i3 8350K Coffee Lake on a Z170 Motherboard

[Zyndo]

15 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

is a bit of a stretch.

 

 

it is; but to be fair, if some random dudes can get it even semi-functional, it really brings into question the validity of Intel's claims towards its being completely incompatible. Intel, or any of the board partners, with all their inside knowledge and extremely low-level product information/workings.... they should have no issues making a perfectly functional version of this same stuff.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Zyndo said:

it is; but to be fair, if some random dudes can get it even semi-functional, it really brings into question the validity of Intel's claims towards its being completely incompatible. Intel, or any of the board partners, with all their inside knowledge and extremely low-level product information/workings.... they should have no issues making a perfectly functional version of this same stuff.

Intel never said it was completely incompatible, they said due to power issues it won't run.  This indicates Intel could have made it work, but from what has been posted it is likely that that would have been at the expense of burnt out boards/CPU's as not every z series has sufficient power circuits to maintain stability.  It's my guess this is why the iGPU and x16 aren't functioning.

[Morgan MLGman]

A repost thread merged with the original one

[asus killer]

difficult not to hate Intel. Disgusting 

 

Do they make that much money on the chipsets that this all mess is worth it?

[thorhammerz]

20 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Do they make that much money on the chipsets that this all mess is worth it?

Not particularly; the royalty they collect is probably around or under $10-50 / board if decade-old numbers are anything to go by (important to differentiate the materials cost of the parts vs the licensing/royalty fee Intel collects).

 

If anything, removing backwards compatibility it's to shut the door on having to deal with any potential problems (with regards to power deliver on low-end z270 boards) for the hex-core chips: a single failed combination would reflect badly (and incur potential unknown costs, up to and including a possible class-action lawsuit) on themselves for officially supporting the older chipset.

 

Damned if they do (see above, costs are potentially unknown), damned if they don't (they are now hated by a small minority of consumers who would buy a processors more than once every 4 years, cost of doing this is can be predicted). Not a very hard choice to make.

[asus killer]

2 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Not particularly; the royalty they collect is probably around or under $10-50 / board if decade-old numbers are anything to go by (important to differentiate the materials cost of the parts vs the licensing/royalty fee Intel collects).

 

If anything, removing backwards compatibility it's to shut the door on having to deal with any potential problems (with regards to power deliver on low-end z270 boards) for the hex-core chips: a single failed combination would reflect badly (and incur potential unknown costs, up to and including a possible class-action lawsuit) on themselves for officially supporting the older chipset.

 

Damned if they do (see above), damned if they don't (they are now hated by a small minority of consumers who would buy a processors more than once every 4 years). Not a very hard choice to make.

the jump from 7th to 8th gen is that much taxing?

 

they could always let consumers decide for themselves to take the risk, for i3's and i5's at least it is no risk at all.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, asus killer said:

the jump from 7th to 8th gen is that much taxing?

 

they could always let consumers decide for themselves to take the risk, for i3's and i5's at least it is no risk at all.

 

They would let consumers decide for themselves, but consumers are notoriously selfish and would lie about their motherboard to claim any damage back on warranty.

[thorhammerz]

2 minutes ago, asus killer said:

they could always let consumers decide for themselves to take the risk, for i3's and i5's at least it is no risk at all.

 

Just now, mr moose said:

 

They would let consumers decide for themselves, but consumers are notoriously selfish and would lie about their motherboard to claim any damage back on warranty.

^.

 

RMA's are very expensive to process. And if one wants Intel to release a QVL on which motherboards would work with an i3 or an i5.... a cursor consideration into the time & costs of doing so quickly rules it out as a viable option (return for investment).

 

It is just much simpler to disable backwards compatibility, with a known cost of doing so.

[asus killer]

 

4 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

 

^.

 

RMA's are very expensive to process. And if one wants Intel to release a QVL on which motherboards would work with an i3 or an i5.... a cursor consideration into the time & costs of doing so quickly rules it out as a viable option (return for investment).

 

It is just much simpler to disable backwards compatibility, with a known cost of doing so.

it will be funny to see AMD increasing core clock and/or cores and threads and still be on AM4 until 2020.

[thorhammerz]

26 minutes ago, asus killer said:

 

it will be funny to see AMD increasing core clock and/or cores and threads and still be on AM4 until 2020.

Which is possible because AMD specifically designed their socket & chipset to support these features (e.g. engineering a power delivery mechanism that is sufficient for what they predict their chips might use in 5 years from now). Intel has chosen not do so.

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, asus killer said:

 

it will be funny to see AMD increasing core clock and/or cores and threads and still be on AM4 until 2020.

