Audiophiles help! Turntable and Amp/Dac Compatibility

[ShadowWolf810]

Hey guys, so I know just enough about higher end audio to get myself into trouble. Have been wanting to upgrade my audio for awhile, pulled the trigger on the Massdrop Sennheiser 6XX's (650's). Was planning on going with the Modi 2 Uber and Magni 3 from Schiit. Then happened to see some cheap turntables on Craigslist and thought that might be fun to try out. Was talking with the guy to meet today and now I'm not sure that combination will work out....?

 

Any help would be much appreciated!

 

 

[Volbet]

If you're only going to use a turntable then you won't need a DAC. The signal is already analog.

You'll also need a phono pre-amp to get a usable and pleasant sounding signal from the turntable.

[ShadowWolf810]

@VolbetSo that setup was mainly for PC audio meant to go to headphones, then turntable as a bit of an after thought. I was thinking that because the Modi had RCA inputs then I could just plug in the turntable. 

 

Gotcha, so in the Schiit world that'd be the Mani right? 

 

I guess the other question is if I got a turntable that has a built in phono pre-amp can I plug that into my amp then listen on headphones? 

[Volbet]

4 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

@VolbetSo that setup was mainly for PC audio meant to go to headphones, then turntable as a bit of an after thought. I was thinking that because the Modi had RCA inputs then I could just plug in the turntable. 

 

Gotcha, so in the Schiit world that'd be the Mani right? 

 

I guess the other question is if I got a turntable that has a built in phono pre-amp can I plug that into my amp then listen on headphones? 

The Modi doesn't have RCA inputs. It has RCA outputs. 

The Schiit Mani is indeed a phono pre-amp that can be used with turntables.

 

Yes, if you get a turntable with a build in phono pre-amp you'll be able to plug it straight into an amp like the Magni.

The same thing would go for a turntable that makes use of a ceramic cartridge.  

[ShadowWolf810]

4 minutes ago, Volbet said:

The Modi doesn't have RCA inputs. It has RCA outputs. 

The Schiit Mani is indeed a phono pre-amp that can be used with turntables.

 

Yes, if you get a turntable with a build in phono pre-amp you'll be able to plug it straight into an amp like the Magni.

The same thing would go for a turntable that makes use of a ceramic cartridge.  

See this is what I was going off of on Schiit's website. 

 

http://www.schiit.com/products/modi-2

 

I didn't think it had RCA inputs either, but I was thinking maybe the input right under the word UBER (black inside, labeled with open circle) was what they meant, because there are adapters to take the typical red and white, and go to one. 

 

 

Just to be clear, a turntable with a ceramic cartridge doesn't need a pre-amp and could go straight into the Magni? 

[Volbet]

14 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

See this is what I was going off of on Schiit's website. 

 

http://www.schiit.com/products/modi-2

 

I didn't think it had RCA inputs either, but I was thinking maybe the input right under the word UBER (black inside, labeled with open circle) was what they meant, because there are adapters to take the typical red and white, and go to one. 

 

 

Just to be clear, a turntable with a ceramic cartridge doesn't need a pre-amp and could go straight into the Magni? 

The black RCA input is a coaxial input. It doesn't accept an analog signal (at least to my knowledge). 

It might use the same connector as normal RCA but the signals are very different.

 

Yes, the output of a ceramic cartridge is strong enough to not need phono amplification.

Not to say it'll be a pleasant experience using a ceramic cartridge, but it will work.  

[ShadowWolf810]

7 minutes ago, Volbet said:

The black RCA input is a coaxial input. It doesn't accept an analog signal (at least to my knowledge). 

It might use the same connector as normal RCA but the signals are very different.

 

Yes, a the output of a ceramic cartridge is strong enough to not need phono amplification.

Not to say it'll be a pleasant using a ceramic cartridge but it will work.  

Got it, its weird that they label it is an RCA input on their website though isn't it?

