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Steve Burke (Gamer Nexus) explanes the lack of mini itx AM4 motherboards

Steven H

In a short overview video of the MSI B350I Pro AC board by Gamer Nexus, Steve briefly mentioned why there is a lack of mini ITX Ryzen boards at launch, and why there are limited models available. He said that after speaking to several motherboard vendors, he is informed that Ryzen boards requires an additional layer of the PCB to the motherboard design when converting them to MINI ITX. It is not a problem to Intel boards. He mentioned it starting at the 2:05 mark of the video:

 

 

To be fair, this is a valid reason. (Not some kind of "Intel paid the motherboard vendors to sandbag AMD" BS suggestted by some AMD FANBOYS) However it still raises some questions (to me):

1 - Why the motherboard venders choose to use the ATX chipset (X370/B350), instead of the X/A300 chipset specifically designed for this?

2 - Why they still choose to use the X370 chipset in MINI ITX when most of their boards are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to their B350 counterparts? (even with the same power delivery, same ascetics and same IO?)

 

Discussions are appreciated

 

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2 minutes ago, Steven H said:

2 - Why they still choose to use the X370 chipset when most of their boards are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to their B350 counterparts? (even with the same power delivery, same ascetics and same IO?)

X370 supports SLI whereas B350 does not. That's the most important, the other differences are a bit more PCIe Gen2 lanes / SATA connections. I think SLI is important enough that motherboard vendors want to keep selling X370 motherboards.

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9 minutes ago, Energycore said:

X370 supports SLI whereas B350 does not. That's the most important, the other differences are a bit more PCIe Gen2 lanes / SATA connections. I think SLI is important enough that motherboard vendors want to keep selling X370 motherboards.

I think he's talking about ITX boards, where SLI wouldn't matter.

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15 minutes ago, Steven H said:

1 - Why the motherboard venders choose to use the ATX chipset (X370/B350), instead of the X/A300 chipset specifically designed for this?

Both of those feel anemic with the amount of I/O you can have. Only two SATA and 4 USB 3.0 ports (technically 3.1 Gen 1). I need more USB ports than that. And while I only use two SATA ports, my case can support 5 drives total (four without the 2.5" bracket I bought).

15 minutes ago, Steven H said:

2 - Why they still choose to use the X370 chipset when most of their boards are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to their B350 counterparts? (even with the same power delivery, same ascetics and same IO?)

According to Wikipedia since it has a chart and I'm too lazy to use Google, the X370 and B350 have different amounts of I/O.

 

And to answer both questions, it could just be a "need to use up available stock" issue.

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2 minutes ago, JDE said:

I think he's talking about ITX boards, where SLI wouldn't matter.

I don't think he is, because of this claim which refers to the same motherboards with different chipsets, which happens a lot on mATX and ATX models.

19 minutes ago, Steven H said:

(even with the same power delivery, same ascetics and same IO?)

And because I don't think there is an X370 motherboard yet available. All B350

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4 minutes ago, JDE said:

I think he's talking about ITX boards, where SLI wouldn't matter.

There's bifurcation if you want to go down that road.

 

Not like most mainstream platforms would actually have it tho. A TR4 board would if they exist. Also would still need certification I think.

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2 minutes ago, Energycore said:

I don't think he is, because of this claim which refers to the same motherboards with different chipsets, which happens a lot on mATX and ATX models.

No I'm strictly refering to mini-ITX

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1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Both of those feel anemic with the amount of I/O you can have. Only two SATA and 4 USB 3.0 ports (technically 3.1 Gen 1). I need more USB ports than that. And while I only use two SATA ports, my case can support 5 drives total (four without the 2.5" bracket I bought).

While that is fair in some use cases, most ITX deployments are going to be in a small setup where utilizing that many drives is not possible.

As for USB ports, that will also depend on the use case. I only have three items that will permanently take up a USB port, being a keyboard, mouse and web cam. I have a USB drive taking up my final slot of my ITX board, and I still have two front I/O ports available if I need anything else.