For me it will be expected to see, there is no doubt about that,  AMD have had the longest runs with platforms (longest realistic usable platform run from them I believe was 6 years).    However like all companies that deal with PC technologies, they can't always balance the latest and greatest with compatibility.   So it would not be an unreasonable assumption that anyone with an AM4 motherboard today might not have complete compatability with future technologies (be it ram or new interfaces) by 2020.  

[asus killer]

42 minutes ago, mr moose said:

For me it will be expected to see, there is no doubt about that,  AMD have had the longest runs with platforms (longest realistic usable platform run from them I believe was 6 years).    However like all companies that deal with PC technologies, they can't always balance the latest and greatest with compatibility.   So it would not be an unreasonable assumption that anyone with an AM4 motherboard today might not have complete compatability with future technologies (be it ram or new interfaces) by 2020.  

yes it can possibly be a AM4+ with more features, but as long as compatibility is assured it's a good move for everyone. You decide if you are willing to live without it or not.

[mr moose]

13 minutes ago, asus killer said:

yes it can possibly be a AM4+ with more features, but as long as compatibility is assured it's a good move for everyone. You decide if you are willing to live without it or not.

 

Back when AMD had the AM2, 2+, 3 and 3+, yes there was compatibility almost guaranteed for the processor, but depending on which mobo you had, you didn't get SMT or you were stuck with an older version, you might have been restricted to ddr2 instead of being able to jump to ddr3 and so on.    Many people did not do a simple CPU upgrade because the cost of a new CPU when hamstrung like that wasn't really worthwhile.     And this was in a time when upgrade cycles where needed more frequently than they are today.

 

As much as it would be awesome to have sockets and CPU's compatible for longer periods, the complexity of each iteration and model is such that backwards compatibility becomes costly.  If we look at the way things are going, today's CPU/mobo combinations (from either team) look like they will still be acceptable performers in 5 years time with very little upgrades.  

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Back when AMD had the AM2, 2+, 3 and 3+, yes there was compatibility almost guaranteed for the processor, but depending on which mobo you had, you didn't get SMT or you were stuck with an older version, you might have been restricted to ddr2 instead of being able to jump to ddr3 and so on.

And you may have needed an older CPU to boot the system to upgrade the firmware to support the newer CPU depending on motherboard, some could do firmware upgrades from USB without CPU installed but that was only on the most expensive boards.

[Arika]

Conspiracy theory:

 

What if intel didn't stagnant the processor market so they could make more money, and isn't anti consumer / anti competition? But they were simply waiting for AMD to make something competitive again so they could stop people from claiming they were running a monopoly? why else would they have something ready to go (coffee lake) so soon after Ryzen was announced

 

feel free to discuss and be triggered. have fun.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

Conspiracy theory:

 

What if intel didn't stagnant the processor market so they could make more money, and isn't anti consumer / anti competition? But they were simply waiting for AMD to make something competitive again so they could stop people from claiming they were running a monopoly? why else would they have something ready to go (coffee lake) so soon after Ryzen was announced

 

feel free to discuss and be triggered. have fun.

 

I think it's safe to say that with the way everything panned out with X299 and the 200 series and CL power management etc etc etc, that Intel weren't that far in front with their product development.  Which clearly indicates they weren't sandbagging/stagnating on purpose.   I personally think had they been holding back products then they would have had a much better implemented response to TR and Ryzen. 

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

be triggered

AHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh !#%#!^&*($#!@ .

 

17 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

What if intel didn't stagnant the processor market so they could make more money, and isn't anti consumer / anti competition? But they were simply waiting for AMD to make something competitive again so they could stop people from claiming they were running a monopoly? why else would they have something ready to go (coffee lake) so soon after Ryzen was announced

Holding back something you have because of lack of competition is still anti-consumer though, we can argue though that it does benefit the competition's ability to be able to compete by having a lower bar to reach.

 

Personally I didn't mind the mainstream chipset being rather limited but I did feel 6 cores should have been released 2 ish years ago. What was much less reasonable was the HEDT platform being limited so heavily, especially back when it was actually using Xeon dies and compatible chipsets.

[asus killer]

38 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Back when AMD had the AM2, 2+, 3 and 3+, yes there was compatibility almost guaranteed for the processor, but depending on which mobo you had, you didn't get SMT or you were stuck with an older version, you might have been restricted to ddr2 instead of being able to jump to ddr3 and so on.    Many people did not do a simple CPU upgrade because the cost of a new CPU when hamstrung like that wasn't really worthwhile.     And this was in a time when upgrade cycles where needed more frequently than they are today.