 

Alright outsider's perspective time, 

 

For someone entry level just trying turntables out (and trying not to spend a ton on something before I know if I'll use it a lot), would you go with this turntable and get the Mani? https://boulder.craigslist.org/ele/6309429261.html He said he'd sell it to me for $50 instead of $60 too.

 

Or find one with a built in a phono pre amp? 

[ShadowWolf810]

@Volbet Also from what I can see it looks like Coaxial is strictly a digital format, but then it begs the question why this exists...

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DL2OVE/ref=asc_df_B005DL2OVE5222080/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B005DL2OVE&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193992629021&hvpos=1o5&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15615487420409029718&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028818&hvtargid=pla-312682286857

 

Holy long link

[Volbet]

9 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

Got it, its weird that they label it is an RCA input on their website though isn't it?

 

Alright outsider's perspective time, 

 

For someone entry level just trying turntables out (and trying not to spend a ton on something before I know if I'll use it a lot), would you go with this turntable and get the Mani? https://boulder.craigslist.org/ele/6309429261.html

 

Or find one with a built in a phono pre amp? 

If the stylus/cartridge and the belt on the Pioneer turntable are relatively new and/or unused then it looks like a good deal. 

I would go with it over pretty much all the entry level turntable being sold as new today. Even the ones with a build in pre-amp. 

 

You don't have to go with the Mani pre-amp. Any phono pre-amp will do. 

Not to say that there isn't a difference between pre-amps, but if you're just starting out then a cheaper one would easily do. 

I don't even know how good the Mani is a pre-amp. I unfortunately haven't had any opportunities to test it. 

 

3 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

@Volbet Also from what I can see it looks like Coaxial is strictly a digital format, but then it begs the question why this exists...

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DL2OVE/ref=asc_df_B005DL2OVE5222080/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B005DL2OVE&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193992629021&hvpos=1o5&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15615487420409029718&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028818&hvtargid=pla-312682286857

 

Holy long link

It exists to bridge the signal. 

The cable will carry an analog signal, so it can be used to link subwoofers together. 

It can also be used to create a serial chain of DACs, which can be useful in certain professional or prosumer scenarios. 

 

It can also be used to send a digital signal out to two different receiving units from the same source.  

[ShadowWolf810]

 

@VolbetGot it, can you list some of the major priorities you'd look for in a turntable as far as getting the best value for say, under $100. 

 

There are a few other options on Craigslist I could look into, that may have a built in pre-amp and also be better than any entry level brand new one as well.

 

If that were the case, I could get one for $100 (instead of like $50+cheaper preamp) bucks to try it out, use with the equipment I was already going to get, and not be itching to go with the Mani for the sake of matching equipment on my desk  

 

Edit: Also that makes sense for the adapter, it said it could be used with other RCA capable components so thought that might include turntables. 

 

Yeah I'm really not sure what would happen if you were to feed an analogue signal into the coaxial of a DAC when its expecting a digital signal. It would be cool if it would just pass it through unaffected since its already analogue but I feel like that wouldn't be the case. 

[Volbet]

18 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

Got it, can you list some of the major priorities you'd look for in a turntable as far as getting the best value for say, under $100. 

 

There are a few other options on Craigslist I could look into, that may have a built in pre-amp and also be better than any entry level brand new one as well.

 

If that were the case, I could get one for $100 (instead of like $50+cheaper preamp) bucks to try it out, use with the equipment I was already going to get, and not be itching to go with the Mani for the sake of matching equipment on my desk  

Well, when you look used the two major things I would look for would be the state of the stylus/cartridge and the state of the belt. 

Those are the two things that gets worn down the quickest and therefor the two things that needs replacing most of the time. 

That is why I will always have short listening session before I buy a used turntable. 

On automatic (and semi-automatic) turntables you should also check if all the automatic features are working as they should.  

Other than that I would look for cosmetic things like blemishes, scratches, cracks etc.  

You should probably also look into what the platter is made of, the noise and vibrations of the motor and the material used for the turntable itself. 