I hope more boards start to spring up, because I'd like to upgrade to Ryzen and the lack of choice isn't ideal.

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Just now, Steven H said:

No I'm strictly refering to mini-ITX

So have you seen an X370 mITX motherboard that I'm not aware of?

 

Because right now to my eyes you're asking "why do they do X" when it's clear that they don't do X

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8 minutes ago, divito said:

While that is fair in some use cases, most ITX deployments are going to be in a small setup where utilizing that many drives is not possible.

Many of the Mini-ITX DIY market build around cases that are approaching Micro ATX territory and they have plenty of space for drives. Heck, Lian-Li had a case that basically screams "use me as a NAS box."

 

EDIT: Looking at a sample of four or so Mini-ITX cases, which are the Fractal Define Nano S, Cooler Master Elite 130, Fractal Design Node 304, and Corsair Obsidian 250D, they have at least four internal drive bays. Yeah, two SATA ports is kind of anemic.

 

EDIT 2: And yes, I found that Zen also comes with SATA ports by default, but it conflicts with NVMe.

Quote

As for USB ports, that will also depend on the use case. I only have three items that will permanently take up a USB port, being a keyboard, mouse and web cam. I have a USB drive taking up my final slot of my ITX board, and I still have two front I/O ports available if I need anything else.

The USB port count is likely considering all ports, front and back.

 

However I had a look at Zen's architecture as a refresher because something hit me and I found that Zen has at least four USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports by default.

Edited by M.Yurizaki
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1 minute ago, Energycore said:

So have you seen an X370 mITX motherboard that I'm not aware of?

image.png.f6c7b79d946ce5b4fac6c41244373b8d.png  image.png.c64c0c55c3dc50be61f93e4f24e738ff.png

 

And the funny thing is, they all have their B350 counterparts that looks virtually identical:

image.png.5781881b365c0a6557e402b4a34360af.png

image.png.cb02f5c3a0720ac87974450224d41c09.png

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Energycore said:

So have you seen an X370 mITX motherboard that I'm not aware of?

 

Because right now to my eyes you're asking "why do they do X" when it's clear that they don't do X

http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=879

Biostar X370GTN

 

http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=878

Biostar B350GTN

 

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14 minutes ago, Steven H said:

 

 

And the funny thing is, they all have their B350 counterparts that looks virtually identical:

 

 

(snipped images)

 

 

Thanks for making the effort to show these, and yeah that's just weird. Especially since X370 on mini-ITX doesn't offer much at all (maybe just bragging rights)

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33 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Many of the Mini-ITX DIY market build around cases that are approaching Micro ATX territory and they have plenty of space for drives. Heck, Lian-Li had a case that basically screams "use me as a NAS box."

 

EDIT: Looking at a sample of four or so Mini-ITX cases, which are the Fractal Define Nano S, Cooler Master Elite 130, Fractal Design Node 304, and Corsair Obsidian 250D, they have at least four internal drive bays. Yeah, two SATA ports is kind of anemic.

My previous ITX case that's just lying around is a BitFenix Prodigy which would hold 5 - 3.5" drives and 6 if I wanted to lay one one in the 5.25" bay.

Wasn't that I disagreed that it wouldn't hurt to bump the two ports to four, just that you'd have to be going for a NAS or professional-type usage for storage to be one of those use cases. There are plenty of ITX cases that can be a good all-around build (storage, space, airflow) or NAS-specific. But for all of those, there are also all the users that want a small, sleek, powerful PC.

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Just now, divito said:

Wasn't that I disagreed that it wouldn't hurt to bump the two ports to four, just that you'd have to be going for a NAS or professional-type usage for storage to be one of those use cases. There are plenty of ITX cases that can be a good all-around build (storage, space, airflow) or NAS-specific. But for all of those, there are also all the users that want a small, sleek, powerful PC.

But again, most Mini-ITX builds I've seen don't go for those. And even a sub 15L case like mine can fit 4 SATA devices.

