

[Kryten2x4z]

On 1/19/2018 at 7:51 AM, Jrasero said:

Whether you mine or game it is  crazy time to try to obtain a graphics card, but also a profitable time to sell your pre-owned 

 

I recently watched JayzTwoCents little rant about mining and GPU pricing

and while I watch all his videos and like the content he produces, God is he barking up the wrong tree.  For one this is a guy who has enough parts to startup his own Best Buy and regularly gets free parts from vendors, so price gauging wise and availability this guy is not effected.  Seconds he clearly comes off despising mining, which is his own personal belief but this is the dude that makes thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars off YouTube and his 1.3 million subscribers, so where do we draw this philosophical line on what profession is more moral?  Sorry but that sounds like a professional sports player complaining how much sports equipment costs.  Then he brings up the fact that he feels that mining may be hurting PC gaming numbers, but provides Steam statistics that contradict this.  Overall he talks about being part of the "gaming" community and how the small guys who want that $200 card now have to pay $600, yet offers no solution and makes it known he will never sell a user one of his own GPUs at cost.  What a nice guy.  A guy that has so much pull I think he could do small give a ways or at least offer the common sense recommendation that cards can be obtained near MSRP or even MSRP by just signing up for auto restocking notifications via email whether at large retailers or directly with the manufacture.  

 

As per my experience with finding cards.  Two weeks ago it was hard, like I couldn't find anything and a GTX 1080 Ti used or even when in stock was $1200+.  Stock today comes and goes daily through major sites and in places like Newegg price gauging is still very real.  I have signed up for countless auto notifications for stock and initially bought 6 cards but now have cancelled all but 1.  The reason why is, I got the card I always wanted for MSRP and unloading 5 cards isn't as easy as it sounds.  No I don't care about the "community", this is a capitalistic society and if I can make money due to supply and demand why not?  I don't think me taking a very limited stock effects the gaming community to a wide degree and people who think otherwise are just bitter they can't get cards or get them at the price they deem worthy.  The reason I have chosen to not resell is based on hassle.  Ebay which can get some of the highest resells has some of the highest fees.  Ebay fee, Paypal fee, and shipping fees and the hassle that Ebay greatly favors the buyer in terms of security but that is a whole other post.  Then there are Craigslist and local sales which have the benefit of cash payouts, but have a lower pool of buyers and I have found these people usually provide low ball offers and meeting is usually a hassle.  Also you still run the risk of some kind of scam on a local meetup and some of these people are just freaks.  

 

So where do you all stand on what is going on?  Has this stopped anyone from buying a gpu or has it pushed you to wait until Volta?

Look I'm a gamer here, I work in an industry where I need to have an upgraded GPU every few years.  I work on CAD projects, as well as some premiere video editing and photo editing and I also am a gamer.  I am still running my EVGA 970 gtx....but my main concern with this market price gouging.  I want to get a new GPU....but there is no way I could even afford it.  Not with any retailer.  Nvidia was too late to tell retailers to stop selling you crypto miners. 

 

My local frys now has a policy that in where if you want a GPU its one per person. If you are trying to buy two, then you have to buy the insurance for both cards.  Which really makes a person really rethink what they want.  There also have been cases of people just stealing the cards off the shelf and most likely for either mining rigs or cuz they can't afford the exuberant prices that have fallen upon the general populous.

 

While you yourself aren't much of an effect....you have the same mentality of nearly every college student, or person who happens to have a stockpile of older GPUs who are like oh i can make some money.  Since their initial ROI has been literally regained pretty quickly then then spend the money buying newer gpus which then will slowly over time cause the shortage we are seeing now.

 

Also also building a volta cards strictly for mining reasons, companies already have made units only for crypto mining....but their return rate is slow and will not give the person the the satisfaction of money fast enough like how a a current gen GPU would.
 

Nvidia said prioritize gamers....we aren't going to be....we are getting screwed out of being able to build a PC, to the point (and it hurts me to say it) purchase a pre-built system.  Unless within 6 month or so this bubble bursts.  We aren't gonna be able to build our own pcs for a while.

 

And just another side story.  I chatted with newegg support today.  When I asked them what am I to do if my current GPU were to die.  They told me that the manufacturer should be able to repair it.  If it costs me 200 bucks to repair my card....then my pc just became a giant paper weight.  why spend half of what I paid to repair it when i should be able to replace it with a newer market card???

 

I think i've said enough for now, but one final though....don't be a jerk about how Jay is not part of the community.  He is a normal person like anyone else.  He was able to make it into youtube.  It is a hard market to be able to do that.  He is looking from a normal person's perspective.  And I would like to hear what your solution would be...not others, yours!

