Microsoft launches ARM-powered Windows 10 laptops

[Matu20]

45 minutes ago, Being Delirious said:

Rt was a mistake because they tried to make programs into apps, which developers didn't want to do. This theoretically should be popular.

I still feel like it's bound to fail.

[Coaxialgamer]

11 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Probably somewhere around the ballpark of Intel's integrated graphics (so.... adequate if you just want 30 fps at low-ish resolution/quality, depending on the game).

theoretically , it's actually quite a bit faster. even at boost , hd 620 graphics get around 420 GFLOPs. The adreno 540 gets around 570 GLops...

[captain_to_fire]

Quote

The emulator runs in a just-in-time basis, converting blocks of x86 code to equivalent blocks of ARM code. This conversion is cached both in memory (so each given part of a program only has to be translated once per run) and on disk (so subsequent uses of the program should be faster, as they can skip the translation). Moreover, system libraries—the various DLLs that applications load to make use of operating system features—are all native ARM code, including the libraries loaded by x86 programs. Calling them "Compiled Hybrid Portable Executables" (or "chippie" for short), these libraries are ARM native. 

While processor-intensive applications are liable to suffer a significant performance hit from this emulation—Photoshop will work in the emulator, but it won't be very fast—applications that spend a substantial amount of time waiting around for the user—such as Word—should perform with adequate performance. As one might expect, this emulation isn't available in the kernel, so x86 device drivers won't work on these systems. It's also exclusively 32-bit; software that's available only in a 64-bit x86 version won't be compatible.

 

For the most part, Windows 10 on ARM should be identical to that on x86. The most notable exception is perhaps that there's no Hyper-V virtualization, and since so many of its features depend on Hyper-V, no version of Windows 10 Enterprise for ARM. And unlike Windows 10 Mobile, the full Windows 10 for ARM doesn't include a telephony stack, so you won't be able to place voice calls from your PC either. Microsoft and HP both say that they're talking to mobile network operators for pricing, data plan availability, and related issues.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/12/hp-asus-announce-first-windows-10-arm-pcs-20-hour-battery-life-gigabit-lte/ 

 

Once again, Windows 10 on ARM is a dark horse. 

[NTDaws]

4 minutes ago, Matu20 said:

I still feel like it's bound to fail.

Your reason?

[Shadestones]

Just now, djdwosk97 said:

Netbooks are great if you absolutely have to spend no money, but if you want even a half decent experience, then they're pretty awful. The keyboards and trackpads were garbage, the screen looked terrible, and they were a laggy stuttery mess. Chromebooks are the new netbooks and are far better other than being more limited in what they can run -- not that netbooks could actually run much more, they could just technically run more. 

My laptop, which is not a netbook, cost 300-400 dollars new. It has a terrible screen, poor battery life, awful keyboard... this sounds like it qualifies as a netbook.

 

But it's 15", so it's not small by any means.

 

Chromebooks sound appealing, but I'm screwed if I need to use any application that isn't web-based. These new windows laptops (2-in-1's?) might be a real contender among Chromebooks, but they absolutely need to have the option of full windows instead of the locked-down app store simulator known as Windows 10 S.

[vanished]

I thought they had learned their lesson with the first ones...

[captain_to_fire]

41 minutes ago, tjcater said:

Can't wait to see more tests on W10A to see how well the emulation layer works. Would be interesting to see how well these compete with Y/U series processors as that seems to be the price range the released laptops are in.

As per the Ars Technica article: 

• The x86 emulator is a 32-bit so 64 bit applications won’t be able to run even though W10A is 64-bit
• No Hyper- V

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

As per the Ars Technica article: 

• The x86 emulator is a 32-bit so 64 bit applications won’t be able to run even though W10A is 64-bit
• No Hyper-V
•  

I was leaning more on how well the x86 code will run in a production environment. I do think I remember hearing that there was a possibility for x64 support to come in the future.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Guest
Less more

[captain_to_fire]

3 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I thought they had learned their lesson with the first ones...

I wouldn’t be so surprised if in a few years Microsoft will resurrect Windows Phone. 

