Intel encourages you to compromise on older i7s with the "Game Without Compromise" bundle

[mynameisjuan]

Just now, cj09beira said:

if that person had gone amd, they would not be forced to buy a new board as they could just upgrade to ryzen 2, which will be compatible, and will have 50%+ improvement (because it will be 12 core)

Again....people dont upgrade every year. As I keep saying, the people this hurts the most is the people who upgrade every time something new comes out. Average upgrades are 3-4 years.

[cj09beira]

6 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Again....people dont upgrade every year. As I keep saying, the people this hurts the most is the people who upgrade every time something new comes out. Average upgrades are 3-4 years.

ryzen 2 is going to be a 2019 product, and even if he decided to upgrade in say 2020, he would have the ability to use ryzen 2 cpus instead of having to buy a new motherboard and cpu, again because of the huge perf gains that are expected with ryzen 2 (7nm)

[Dylanc1500]

9 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

if that person had gone amd, they would not be forced to buy a new board as they could just upgrade to ryzen 2, which will be compatible, and will have 50%+ improvement (because it will be 12 core)

I have to ask this as no one else seems to have. AMD has said that  AM4 will be supported till 2020, which means they will use that socket. Have they actually stated that the CHIPSETS will all be inter-compatible with CPUs released during that time period? Because they could continue using that specific socket but not necessarily  keep compatibility with chipsets across everything.

[JoostinOnline]

4 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Their solution however seems rather peculiar to say the last:

Typo there.

[cj09beira]

Just now, Dylanc1500 said:

I have to ask this as no one else seems to have. AMD has said that  AM4 will be supported till 2020, which means they will use that socket. Have they actually stated that the CHIPSETS will all be inter-compatible with CPUs released during that time period? Because they could continue using that specific socket but not necessarily  keep compatibility with chipsets across everything.

its implicit, and they have done it in the past many times, so i don't see why they wouldn't do it, plus support for a socket means nothing if you need a new board anyway, and would be a market nightmare if today's boards didn't support ryzen 2 

[pas008]

6 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

its implicit, and they have done it in the past many times, so i don't see why they wouldn't do it, plus support for a socket means nothing if you need a new board anyway, and would be a market nightmare if today's boards didn't support ryzen 2 

would they possibly limiting themselves on performance tweaks/etc by worrying about backwards compatibility?

 

cant completely go forward if you are always looking back

[Dylanc1500]

56 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

its implicit, and they have done it in the past many times, so i don't see why they wouldn't do it, plus support for a socket means nothing if you need a new board anyway, and would be a market nightmare if today's boards didn't support ryzen 2 

They have but it hasn't been fully perfect either. We shall see. I just don't want people to have presumptions because of something that hasn't been fully addressed. Thank you for the response.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Dylanc1500
Failed at English, don't type with a low blood sugar

[handymanshandle]

4 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Instead of trying to sell more 7700Ks and 6700Ks, they should improve Coffeelake availability.

No because if I had a change of mind with going Ryzen, at least I can use a 7700K in my board.

I mean if you're going to use the same socket, make it so that CPU works on all the chipsets. Otherwise use a different socket please.

[Dylanc1500]

11 minutes ago, pas008 said:

would they possibly limiting themselves on performance tweaks/etc by worrying about backwards compatibility?

 

cant completely go forward if you are always looking back

This is another great question to ask. As it's possible for a roll out of new features and tweaks that won't be available to older chipsets or CPUs even though it might be compatible.

It's like with the core2 CPUs, depending on which chipset and which CPUs were used you were forced to possibly run at a lower FSB speed.

[pas008]

6 minutes ago, Dylanc1500 said:

This is another great question to ask. As it's possible for a roll out of new features and tweaks that won't be available to older chipsets or CPUs even though it might be compatible.