[System Error Message]

On 20/01/2018 at 1:15 AM, Jrasero said:

I live in NY to and if you are just looking at local retailers you are probably doing it wrong.  I still think you can score a MSRP card like Mick Naughty and I have be preaching, if you just go to every website and signup for auto notifications.  I think ram is almost a worse problem since there is stock but sale prices are up 50%.  I just paid $200 for 16GB ram when it initially was priced at $100 or so.

 

The problem is that Jay constantly says he's part of the 'community" so yeah essentially he wants to be like "us" but lives in this bubble of mostly not being effected yet "caring" how a person who can't afford a $200 card feels.  The dude has every imaginable card possible.  Cry me a river dude

 

My point is Jay is blessed to have 1.3 million followers and be able to monetize off something that is mostly a hobby for most people, so my argument is why the hate for mining when this is putting food on people's tables.  It be me like saying why should this guy get free stuff and I don't? And why does he get to make videos all day and make hundreds of thousand of dollars while sit at a desk wondering when I get to retire and be on my third wife?  People are just bitter and frustrated and maybe that's okay but who cares people are just trying to make a living, let them be.

 

I am not saying he has enough inventory to help the industry, but my point is he makes his soap box of a video with no suggestions on how to get a card or any real clear train of thought.    

 

For me buying GPUs that I don't need, selling above MSRP, mining, or whatever is like not recycling.  yeah it's bad  but where do we draw the line between the difference between 1 can not recycled and person who buys sty-foam everything and throws his trash into the ocean.  I consider myself on the low side of the problem 

 

I guess my point is there is a real disconnect between him and I.  His worries are a bit overstated and IMO a bit of click bate 

but he has made tonnes of videos that help others. he deserves the monetisation, what about you? what have you done for humanity?

[miagisan]

6 hours ago, System Error Message said:

but he has made tonnes of videos that help others. he deserves the monetisation, what about you? what have you done for humanity?

He uses electricity to mine virtual currency. Duh. 

[Jrasero]

9 minutes ago, miagisan said:

He uses electricity to mine virtual currency. Duh. 

I actually don't mine, but I have no qualms over anyone who does.  Morally I have no objections to anyone trying to make a dollar as long as it isn't psychically or systematically hurting anyone.  I know this sounds odd but there is more to life than gaming or computers and a life can be defined more than making YouTube videos.  I could say how I used to teach or recently did relief work in Houston, but nah that doesn't matter for humanity right?  GPU prices just matter but at the end of the day as long as the prices don't put you out of work we are talking about a niche problem in a macro sense.  Just some perspective since you wanted to start throwing some shots

[pas008]

On 1/19/2018 at 10:45 AM, Mick Naughty said:

Prices are the same if you know how to use the internet. Just may have to wait a week. Stock just got 30 more cards today, could easily go get one for regular price. Just something for people to complain about I guess. 

 

On 1/19/2018 at 5:30 PM, Colty said:

I think it's a little blown out of proportion. You can find MSRP cards (just watch /r/buildapcsales) and you can find GTX 980Ti's for $300-350 on craigslist and $400 on ebay. That performs about as well as the 1070. And is still super profitable for mining. I picked one up just a week ago and it's been great for miming and gaming. I've also found GTX 1060 3GB cards for cheap, which you can still mine with if you want to put a bit of money in your pocket. Even the drastically underrated GTX 950 and GTX 960 can be found for a good deal. I grabbed a 950 for $60 just for mining and resale. That card makes a dollar a day, two months later and it's a free card that does great for 1080p 60Hz. I think that 10 series cards are greatly hurt by this, but if you just look at 900 series, there are a lot available if you're just gaming. 

 

I honestly find it silly that miners don't try to pickup 900 series cards on the cheap. I know the 900 series cards have still gone up in price since the mining craze, but not as drastically and they're still very profitable. 

agreed

been to bestbuy many times recently (yes bestbuy they price match just have to pay taxes)and there were few 1070 1080 570 sitting there at near msrp I thought of grabbing them all and reselling to make extra cash but dont care on the hassle

I have found many cards online using nowinstock.net

if you really wanted a card you would get one and you should know many sites get replenished weekly

 

I dont hate miners plain dumb hating some fad that is most likely going to pay for next 2 gens of r and d for both companies

oh well some users have to skip a yr,

usually your gpu is the fastest degrading component in your system for value, mining actually raised the bar and made many go up

trust me I have spend shit load of money on gpus

gtx670s pissed me off on how fast they were worth shit even 4gb version

gtx8800 are another

 

[Kryten2x4z]

7 minutes ago, Jrasero said:

I actually don't mine, but I have no qualms over anyone who does.  Morally I have no objections to anyone trying to make a dollar as long as it isn't psychically or systematically hurting anyone.  I know this sounds odd but there is more to life than gaming or computers and a life can be defined more than making YouTube videos.  I could say how I used to teach or recently did relief work in Houston, but nah that doesn't matter for humanity right?  GPU prices just matter but at the end of the day as long as the prices don't put you out of work we are talking about a niche problem in a macro sense.  Just some perspective since you wanted to start throwing some shots

Of course there is more to life than gaming but the fact that there are some ppl who's job is gaming...(let's plays, game reviewers and testers) they have to spend more money will affect their bottom line revenue. 