 

There are also some personal things, but those can considered or not.

Personally, I would look for turntables that doesn't have a build in pre-amp, that is capable of accepting .5" cartridges and doesn't have the RCA cables hardwired into it. 

 

There are probably some things I forgot to mention. @spwath might be more helpful in this department, since he has a lot more experience than me with buying used equipment. 

[ShadowWolf810]

4 minutes ago, Volbet said:

Well, when you look used the two major things I would look for would be the state of the stylus/cartridge and the state of the belt. 

Those are the two things that gets worn down the quickest and therefor the two things that needs replacing most of the time. 

That is why I will always have short listening session before I buy a used turntable. 

On automatic (and semi-automatic) turntables you should also check if all the automatic features are working as they should.  

Other than that I would look for cosmetic things like blemishes, scratches, cracks etc.  

You should probably also look into what the platter is made of, the noise and vibrations of the motor and the material used for the turntable itself. 

 

There are also some personal things, but those can considered or not.

Personally, I would look for turntables that doesn't have a build in pre-amp, that is capable of accepting .5" cartridges and doesn't have the RCA cables hardwired into it. 

Alright, thanks for all your help, I might have some more questions tonight but I need to run out right now for some other stuff. There's a record and turntable store here, I think I'll go talk with them too and get a little better idea of everything, will be much faster in person. 

 

There are a few USB turntables, which in theory I could plug straight into the DAC, pass through to the amp and then use Toslink out from my PC to the DAC and then only need the Modi and Magni. But the question is, are USB turntables hipster enough? lol but really, are they considered like a step down from even entry level regular ones?

[spwath]

Make sure it sounds good for one.

Two, print out a strobe disc, and test if it runs at the right speed. The idea is you print out a disc, you can find them online, and there are dashed lines around the outside. You print one out based on your electricity (60hrz in the US).

You shine an incandescent light bulb (typical old kind. Florecent or LED wont work) on it, and if the lines on the disc are not moving, its running at the right speed. If they move forward, the TT moves too fast. That's not good. If they move backward, it moves too slow. It may need a new belt. Or it could be worse.

[Volbet]

2 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

Alright, thanks for all your help, I might have some more questions tonight but I need to run out right now for some other stuff. There's a record and turntable store here, I think I'll go talk with them too and get a little better idea of everything, will be much faster in person. 

 

There are a few USB turntables, which in theory I could plug straight into the DAC, pass through to the amp and then use Toslink out from my PC to the DAC and then only need the Modi and Magni. But the question is, are USB turntables hipster enough? lol but really, are they considered like a step down from even entry level regular ones?

A USB turntable wouldn't really work plugged straight into the DAC, since both ends would make use of a USB-B connector, making communication impossible in accordance with the USB standard.

You would have to connect the turntable to a PC and connect the PC to the DAC for it to work.

 

But I would argue that making use of a digital signal kinda defeats the purpose of vinyl records.

Having to digitally encode and decode the signal makes the exercise kinda pointless, considering that the point should be to listen to purely analog music.

[ShadowWolf810]

7 minutes ago, spwath said:

Make sure it sounds good for one.

Two, print out a strobe disc, and test if it runs at the right speed. The idea is you print out a disc, you can find them online, and there are dashed lines around the outside. You print one out based on your electricity (60hrz in the US).

You shine an incandescent light bulb (typical old kind. Florecent or LED wont work) on it, and if the lines on the disc are not moving, its running at the right speed. If they move forward, the TT moves too fast. That's not good. If they move backward, it moves too slow. It may need a new belt. Or it could be worse.

Interesting, I knew speed was a factor to consider but that's a clever way to check it. Is it possible to tell if the speed is right from listening to a song you know really well? Maybe not as precisely as the strobe method?

[ShadowWolf810]

9 minutes ago, Volbet said:

A USB turntable wouldn't really work plugged straight into the DAC, since both ends would make use of a USB-B connector, making communication impossible in accordance with the USB standard.

