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Are loot boxes a form of unregulated gambling?

ZestyJalapeno

To me, it's no different from buying Magic: The Gathering booster packs. Which I found to be horribly inefficient after a while, and I ended up just buying the cards I wanted directly. 

 

I guess whether it constitutes gambling or not depends on your definition of gambling. Sure, you always get something, but what if that something isn't worth your money? Imagine if you spent $100 on a mystery bag with a random mix of items inside, and you had no idea what would be inside after you had paid for it. You might have some rather valuable items, or they could all be crap. Does this make it gambling? 

 

A better question would be whether it's worth the money or not. I personally feel that any IAP with results I have no control over are rarely ever worth the money in the long run. 

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Its not gambling because there is not a chance you'll lose your money and gain nothing from it. You are purchasing a "box" with something completely random in it. Just like if you go to McDonalds and get a toy in your Happy Meal. You don't know what toy you might get but you know you'll get something regardless. 

 

 

TL:DR Gambling is you bet money, have a chance to lose it all.

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7 minutes ago, huilun02 said:

Loot boxes should be considered as a form of gambling. Which is why for Battlefront 2, DICE should return to the BF1 model of paid DLC + paid Premium + Battlechests. We'd rather not have the opportunity to unlock everything by just investing time in gameplay.

Sure and watch the games die off like the previous ones.

 

Everything in life is a gamble, sooner people realise this, the better. Everytime you spend money on something it's a gamble, you have no idea if what you just bought is any good compared to the last time you bought it i.e silicon lottery.

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27 minutes ago, sof006 said:

Its not gambling because there is not a chance you'll lose your money and gain nothing from it. You are purchasing a "box" with something completely random in it. Just like if you go to McDonalds and get a toy in your Happy Meal. You don't know what toy you might get but you know you'll get something regardless. 

 

 

TL:DR Gambling is you bet money, have a chance to lose it all.

So if I bet $10 with a chance to win either $1, $2, $5 or $20, it's not gambling? 

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4 hours ago, Bouzoo said:

I'm, gonna play the devil's advocate and say it's not gambling. Here is the thing. There is a chance and no risk. Difference? There is a chance you will get better rewards, but there is no risk of losing anything because you can't. You paid for the box or got it or w/e, but you are guaranteed to win something. 

Here's the dictionary definition of gambling:

 

intransitive verb
1a :to play a game for money or property
b :to bet on an uncertain outcome
2:to stake something on a contingency :take a chance
transitive verb
1:to risk by gambling :wager
 
I think that could definitely be used to describe loot boxes. What if you purchase two and they yeild the exact same reward?
 
The idea that gambling isn't gambling if there's a minimum prize opens a dangerous precedent IMO, where casinos and lotteries could start to offer a $1 guarantee win to avoid gambling regulations. It's basically a loophole in the system that game developing companies are exploiting at the moment.

 

44 minutes ago, XenosTech said:

Sure and watch the games die off like the previous ones.

 

Everything in life is a gamble, sooner people realise this, the better. Everytime you spend money on something it's a gamble, you have no idea if what you just bought is any good compared to the last time you bought it i.e silicon lottery.

Eh, not quite. If you buy something that doesn't work properly you can return or exchange it for another within a certain time limit. When I went to exchange a laptop I purchased that had coil whine the guy at Best Buy let me open up the new one and check it out before exchanging it. Anecdote, I know, but still it's quite common.

 

If you lose $100 at the slots you can't go back to the casino and demand a refund.

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2 minutes ago, OmJo93 said:

Eh, not quite. If you buy something that doesn't work properly you can return or exchange it for another within a certain time limit. When I went to exchange a laptop I purchased that had coil whine the guy at Best Buy let me open up the new one and check it out before exchanging it. Anecdote, I know, but still it's quite common.

 

If you lose $100 at the slots you can't go back to the casino and demand a refund.

It's still a gamble by definition... Still the possibility that the new item will be just as much of a dud as the last one. That's why I specifically said silicon lottery since most of you should be able to relate to that.

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6 minutes ago, XenosTech said:

It's still a gamble by definition... Still the possibility that the new item will be just as much of a dud as the last one. That's why I specifically said silicon lottery since most of you should be able to relate to that.

Odd, my post vanished...

 

Anyway, what I said was return policies essentially remove most of the risk for purchasing certain things. If that laptop was a dud I'd have 2 weeks to return it, eliminating the chance I lose my money.

 

It's not a universal rule, there's obvious exceptions. 

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3 minutes ago, OmJo93 said:

Odd, my post vanished...

 

Anyway, what I said was return policies essentially remove most of the risk for purchasing certain things. If that laptop was a dud I'd have 2 weeks to return it, eliminating the chance I lose my money.

 

It's not a universal rule, there's obvious exceptions. 

Return policies just make sure you don't get stuck with a defective product or something you don't like. It doesn't remove the risk of you having to purchase the item to find out it's a dud. Gambling isn't limited to only losing money, as long as there's a risk involved you are taking a gamble.

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So let's clear something up, those of you who say its not gambling because there is no chance of losing are wrong.

 

Gambling is legally defined as

Quote

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.

As long as you're spending money on an event with an uncertain outcome with the intent of winning a prize you're gambling (here in the UK even a simple raffle is technically classed as gambling as they are a lottery although the government allows low stakes raffles to remain unregulated as long as a set of rules is followed and the goal is to raise money for a good cause)

 

Buying loot boxes with real money with the intent of winning better star cards and loot is by its legal definition gambling.