It's like with the core2 CPUs, depending on which chipset and which CPUs were used you were forced to possibly run at a lower FSB speed.

look at the past

amd phII days and fx days always making them compatible too but if you bought yourself low powered board

you had issues oc'n thurban or even fx9xxxx series and still needed to upgrade board thurban not so much but still I knew quite few people that upgraded and was able to go higher

[cj09beira]

2 minutes ago, pas008 said:

look at the past

amd phII days and fx days always making them compatible too but if you bought yourself low powered board

you had issues oc'n thurban or even fx9xxxx series and still needed to upgrade board thurban not so much but still I knew quite few people that upgraded and was able to go higher

thats why its smart to not cheap out on your board if you buy ryzen today so that you have a good board to maybe carry you to ryzen 2 gloryy 

[Misanthrope]

This isn't an AMD thread guys, regardless of what AMD ends up doing or not doing with their AM4 platform just focus on intel.

[cj09beira]

24 minutes ago, pas008 said:

would they possibly limiting themselves on performance tweaks/etc by worrying about backwards compatibility?

 

cant completely go forward if you are always looking back

no because ryzen is a soc meaning that it relies very little on the board to do its thing,

[pas008]

Just now, cj09beira said:

thats why its smart to not cheap out on your board if you buy ryzen today so that you have a good board to maybe carry you to ryzen 2 gloryy 

if I buy new cpu I buy new board and memory too, usually alot more higher speed ram with tighter timings too

 

didnt a 2nd wave of mobos just get released? on multiple platforms?

its kinda been common now for rev1 2 etc

[pas008]

1 minute ago, cj09beira said:

no because ryzen is a soc meaning that it relies very little on the board to do its thing,

 

are all the pins being used on am4 socket for r7?

[cj09beira]

1 minute ago, pas008 said:

if I buy new cpu I buy new board and memory too, usually alot more higher speed ram with tighter timings too

 

didnt a 2nd wave of mobos just get released? on multiple platforms?

its kinda been common now for rev1 2 etc

that said 2nd wave was just the asus extreme, and another board though right?

[Taf the Ghost]

1 hour ago, Misanthrope said:

Technical reasons were provided afaik to explain away backwards compatibility but forwards compatibility should still be on the table imo. I mean they obviously have 4/8 chips they want to move  and they still covered the coffee lake mobo sales with no backwards compatibility.

 

Specially right now where people otherwise could buy Z370 boards and just use their current 4/8 i7s as placeholders to wait out the supply issues. It seems like there's many situations to actually not shoot yourself in the foot by killing platforms prematurely.

The lack of forward compatibility is the thing that has confused me most. You're still paying $315USD (Amazon) for a 6700k. A CPU that launched just above that over 2 years ago. Intel doesn't discount their older CPUs to keep people buying the most recent ones, but that means that buying a 7700k (which is a great CPU, don't forget that) is not a wise purchase for anyone in the market. You're going to be paying the same regardless, so why not just wait for the 8700k supply in 1-2 months?

 

This was the one generation they really shouldn't have rushed out the launch. The 8700k will be something like 50% of the sales volume in Retail channels, so everyone is just going to be waiting. If they'd launched in January, they'd have stock and all of the Christmas sales would have gone to the 7700k to clear out stock.

 

 

[GOTSpectrum]

Disclaimer I'm a little bit of an AMD fanboy. But as far as business goes, this is a really smart move, due to the limited IPC gains the only issue would be lack of cores, oh wait, you still don't really need more then 4/8 anyway. So 6700k, 7700k SKUs will probably hold up for the next few years even if bought today. That being said, I'm happy with my r7 1700 @3.8ghz

[Princess Luna]

4 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Instead of trying to sell more 7700Ks and 6700Ks, they should improve Coffeelake availability.

Intel has over-stocked Kaby Lake which was the shortest generation we've ever had.... now we pay for it >_<

 

It is interesting though here in Brazil I can buy right now any CL CPU including the i5 8600k at msrp... the ONLY one out of stock all around is the i7 8700k... >_<

 

The partners are also doing it on purposes imagine the huge stocks of z270 chipset boards that now nobody wants? probably reason why so far now not a bloody single mATX z370 has made it to market.