You would have to connect the turntable to a PC and connect the PC to the DAC for it to work.

 

But I would argue that making use of a digital signal kinda defeats the purpose of vinyl records.

Having to digitally encode and decode the signal makes the exercise kinda pointless, considering that the point should be to listen to purely analog music.

Hmm yeah that's a good point, hadn't really considered that while trying to figure out the most convenient way to get one functioning for me. I'll keep looking into it all! 

[KaminKevCrew]

If you want a normal turntable to work with all Schiit gear, AND you want to be able to use digital sources (assuming we are talking about headphones only, and not speakers, at the cheapest possible from Schiit exclusively)

You'll need the following:

 

Headphones into a Schiit magni 3, which goes into a Schiit SYS, which is then connected to a Modi 2, and a Mani. From there, the modi 2 will connect to whatever you hook it up to, and the mani will connect to your turntable.

 

If you also wanted to run speakers (again form Schiit only), then you'd add a second SYS, this one hooked up between the modi and the magni, and then you'd have that sys switch between the modi and a Vidar.

[spwath]

25 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

Interesting, I knew speed was a factor to consider but that's a clever way to check it. Is it possible to tell if the speed is right from listening to a song you know really well? Maybe not as precisely as the strobe method?

Yeah, it should be, but not as obvious. I got a turntable, guy demoed it with unfamiliar music, sounded great. I used it at home, sounded great. But then I started to notice it sounded a bit off. I compared the speed to the song on my computer, and it was a bit off. Luckily the guy was very nice and helped me troubleshoot it, and bought a new belt, fixing it.

[ShadowWolf810]

13 minutes ago, KaminKevCrew said:

If you want a normal turntable to work with all Schiit gear, AND you want to be able to use digital sources (assuming we are talking about headphones only, and not speakers, at the cheapest possible from Schiit exclusively)

You'll need the following:

 

Headphones into a Schiit magni 3, which goes into a Schiit SYS, which is then connected to a Modi 2, and a Mani. From there, the modi 2 will connect to whatever you hook it up to, and the mani will connect to your turntable.

 

If you also wanted to run speakers (again form Schiit only), then you'd add a second SYS, this one hooked up between the modi and the magni, and then you'd have that sys switch between the modi and a Vidar.

Not opposed to running some other non-Schiit, cheap pre-amp as I get started. This was more of a "oh sure I'll blow $60 for a turntable and a couple records, why not" kind of endeavor. 

 

Having all Schiit gear would be nice for the sake of matching. I actually haven't even ordered any Schiit anything so far so maybe another option would be better, that's just what I landed on after researching amps/DACs for headphones? I think eventually figured I'd need that same configuration, all though the SYS is just for the luxuary of not having to rearrange cables?

 

I also have a set of speakers, but they aren't fancy reference monitors type of speakers. They're decent for computer speakers, they have a 3.5mm line out that I plug into my PC, that goes to a subwoofer, which then has a pair of speakers connected into the subwoofer with 3.5mm jacks as well. 

 

I was assuming to take the pre-amp outputs from the Magni 3 and use an adapter for Red/White RCA to 3.5mm, then plug the line out that's usually going into my computer into that. 

 

Am I correct in thinking that would work?  

[ShadowWolf810]

3 minutes ago, spwath said:

Yeah, it should be, but not as obvious. I got a turntable, guy demoed it with unfamiliar music, sounded great. I used it at home, sounded great. But then I started to notice it sounded a bit off. I compared the speed to the song on my computer, and it was a bit off. Luckily the guy was very nice and helped me troubleshoot it, and bought a new belt, fixing it.

Gotcha, I'll definitely keep my eyes out then. Not exactly convenient to bring an incandescent lightbulb and ask people to change it so I can test hahah, guess I could use a cheap desk lamp or something. 

 

I'm thinking when I go to the vinyl shop later I'll try and find a record of at least on of my favorite songs, and then the cheapest most scratched one they have around. Use that one for initial testing just so it doesn't ruin a nice record, then use the nice one to verify sound. Definitely good advice though!