 

Also some building your own PC is supposed to be a right of passing for ppl. To learn and know how to build. I know I appreciated it with the 4 builds I've done in the last 6 years.

 

 

[miagisan]

28 minutes ago, Jrasero said:

I actually don't mine, but I have no qualms over anyone who does.  Morally I have no objections to anyone trying to make a dollar as long as it isn't psychically or systematically hurting anyone.  I know this sounds odd but there is more to life than gaming or computers and a life can be defined more than making YouTube videos.  I could say how I used to teach or recently did relief work in Houston, but nah that doesn't matter for humanity right?  GPU prices just matter but at the end of the day as long as the prices don't put you out of work we are talking about a niche problem in a macro sense.  Just some perspective since you wanted to start throwing some shots

I wasn't aiming at it you per say, but miners in general. This whole crypto currency, to me, is a waste of resources. The amount of power being used to mine virtual currency is such a waste.

 

It annoys me that it's as popular as it is. It's people jumping on a free money fad rather than working or providing a service to earn in (yes I am a grumpy old man). 

 

Some people need video cards for work and research, outside of gaming and mining. But these inflated pricing can break alot of smaller companies budgets.  

[Jrasero]

7 minutes ago, miagisan said:

I wasn't aiming at it you per say, but miners in general. This whole crypto currency, to me, is a waste of resources. The amount of power being used to mine virtual currency is such a waste.

 

It annoys me that it's as popular as it is. It's people jumping on a free money fad rather than working or providing a service to earn in (yes I am a grumpy old man). 

 

Some people need video cards for work and research, outside of gaming and mining. But these inflated pricing can break alot of smaller companies budgets.  

I understand this, but I personal know people who mine or sold cards to miners and trust me it isn't free* money, why do you think ROI is always mentioned.  Some people have put thousands if not hundreds of thousands into setups.  You seem to want to make this a generational thing but it really isn't.  People have always jumped at opportunity gold, oil, ect.  

 

A lot of people say anyone can mine.  Can they?  My litmus test, is could my parents do it?  I know this is a totally different subject but on the side I would call myself almost a professional daily fantasy sport player and in NY it was banned not so long ago.  My my personal reason  for why DFS was not gambling is that is was a game of skill that not everyone could do.  You give my mom $1000 vs me I will beat here in a H2H entry in any sport in DFS.  I feel the same way about any business as well.  You give someone a $10,000 credit line to start mining, not everyone will be able to do it or even be profitable.  Just because it's all the rage and everyone is doing it, doesn't mean they are doing it right.  

 

So yeah it sucks this effects gaming, professionals, and anyone who requires a GPU but philosophically drawing a line on what constitutes morally deeming work is stupid.   

[miagisan]

10 minutes ago, Jrasero said:

I understand this, but I personal know people who mine or sold cards to miners and trust me it isn't free* money, why do you think ROI is always mentioned.  Some people have put thousands if not hundreds of thousands into setups.  You seem to want to make this a generational thing but it really isn't.  People have always jumped at opportunity gold, oil, ect.  

 

A lot of people say anyone can mine.  Can they?  My litmus test, is could my parents do it?  I know this is a totally different subject but on the side I would call myself almost a professional daily fantasy sport player and in NY it was banned not so long ago.  My my personal reason  for why DFS was not gambling is that is was a game of skill that not everyone could do.  You give my mom $1000 vs me I will beat here in a H2H entry in any sport in DFS.  I feel the same way about any business as well.  You give someone a $10,000 credit line to start mining, not everyone will be able to do it or even be profitable.  Just because it's all the rage and everyone is doing it, doesn't mean they are doing it right.  

 

So yeah it sucks this effects gaming, professionals, and anyone who requires a GPU but philosophically drawing a line on what constitutes morally deeming work is stupid.   

I didn't say morally deeming. I said it's a waste. It burns a shit ton of electricity for doing calculations for the sake of doing calculations. 

 

Now, if say it was tied to something beneficial (protein folding, physics calculations, astronomical purposes, math, finance, simulation,  whatever) and getting paid,  I would have absolutely NO problem with it. You are providing a service and getting paid. 

 

The fact that mining burns more electricity than most small countries on wasted calculations, all to get a piece of the free money pie fad. 

[Mick Naughty]

I use my main gaming rig to mine. Cant use it to enjoy playing anymore so might as well get free money. Back when I could get countless 1080's for 350 bucks.