[cj09beira]

2 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The lack of forward compatibility is the thing that has confused me most. You're still paying $315USD (Amazon) for a 6700k. A CPU that launched just above that over 2 years ago. Intel doesn't discount their older CPUs to keep people buying the most recent ones, but that means that buying a 7700k (which is a great CPU, don't forget that) is not a wise purchase for anyone in the market. You're going to be paying the same regardless, so why not just wait for the 8700k supply in 1-2 months?

 

This was the one generation they really shouldn't have rushed out the launch. The 8700k will be something like 50% of the sales volume in Retail channels, so everyone is just going to be waiting. If they'd launched in January, they'd have stock and all of the Christmas sales would have gone to the 7700k to clear out stock.

 

 

i guess they were afraid amd would dominate the sales overall 

[mynameisjuan]

3 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

If they'd launched in January, they'd have stock and all of the Christmas sales would have gone to the 7700k to clear out stock.

And then we'd have people complaining that they just bought a 7700k and thats not fair! Since ryzen there is nothing intel can ever do right to a majority amount of people even though releasing it now is not a bad thing. Like ok you have to wait....but if it was released next year youd be waiting anyway.

[Taf the Ghost]

46 minutes ago, Dylanc1500 said:

I have to ask this as no one else seems to have. AMD has said that  AM4 will be supported till 2020, which means they will use that socket. Have they actually stated that the CHIPSETS will all be inter-compatible with CPUs released during that time period? Because they could continue using that specific socket but not necessarily  keep compatibility with chipsets across everything.

That will, mostly, be up to the Motherboard manufacturers. However, Zen & Zen+ are so similar that shouldn't be an issue. Ryzens can actually run with the PCH turned off, as the system is a fully functional SoC. But Zen2 chips will probably need a flashed BIOS.

 

We may get an AM4+ with Zen2 (actually, I'd expect it), where x370 & x470 still work with the Zen 2, but they won't get PCIe 4.0 and stuff. 

 

Other little rub, AM4 in 2020 is going to be the APU update. 2020 is almost assuredly Zen3 & DDR5, which will require a new Socket + Chipset.

[Dylanc1500]

3 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

That will, mostly, be up to the Motherboard manufacturers. However, Zen & Zen+ are so similar that shouldn't be an issue. Ryzens can actually run with the PCH turned off, as the system is a fully functional SoC. But Zen2 chips will probably need a flashed BIOS.

 

We may get an AM4+ with Zen2 (actually, I'd expect it), where x370 & x470 still work with the Zen 2, but they won't get PCIe 4.0 and stuff. 

 

Other little rub, AM4 in 2020 is going to be the APU update. 2020 is almost assuredly Zen3 & DDR5, which will require a new Socket + Chipset.

You put a lot of logical thought into that and I appreciate it! Is any of that known to be confirmed though? My only issue stems back to, nothing is known for sure and there are a lot of assumptions that we don't know. Maybe I'm off, but I'm one that likes definitives. 

[Taf the Ghost]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

And then we'd have people complaining that they just bought a 7700k and thats not fair! Since ryzen there is nothing intel can ever do right to a majority amount of people even though releasing it now is not a bad thing. Like ok you have to wait....but if it was released next year youd be waiting anyway.

I had a really long post (that I can't find) from the X299 debacle where I laid out that Intel hadn't actually made any incorrect decisions. What happened with a large confluence of things added up over time and AMD hit at the right moment to capitalize upon it, with the right products.

 

z370 was a rush job, and per Tiny Tom Logan the 300-series PCH simply wasn't ready when Intel wanted to start to production cycle. So they rush out with z370 (that'll be replaced somewhere next year) to get ahead of AMD in the cycle and hit the Holiday release window. But their supply of 8700ks is going to be low, apparently, through the end of the year. I imagine Intel ran the numbers and concluded that launching early was the better play, but it's ugly all around.

[MadyTehWolfie]

I don't see the compromise here I'm on a i7 6700k and don't plan on upgrading for about 2 more generations. So this is meh but good they are offering. Games though.