[KaminKevCrew]

1 minute ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

Not opposed to running some other non-Schiit, cheap pre-amp as I get started. This was more of a "oh sure I'll blow $60 for a turntable and a couple records, why not" kind of endeavor. 

 

Having all Schiit gear would be nice for the sake of matching. I think eventually figured I'd need that same configuration, all though the SYS is just for the luxuary of not having to rearrange cables?

 

I also have a set of speakers, but they aren't fancy reference monitors type of speakers. They're decent for computer speakers, they have a 3.5mm line out that I plug into my PC, that goes to an Subwoofer, which then has a pair of speakers connected into the subwoofer with 3.5mm jacks as well. 

 

I was assuming to take the pre-amp outputs from the Magni 3 and use an adapter for Red/White RCA to 3.5mm, then plug the line out that's usually going into my computer into that. 

 

Am I correct in thinking that would work?  

Yes, the SYS is for the luxury of swapping cables, however, keep in mind that connectors have a finite number of insertions that they're rated for, and you may end up wearing those connectors out prematurely by swapping cables around all the time (which will require a new DAC/amp/whatever, or replacing the connectors themselves).

 

Yes, a 3.5mm to RCA adapter would work just fine in that situation.

[spwath]

Just now, ShadowWolf810 said:

Gotcha, I'll definitely keep my eyes out then. Not exactly convenient to bring an incandescent lightbulb and ask people to change it so I can test hahah, guess I could use a cheap desk lamp or something. 

 

I'm thinking when I go to the vinyl shop later I'll try and find a record of at least on of my favorite songs, and then the cheapest most scratched one they have around. Use that one for initial testing just so it doesn't ruin a nice record, then use the nice one to verify sound. Definitely good advice though!

You would want the lamp to be right close to the record. And it would have to be a wall power light, not batteries.

But yeah, still not convenient. But if you have something you know, you should be able to tell, especially if you do a direct comparison.

Provided the LP and CD masterings are the same speed....

 

[ShadowWolf810]

1 minute ago, KaminKevCrew said:

Yes, the SYS is for the luxury of swapping cables, however, keep in mind that connectors have a finite number of insertions that they're rated for, and you may end up wearing those connectors out prematurely by swapping cables around all the time (which will require a new DAC/amp/whatever, or replacing the connectors themselves).

 

Yes, a 3.5mm to RCA adapter would work just fine in that situation.

Got it, I think if I end up getting a turntable, then using it more than like 10 times in a month I won't have a problem getting the SYS for the convenience, I'm just not sure how into it I'll get if that makes sense. 

 

Ok glad to know that the speakers I already have will work. 

 

What do you think about my choice of Magni 3 and Modi 2 Uber for headphone amp/dac? Any others you'd recommend over those in that price range? 

 

Because in the event that I did get really into this, then maybe it would be a better option to go like, Modi 2 Uber into a Jotunheim with the phono pre amp. That would then give me the flexibility to upgrade to a better set of speakers that used XLR inputs. Would save money in the long run, and you're talking about like ~$450 for your config, 600ish for the one I just said, all up from the $250+$50 for the turntable of the original one I was thinking I could do... 

[ShadowWolf810]

5 minutes ago, spwath said:

You would want the lamp to be right close to the record. And it would have to be a wall power light, not batteries.

But yeah, still not convenient. But if you have something you know, you should be able to tell, especially if you do a direct comparison.

Provided the LP and CD masterings are the same speed....

 

Forgive me, am an audio noob, what does LP stand for? 

[spwath]

7 minutes ago, ShadowWolf810 said:

Forgive me, am an audio noob, what does LP stand for? 

Long Play. Other name for a standard record.

But don't worry about what I said. 99% of CD and LP masterings are the same speed.

They should be.

Sometimes though, things get messed up, like in Billy Joel's Cold Spring Harbor