 

As much as it would be awesome to have sockets and CPU's compatible for longer periods, the complexity of each iteration and model is such that backwards compatibility becomes costly.  If we look at the way things are going, today's CPU/mobo combinations (from either team) look like they will still be acceptable performers in 5 years time with very little upgrades.  

think of it this way, you could today buy a new generation CPU (and use it and get better performance) and in 6 months buy a new generation motherboard. Again you get choices as a consumer, better then some corporate overloads deciding for yourself what you should do and when with your money. Some CPU+Motherboard combos are really expensive.

 

[pas008]

7 hours ago, leadeater said:

AHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh !#%#!^&*($#!@ .

 

Holding back something you have because of lack of competition is still anti-consumer though, we can argue though that it does benefit the competition's ability to be able to compete by having a lower bar to reach.

 

Personally I didn't mind the mainstream chipset being rather limited but I did feel 6 cores should have been released 2 ish years ago. What was much less reasonable was the HEDT platform being limited so heavily, especially back when it was actually using Xeon dies and compatible chipsets.

if they released 6/8 core on mainstream 2yrs ago ryzen would be nothing pretty much and would prolly give them enough marketplace to be considered a monopoly especially in eu

with that comes forced pricing

[pas008]

7 hours ago, asus killer said:

think of it this way, you could today buy a new generation CPU (and use it and get better performance) and in 6 months buy a new generation motherboard. Again you get choices as a consumer, better then some corporate overloads deciding for yourself what you should do and when with your money. Some CPU+Motherboard combos are really expensive.

 

you do have many choices as a consumer

and what you want to buy with your money

 

if you were on z170 or z270 and wanting to go to 6core now but want to use your mobo is kinda dumb

almost every one knows intels history with cycles of products and compatibility for them

 

sounds like the small group of whiners here are just as greedy as intel, wants new but doesnt want to spend

[Nicnac]

I'd be willing to try such a mod once they can make the pcie slot work for a graphics card.

[ARikozuM]

9 hours ago, Sierra Fox said:

Conspiracy theory:

 

What if intel didn't stagnant the processor market so they could make more money, and isn't anti consumer / anti competition? But they were simply waiting for AMD to make something competitive again so they could stop people from claiming they were running a monopoly? why else would they have something ready to go (coffee lake) so soon after Ryzen was announced

 

feel free to discuss and be triggered. have fun.

If you're ahead of your competition and you pull farther and farther, you'll have no competition and will eventually have to split the company depending on monopoly laws. Also, CFL was already planned for 2018, this was no surprise.

[mynameisjuan]

9 hours ago, asus killer said:

think of it this way, you could today buy a new generation CPU (and use it and get better performance) and in 6 months buy a new generation motherboard. Again you get choices as a consumer, better then some corporate overloads deciding for yourself what you should do and when with your money. Some CPU+Motherboard combos are really expensive.

 

That make no sense. If the old mother board is working fine then why waste money on a new one. 

 

We get it. You hate intel. But bitching because a new board needs to be purchased every 2-3 years is not going to change anything. There is a valid reason for z370 and the extra power and you recommend let the consumers make the decision on what they want to try just just dumb because most consumers are idiots and will break something then bitch even more to intel.

 

As @thorhammerz said, its a damned if you do damned if you dont situation and you are the one damning for each side. 

[cj09beira]

22 hours ago, thorhammerz said:

 

^.

 

RMA's are very expensive to process. And if one wants Intel to release a QVL on which motherboards would work with an i3 or an i5.... a cursor consideration into the time & costs of doing so quickly rules it out as a viable option (return for investment).

 

It is just much simpler to disable backwards compatibility, with a known cost of doing so.

that wouldn't be up to intel, but up to the board manufacturers and it would be as easy as check the specs of the vrms and only having new bios for those that could handle the new cpus

[Jito463]

9 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

That makes (sic) no sense. If the old mother board is working fine then why waste money on a new one.

New features, perchance?  That makes some sense to me.

10 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

There is a valid reason for z370

Yep, that was already addressed on page one.

On 12/4/2017 at 1:10 PM, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

 

And what's their excuse for z390?  That z370 isn't compatible with Ice Lake?  The upcoming z390 is what z370 should have been.  They rushed it out the door because they wanted to get a product out to better compete with Ryzen, regardless of the consequences to their customers or the vendors (such as where I work) that sell their products.  z370 has no improvements over z270, save for the modified CPU socket (and it's questionable whether that was even necessary).

11 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

and you recommend let the consumers make the decision on what they want to try just just dumb because most consumers are idiots and will break something then bitch even more to intel.

So, because some people are dumb, your advice is to take choice away from everyone else who isn't?

 

The fact is, Intel could have made it all work if they had bothered to put enough time and effort into compatibility.  They chose not to because they don't care.  You can argue all day about whether you agree or disagree with their decision, but the fact is that they just don't care to bother with backwards compatibility.