 

And also I've seen people with multiple drives because like monitors, they'd rather build on top of what they have than replace it.

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1 minute ago, Kherm said:

Thank you tech Jesus

U should thank Steve Burke. He is the one who obtained these info

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42 minutes ago, Energycore said:

Thanks for making the effort to show these, and yeah that's just weird. Especially since X370 on mini-ITX doesn't offer much at all (maybe just bragging rights)

Bragging right is definitely the factor here as I can say I have the "top of the line" even they have the same feature as their stepped down counterparts. (BTW the x370 is significantly more expensive than the B350 variant)

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37 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

But again, most Mini-ITX builds I've seen don't go for those. And even a sub 15L case like mine can fit 4 SATA devices.

 

And also I've seen people with multiple drives because like monitors, they'd rather build on top of what they have than replace it.

I might be alone, I used to love having all my cases full of hard drives, but I slowly shrunk my PC from a full tower, to mid tower, to ITX-based cases. Along the way, I've moved to networked storage and will eventually have a NAS in my Prodigy as my almost 12TB of storage is getting quite full. 

I just wish the market was there to have SFF more on the forefront than it is, especially at places like CES, where everything seems to be dominated by full rigs with fans, RGB and liquid cooling.

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2 hours ago, Steven H said:

image.png.f6c7b79d946ce5b4fac6c41244373b8d.png  image.png.c64c0c55c3dc50be61f93e4f24e738ff.png

 

And the funny thing is, they all have their B350 counterparts that looks virtually identical:

image.png.5781881b365c0a6557e402b4a34360af.png

image.png.cb02f5c3a0720ac87974450224d41c09.png

 

 

 

I'm seeing a serious lack of right angled+stacked SATA sockets.

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3 hours ago, Energycore said:

X370 supports SLI whereas B350 does not. That's the most important, the other differences are a bit more PCIe Gen2 lanes / SATA connections. I think SLI is important enough that motherboard vendors want to keep selling X370 motherboards.

b350 supports crossfire, I dont see why it wouldnt support SLI

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Just now, RagnarokDel said:

b350 supports crossfire, I dont see why it wouldnt support SLI

SLI requires a specific chip for its own purpose that costs money (nvidia sells it) so it's mostly left out of less than high-end boards. Even some Z370 motherboards don't support it.

 

Quote

As it stands, both B350 and X370 will support AMD’s CrossFire multi-GPU technology and the X370 alone will also have support for NVIDIA’s SLI technology.

https://www.pcper.com/news/Motherboards/AMD-Supports-CrossFire-B350-and-X370-Chipsets-However-SLI-Limited-X370

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1 minute ago, Energycore said:

SLI requires a specific chip for its own purpose that costs money (nvidia sells it) so it's mostly left out of less than high-end boards. Even some Z370 motherboards don't support it.

Typical, fuck Nvidia.

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11 minutes ago, RagnarokDel said:

b350 supports crossfire, I dont see why it wouldnt support SLI

B350 isn't required to run GFX provisioned lanes in 2x8, the minimum requirement for SLI. Multiple GFX card setups wasn't the initial intention either, manufacturers and AMD agreed upon it after the fact, and an SLI chipset can't easily be drafted to B350 boards, it's actually built into the x370 chipset.

 

4 hours ago, Steven H said:

2 - Why they still choose to use the X370 chipset in MINI ITX when most of their boards are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to their B350 counterparts? (even with the same power delivery, same ascetics and same IO?)

Because X370 allows for more manufacturer addons without resorting to PLX switches, USB controllers, SATA controllers.

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From what I understand after reading the OP, this is an issue with an extra layer of PCB being needed to convert boards to ITX, but how is this related to intel or to quote the OP

 

Quote

 It is not, if ever has it been, a problem to Intel boards.

Is this a problem in Intel boards as well? or what? I literally don't understand the context with which this sentence is used and am just asking for clarification.

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