 

FTR gambling when there is a chance of losing everything is actually called betting and (in the UK at least) is defined as a sub genre of gambling.

 

Are loot boxes gambling? Yes they are.

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1 hour ago, abazigal said:

So if I bet $10 with a chance to win either $1, $2, $5 or $20, it's not gambling? 

That is, but this isn't the same. Its a box with a random chance to win an in game item. Either way you win something in game worth the amount of money EA has stated.

 

Think of it like a claw machine in an Arcade. Except you don't have a high risk of the claw letting go.

 

This is in no way me justifying EA's decision to put this in their games. I don't like this as much as anyone else. 

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5 minutes ago, Arokhantos said:

 

In the old days no one saw your custom skin, now they do.

They actually did, depending on what game and what files required. Star Wars or the arena shooters for instance had packs to download and everyone saw them. Counter Strike you could either do client sided(not visually shared, which had advantages) or server sided and what automatic downloaded. Valve waited months with csgo for custom download from servers, later it made sense why.. And g-mod for instance from every other Valve game, as long the files are downloaded and installed.

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3 minutes ago, Arokhantos said:

Not everyone downloaded them.

Most did back then or it was required by a server plugin and automaticly downloaded from the server. If cool skins would be downloadable now, seriously 99% would download it right away.

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Just now, Arokhantos said:

Not everyone played those servers due data caps though :P

Ok then not, its not going matter what im going to say you wanna argue over it^ The content sizes was nothing compared to patches, so how data caps would stop that is beyond me. And in reality most did download it back then, by themselfs or by the server. Because most server and players ran those and the population was not affected by data caps^

 

From mods, maps, models, sounds and you name it. All those have sadly become payed content now, yeah even the freakin audio.

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10 hours ago, sof006 said:

That is, but this isn't the same. Its a box with a random chance to win an in game item. Either way you win something in game worth the amount of money EA has stated.

 

Think of it like a claw machine in an Arcade. Except you don't have a high risk of the claw letting go.

 

This is in no way me justifying EA's decision to put this in their games. I don't like this as much as anyone else. 

I just watched a good video on youtube addressing this very issue. 

My takeaway is that while loot boxes technically isn't gambling, it's eerily similar in terms of the reactions they are designed to elicit from the end user (the thrill of potentially winning something), though I am on the fence as to whether they ought to be regulated as such. The fact that you still get something (even if it is something worthless) seems intended to circumvent the letter of the law, and yes, I agree that I don't like it one bit either. 

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14 hours ago, Clanscorpia said:

Theyre literally the exact same as these just online:

Image result for lego minifigures bag

Are we going to ban lego minifigs? I highly doubt it, but they work on the exact same principle. If you dont like the lootbox system dont buy lootboxes.

I have to agree

My knee jerk reaction to the topic title was "Yes, of course it is gambling" but thinking about it for a moment I thought about the assorted "blind box" figures I've bought, I wouldn't call those gambling and I can't say they are any different than loot boxes.

Hell, I'm subscribed to Loot Crate and each month I pay to get a box of random stuff where the majority of it I don't want/keep and I wouldn't classify that as gambling either.

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It's a damn grab bag not gambling lol. A grab bag for idiots.

 

Haha for a second I pictured the equivalent to an addicted gambler but with lootcrates... sucking dicc or robbing people to buy lootcrates. Losing job and family over lootcrates :P

 

 

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Im interested in seeing how pegi seem to react to this, esrb has been all over the place in the past, pegi to my knowledge have been more strict. My expectation is that loot crates will likely be relegated to 18+ games if it could get outed as gambling 

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Update: Polygon reports that the UK's parliament is getting involved:

 

Quote

 

A member of the United Kingdom’s parliament has opened an inquiry into the loot-box model of microtransactions in console games, on behalf of a constituent who asked him about the legality of the practice.

Daniel Zeichner, a Labour MP from Cambridge, posed two questions to Karen Bradley, the U.K.’s secretary of state for digital, culture, media and sport. Zeichner asked what steps she will take “to protect vulnerable adults and children from illegal gambling, in-game gambling and loot boxes within computer games.”

His second question was specific to the jurisdiction of the Isle of Man, which has a stronger legal code specifically addressing “illegal and in-game gambling and loot boxes” and whether such protections could be extended to the nation on the whole.

 

 

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OP a poll would be nice to see what people think about this no?

 

I strongly want all these lootbox-ideas erased, no exceptions

a lootbox is in my perspective a slotmachine because it gives you a random outcome.

I'm actually worried of the younger people since they are more effected and find it normal.

 

 

 

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The worst part is it forms gambling habits in brains when they are most susceptible. Anything with loot crates should be rated for adults.

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It is 100 percent gambling that kids can join in on. The whole concept honestly makes me sick and the fact that we didn't nip it in the butt the minute it started happening is a failure on our part worse than that of letting Xbox live be a thing in my opinion.

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imo this is borderline gambling and it should be taxed accordingly. If those greedy publishers think there is no other way than this to make profit the state might as well benefit.

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I thought a bit about this over the last couple of days but I can't really decide whether it should be considered gambling or not. It's gambling in the sense that you pay real money and don't know exactly what you get. But then again, by that definition a Kinder egg could be considered gambling. There's also no official way to cash out on any game that i know of.

 

Anyway it pisses me off that apparently enough people are buying lootboxes that they've become a thing even in full price titles now, so it's good to finally see some backlash. Don't think it would get us anywhere if this was regulated, the publishers would just come up with the next best scheme to make money via microtransactions. People simply need to stop falling for that kind of crap.

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