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NumLock21

Asus believes Coffee Lake should work on Z270

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38 minutes ago, vorticalbox said:

seeing as am4 is support then few releases of cpu while intel just released a new motherboard for their new line I would say and will wind up cheaper in the end. 

 

Long platform compatability does not always equal $/performance gains.    Even on AMD's best platform run (6 years), to go from the lowest CPU to the best gave you marginal performance improvements at the cost of ram restrictions and SMT restrictions.   Assuming Ryzen goes the way we expect over the next 3 years that AM4 is supported, the best CPU you can expect to put on a current motherboard will be marginally better (maybe 30% at best?*) than what we have today,  minus any feature improvements that won't work on today's motherboards**.   When the current best AM4 CPU is  $500-600 that's a substantial upgrade cost considering there are no guarantee's you will get everything out of it.  And that is not too mention that the platform life expectancy is still 1 year short of the 4-5 year average upgrade cycle.   Which means even if you buy right at the start of the platform, for 99% of enthusiasts they are still going  to be upgrading when AM4 is obsolete.

 

TL:DR it doesn't matter if you upgrade a little bit more often or a lot less often, you spend about the same in the end.  The sweet spot for upgrading is GPU every 3-4 years (2 years for hardcore enthusiasts with money) and CPU every 4-6 years (3 years for hardcore enthusiasts with money). 

 

 

*each generation of CPU from both companies has averaged out to a bout 10% improvement from what I can tell. 

** unless you have a crystal ball and know what the future holds, we can only use history as a guide that it will happen.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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On 10/20/2017 at 5:23 AM, TidaLWaveZ said:

Which means what, a non noticeable performance increase at best?

If you only play video games and watch youtube then at worst you'll see no to little gain. If you do work, that's a different story.


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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

Long platform compatability does not always equal $/performance gains.    Even on AMD's best platform run (6 years), to go from the lowest CPU to the best gave you marginal performance improvements at the cost of ram restrictions and SMT restrictions.   Assuming Ryzen goes the way we expect over the next 3 years that AM4 is supported, the best CPU you can expect to put on a current motherboard will be marginally better (maybe 30% at best?*) than what we have today,  minus any feature improvements that won't work on today's motherboards**.   When the current best AM4 CPU is  $500-600 that's a substantial upgrade cost considering there are no guarantee's you will get everything out of it.  And that is not too mention that the platform life expectancy is still 1 year short of the 4-5 year average upgrade cycle.   Which means even if you buy right at the start of the platform, for 99% of enthusiasts they are still going  to be upgrading when AM4 is obsolete.

 

TL:DR it doesn't matter if you upgrade a little bit more often or a lot less often, you spend about the same in the end.  The sweet spot for upgrading is GPU every 3-4 years (2 years for hardcore enthusiasts with money) and CPU every 4-6 years (3 years for hardcore enthusiasts with money). 

 

 

*each generation of CPU from both companies has averaged out to a bout 10% improvement from what I can tell. 

** unless you have a crystal ball and know what the future holds, we can only use history as a guide that it will happen.

Upgrade cycles have always been all over the place for me. From: K6-2 500>Celeron 450A>Pentium III 667>Celeron D 2.4GHz>Pentium III 667>Pentium 4 HT 3.2GHz>Core Duo T2600>Core 2 Duo T7600>i5 4440>i7 4790K


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Just now, Dabombinable said:

Upgrade cycles have always been all over the place for me. From: K6-2 500>Celeron 450A>Pentium III 667>Celeron D 2.4GHz>Pentium III 667>Pentium 4 HT 3.2GHz>Core Duo T2600>Core 2 Duo T7600>i5 4440>i7 4790K

I based my numbers on forum polls and news articles.  My personal upgrade cycle is about 7-8 years, but I also personally know one person who upgrades closer to 3 years.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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On 10/19/2017 at 8:07 AM, TidaLWaveZ said:

That's my whole beef with the thread title, it's all hypothetical, nothing has been confirmed.

we know that intel had these CPUS working on z270 in testing before it was disabled with microcode. 


Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

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Skunkworks: R5 3500U, 16gb, 250 intel 750, 500gb Adata XPG 6000 lite, Vega 8. HP probook G455R G6

Condor (MC server): 6600K, z170m plus, 16gb corsair vengeance LPX, samsung 750 evo, EVGA BR 450.

Compute server Rappter(remember to add link) HP DL380G6 2xE5520 24GB ram with 4x146gb 10k drives and 4x300gb 10K drives, running NOTHING can't get anything to work

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On 10/20/2017 at 11:31 AM, MageTank said:

I also made a prediction that ASRock would totally circumvent this if they can, like they always do. I am still waiting for that one to come true.

they have before, like on skylake with external clock generators and I so want them to do it again. 


Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

NightHawk 2.0: R7 2700 @4.0ghz, B450m Steel Legends, H105, 2x8gb Gell EVO 3200, XFX RX 580 8GB, Corsair RM750X, 500 gb 850 evo, 500gb 850 pro and 5tb Toshiba x300

Skunkworks: R5 3500U, 16gb, 250 intel 750, 500gb Adata XPG 6000 lite, Vega 8. HP probook G455R G6

Condor (MC server): 6600K, z170m plus, 16gb corsair vengeance LPX, samsung 750 evo, EVGA BR 450.

Compute server Rappter(remember to add link) HP DL380G6 2xE5520 24GB ram with 4x146gb 10k drives and 4x300gb 10K drives, running NOTHING can't get anything to work

WIP NAS Spirt Cisco Security Multiservices Platform server e5420 12gb ram, 1x6 1tb raid 6 for plex + Need funding 16+1 2tb raid 6 for mass storage.

PSU Tier List      Motherboard Tier List      How to get PC parts cheap

 

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1 hour ago, GDRRiley said:

we know that intel had these CPUS working on z270 in testing before it was disabled with microcode. 

The problem is there are more chipsets than the Z series, sure we are all gamers here so most likely run Z series but as has been pointed out before there are other ones which might not have worked. Intel could have made Z270 have exclusive CL support on 200 series chipsets but RIP anyone that isn't running Z270.

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20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The problem is there are more chipsets than the Z series, sure we are all gamers here so most likely run Z series but as has been pointed out before there are other ones which might not have worked. Intel could have made Z270 have exclusive CL support on 200 series chipsets but RIP anyone that isn't running Z270.

well do most people who buy PCs upgrade them no. so I don't see it as being as of a issues. I would be ok if it only worked on z170/270, and thats it. most people will other configurations aren't that likely to do a cpu swap. 


Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

NightHawk 2.0: R7 2700 @4.0ghz, B450m Steel Legends, H105, 2x8gb Gell EVO 3200, XFX RX 580 8GB, Corsair RM750X, 500 gb 850 evo, 500gb 850 pro and 5tb Toshiba x300

Skunkworks: R5 3500U, 16gb, 250 intel 750, 500gb Adata XPG 6000 lite, Vega 8. HP probook G455R G6

Condor (MC server): 6600K, z170m plus, 16gb corsair vengeance LPX, samsung 750 evo, EVGA BR 450.

Compute server Rappter(remember to add link) HP DL380G6 2xE5520 24GB ram with 4x146gb 10k drives and 4x300gb 10K drives, running NOTHING can't get anything to work

WIP NAS Spirt Cisco Security Multiservices Platform server e5420 12gb ram, 1x6 1tb raid 6 for plex + Need funding 16+1 2tb raid 6 for mass storage.

PSU Tier List      Motherboard Tier List      How to get PC parts cheap

 

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Let's just hope games remain largely GPU dependant, and that developers don't start programming stuff that would make quad core CPUs unable to keep up. At least for the next 4 to 5 years.

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On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎20 at 2:15 PM, TheLaserCucumber said:

I‘m going to say that all Z170 and Z270 boards are capable of delivering the bit more power the extra 2 Cores need.

probably, but then people wouls start trying to get h110 or b250 boards to work via BIOS hacks, and have poor stability, then blame intel for a badly designed CPU

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39 minutes ago, strat guy said:

Let's just hope games remain largely GPU dependant, and that developers don't start programming stuff that would make quad core CPUs unable to keep up. At least for the next 4 to 5 years.

Yep, although I think at worst those who purchased 4c no HT in the last year or two might find themselves right on the cusp of needing an upgrade sooner than they would like, history says we should be fine for a little while yet.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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Is it me or are people forgetting the way LGA775 was handled across at the very least 2 different power delivery specifications, and across 3 different manufacturing nodes? The boards may have been primitive compared to current ones, but manufacturers would enable forwards and backwards compatibility if the board could support it without Intel having a say in things.

I hope the manufacturers ignore Intel and implement forwards compatibility as they have in the past when boards have been more than capable of supporting a CPU or feature (such as overclocking via the multiplier on some H87 and H97 boards)


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
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1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

I hope the manufacturers ignore Intel

Compatibility is locked at the management engine (ME) level, so the motherboard manufacturers do not have much leeway (if any) to do so :(.

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1 hour ago, strat guy said:

Let's just hope games remain largely GPU dependant, and that developers don't start programming stuff that would make quad core CPUs unable to keep up. At least for the next 4 to 5 years.

No thanks, I've been 6+ cores since i7-970. Bring on the threads revolution! :P

 

But really what should happen is dynamical thread scaling (where possible) so you can use more if you can more but don't get heavily penalized if you don't, how effectively that can be done does depend a lot on the type of game though. For example Galactic Civilizations 3 can already do this, turn based strategy game so is basically the best case possible.