[LAwLz]

@goodtofufriday

Well I think that's debatable.

This shares a lot of big similarities with RT, so I don't think the cry for a mod to change the title is justified.

Other than the limitations being very similar, they also share a similar purpose. That purpose being to try and force people to use the store in order to slowly turn Windows into a more controlled and locked down platform similar to iOS (and to some extent MacOS).

 

People will hear that this laptop can run all their normal programs, then they will run into issues as soon as they try to run "Firefox Installer.exe".

 

9 minutes ago, Coaxialgamer said:

theoretically , it's actually quite a bit faster. even at boost , hd 620 graphics get around 420 GFLOPs. The adreno 540 gets around 570 GLops...

FLOPS is a terrible way of comparing performance.

I mean, the 580 is only ~4.5% behind the GTX 1070 in FLOPS, and I don't think anyone buys that they are that close performance wise for other tasks.

 

 

2 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

As per the Ars Technica article: 

• The x86 emulator is a 32-bit so 64 bit applications won’t be able to run even though W10A is 64-bit
• No Hyper-V
•  

I don't think the lack of Hyper-V is a big issue. These laptops will be really slow compared to "proper" laptops, so running VMs would be a pretty terrible experience if it worked.

[Drak3]

Now with audio!

 

[Drak3]

6 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

No Hyper- V

Well then it's just not worth it. Scrap the entire project. We've failed.

 

 

 

 

 

Kappa.

[captain_to_fire]

3 minutes ago, tjcater said:

I was more leaning more on how well the x86 code will run in a production environment. I do think I remember hearing that there was a possibility for x64 support to come in the future.

One problem I can see users will encounter is app compatibility. Remember that most PC users are using third party browsers like Chrome or Firefox. The x86 emulator will cripple the performance of those browsers as they’re not running natively so users of these W10A PCs are forced to use Microsoft Edge which is a UWP app. 

 

How cutthroat of Microsoft ?

[Coaxialgamer]

Just now, LAwLz said:

 

FLOPS is a terrible way of comparing performance.

I mean, the 580 is only ~4.5% behind the GTX 1070 in FLOPS, and I don't think anyone buys that they are that close performance wise for other tasks.

 

 

I know it is , it only gives you floating point perf . Pascal  wins to gcn because it has higher fillrate and can actually be fed due to a proper ROP configuration . Flops only give you peak theoretical performance , and don't account for internal bottlenecks .

 

That said:

-Intel uses what can be at best described as anemic shaders . they aren't pulling any architectural tricks to fill that gap .

-Qualcomm is the current leader in mobile gpu tech . I'm pretty sure they've managed to keep internal bottlenecks to a minimum . Especially when considering that this is mobile tech , we can assume that shader utilisation is pretty high .

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

One problem I can see users will encounter is app compatibility. Remember that most PC users are using third party browsers like Chrome or Firefox. The x86 emulator will cripple the performance of those browsers as they’re not running natively so users of these W10A PCs are forced to use Microsoft Edge which is a UWP app. 

 

How cutthroat of Microsoft ?

Next thing we'll probably see is Microsoft blaming the developers for not compiling to ARM or making bad apps, throwing the issue under the rug.

2 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

I wouldn't count on that. Microsoft is not afraid of abandoning products, even when they're successful.

Guess we will have to wait and see. (You do raise a good point on their track record though )

[Bananasplit_00]

1 hour ago, RorzNZ said:

Seems like a cool idea, but really why not just use Atom or those smaller celerons and have done with it.

Intel don't make atoms anymore as far as I know

59 minutes ago, Kherm said:

Have you ever used a netbook? Those things SUCKED, and battery life was garbage. With these Snapdragon PCs, standby time will be weeks, and the screen will be instantly on, just like a phone.

Huh? My 10.1" first generation atom laptop had better battery life than my current 15.6", standby time was about a week and I could go two days without a charge, writing stuff at school all day. 

 

30 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Said no one ever. 

Said me, who actually enjoy laptops that you can carry... 

 

27 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Netbooks are great if you absolutely have to spend no money, but if you want even a half decent experience, then they're pretty awful. The keyboards and trackpads were garbage, the screen looked terrible, and they were a laggy stuttery mess due to a combination of slow HDDs, weak CPUs, and little RAM. Chromebooks are the new netbooks and are far better other than being more limited in what they can run -- not that netbooks could actually run much more, they could just technically run more. 

Keyboard on mine was pretty good, track pad definitely acceptable and the 736p screen looked pretty decent as well. Mine was running Windows 10, and yes it was not great. Browsing the web wasn't great but it was a fine document wrighter and played back video from a local source just fine at 720p. Chrome books do all that better, yes, but netbooks did it fine seeing as they exist way before with shittier hardware. 

 

 

For reference the laptop I had was an ASUS EEE PC 1080(that name is ironic as hell) 

[Matu20]

24 minutes ago, Being Delirious said:

Your reason?

People probably will not adopt it since it isn't the full fledged x86 as they see it inferior.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Bananasplit_00 said:

Intel don't make atoms anymore as far as I know

They discontinued the consumer product line, but I believe the architectural family is still alive for this generation of Xeon Phi, and probably will remain alive for industrial embedded solutions.

[Bananasplit_00]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

They discontinued the consumer product line, but I believe the architectural family is still alive for this generation of Xeon Phi, and probably will remain alive for industrial embedded solutions.

I cried a small tear when they announced it tbh, I really liked them. Atoms became really capable chips tbh

[captain_to_fire]

5 minutes ago, tjcater said:

Next thing we'll probably see is Microsoft blaming the developers for not compiling to ARM or making bad apps, throwing the issue under the rug.

I don’t see it happening anytime soon but who knows? Spotify at the moment is available to the Windows Store but it’s still x86 app and not UWP. Since W10A and regular Windows 10 looks exactly the same, I think this will create confusion among buyers just like when people got confused between Windows 8 and Windows RT. 

 

So Microsoft and other PC OEMs better not price these ARM powered laptops $1000 or higher if they want to take a jab on Apple’s iPad and Google’s Chromebooks. 

[Drak3]

Just now, Bananasplit_00 said:

I cried a small tear when they announced it tbh, I really liked them. Atoms became really capable chips tbh

Honestly, I'm glad that they're dead on the consumer side. What we were given wasn't adequate.

 

1 minute ago, hey_yo_ said:

So Microsoft and other PC OEMs better not price these ARM powered laptops $1000 or higher if they want to take a jab on Apple’s iPad and Google’s Chromebooks. 

RIP W10A

[Polesh007]

1 hour ago, Princess Cadence said:

A device running Windows 10 on a Computing Processing Unit that isn't Intel or AMD? What world do we live in!?

Can't wait for the Snapdragon fanboys

[thorhammerz]

38 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I thought they had learned their lesson with the first ones...

As long as the market still exists: even if the execution gets botched a few times, it is still worth the attempt at securing a slice of the pie so long as the opportunity cost for doing so is reasonable & the company isn't betting their survival on the success of the venture (and let's be honest here: Microsoft has fairly deep pockets to the tune of $139~ billion in liquid assets... they're not going broke over a failed side experiment here and there).

 

It's not like they're starting from scratch, using the IP from their past R&D (although this could very well be a negative point as well if the fundamentals are bad).

[vanished]

Just now, thorhammerz said:

As long as the market still exists: even if the execution gets botched a few times, it is still worth the attempt at securing a slice of the pie so long as the opportunity cost for doing so is reasonable & the company isn't betting their survival on the success of the venture (and let's be honest here: Microsoft has fairly deep pockets to the tune of $130+ billion in liquid assets).

 

It's not like they're starting from scratch, using the IP from their past R&D (although this could very well be a negative point as well if the fundamentals are bad).

My point is I don't think the market does exist

[Guest lilbman]

1 hour ago, Coaxialgamer said:

I'm more interested by the performance of the adreno gpu in games . Cpu emulation will hurt performance , but i'm curious how far the gpu gets you.

I'd imagine even something like Cuphead would push it to the limit.