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6 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Compatibility is locked at the management engine (ME) level, so the motherboard manufacturers do not have much leeway (if any) to do so :(.

So as well as the IME being a security hole, its also used to ream consumers? Another reason to go with what ever is beyond Ryzen (when my 4790K finally doesn't cut it anymore in games).


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
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48 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Is it me or are people forgetting the way LGA775 was handled across at the very least 2 different power delivery specifications, and across 3 different manufacturing nodes? The boards may have been primitive compared to current ones, but manufacturers would enable forwards and backwards compatibility if the board could support it without Intel having a say in things.

I hope the manufacturers ignore Intel and implement forwards compatibility as they have in the past when boards have been more than capable of supporting a CPU or feature (such as overclocking via the multiplier on some H87 and H97 boards)

I've been wondering that recently too, with the average CL consuming half the watts of Prescott.  Primitive probably has little to do with it, I'd say it would have more to do with the number of transistors and package density. 

 

EDIT: although just reading some torture tests the PC does appear to go up fast and match if not exceed the average Prescott numbers.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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2 hours ago, strat guy said:

Let's just hope games remain largely GPU dependant, and that developers don't start programming stuff that would make quad core CPUs unable to keep up. At least for the next 4 to 5 years.

You say this in age where dual cores are still enough and where even quad cores are far more powerful than console CPUs.

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2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I've been wondering that recently too, with the average CL consuming half the watts of Prescott.  Primitive probably has little to do with it, I'd say it would have more to do with the number of transistors and package density. 

 

EDIT: although just reading some torture tests the PC does appear to go up fast and match if not exceed the average Prescott numbers.

Considering I had my Pentium 4 540J used for years inside a reference 3 phase Intel motherboard (the kind with the mosfets sticking up+without a heatsink-the combo is from an ex office reception PC), there really is no reason for the majority of Z170 and Z270 boards to not be allowed to run CL CPU. Then again, Intel really are assholes when it comes to being even remotely consumer friendly-even when their market share is in jeopardy.


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
PMSL

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27 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Considering I had my Pentium 4 540J used for years inside a reference 3 phase Intel motherboard (the kind with the mosfets sticking up+without a heatsink-the combo is from an ex office reception PC), there really is no reason for the majority of Z170 and Z270 boards to not be allowed to run CL CPU. Then again, Intel really are assholes when it comes to being even remotely consumer friendly-even when their market share is in jeopardy.

Their market share is in jeopardy?Wow...By the way instead of complaining about Z170/Z270 compatibility consumers could have simply bought AMD's CPUs.

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25 minutes ago, MyName13 said:

Their market share is in jeopardy?Wow...By the way instead of complaining about Z170/Z270 compatibility consumers could have simply bought AMD's CPUs.

Well to be fair you wouldn't have wanted to back when Z170 was new, or even when Z270 came out. Z270 was Q1 2017 and Ryzen was Q2 2017 so you'd have to be a brave sole to bank on AMD at that time. 

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6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well to be fair you wouldn't have wanted to back when Z170 was new, or even when Z270 came out. Z270 was Q1 2017 and Ryzen was Q2 2017 so you'd have to be a brave sole to bank on AMD at that time. 

I'm trying to point out that AMD had nothing but FX CPUs when z170 and z270 came out and therefore they have no excuse to complain.

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1 hour ago, MyName13 said:

Their market share is in jeopardy?Wow...By the way instead of complaining about Z170/Z270 compatibility consumers could have simply bought AMD's CPUs.

It is due to the pricing difference between Intel and AMD (which isn't helped by Intel's insistence that all consumer CPU need an iGPU). And buying a new CPU on its own would be cheaper than a new board+cpu+cooler (if you were overclocking and couldn't get an AM4 mounting kit for your cooler). Plus there is the fact that Intel has gone out of their way to prevent compatibility.


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
PMSL

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I mean yeah some super high end Z270 motherboards could work but how many of the cheap ones, are considered not useable with CoffeeLake and how do you regulate that.

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8 hours ago, leadeater said:

No thanks, I've been 6+ cores since i7-970. Bring on the threads revolution! :P

 

But really what should happen is dynamical thread scaling (where possible) so you can use more if you can more but don't get heavily penalized if you don't, how effectively that can be done does depend a lot on the type of game though. For example Galactic Civilizations 3 can already do this, turn based strategy game so is basically the best case possible.

The plebs have breached the gates, master. They're bringing more cores, more threads, more everything. The quads will be wiped out.

 

7 hours ago, MyName13 said:

You say this in age where dual cores are still enough and where even quad cores are far more powerful than console CPUs.

Really, dual cores can handle modern AAA titles like GTA V etc ?

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