Are loot boxes a form of unregulated gambling?

[Sauron]

17 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

As for the topic at hand is it gambling?  essentially no it is not. Yeah your paying for random things but you already have an idea of the type of stuff you get, and in some cases you get to chose what category those item(s) are a part of. So no it is not really a gamble. In gambling you either do get something in return or your do not (mostly likely not). Since you pay for a service and receive a product every-time that is not considered gambling.

In "normal" gambling you have a very precise idea of what you might get, and that is various amounts of money, or nothing. Bad lootboxes are equivalent to getting nothing, because it's content you don't care about and will most likely never use. Good lootboxes are in some cases straight up money thanks to the grey market for the items. It's also not true that you always get a product in return in some cases, as duplicates are often not filtered out.

 

If this was just about getting a "product" then there would be a straight up shop where you can buy exactly what you want and that would be that; still very annoying in a full price game, but at least more acceptable. Loot boxes have literally every element of gambling in them, including its addictive potential and fairly low chances of actually getting what you want with your money. Just the fact that it offers marginally better odds than your average slot machine doesn't make it any more acceptable. In fact, in a way it's worse than slot machines because developers often don't tell you what the chances are of getting certain items. Perhaps it does not strictly adhere to the legal definition of gambling (hence why they can get away with it at the moment), but that does not excuse it.

 

In my opinion the whole system is utterly indefensible and I have a very hard time thinking of any redeeming qualities about it. It's only bad for the consumer and only good for the publisher/developer.

[Hiitchy]

I just go with the analogy that life is a gamble. You gotta do things to get things and you have choices to make, those of which dictate how you go about many things in life. 

[RumSwift]

"To play a game of chance for money" - So technically no, which is why they get away with it.

 

In games like Overwatch where you buy lootboxes and get skins for your characters is fine IMO. If you have the disposable income to do that, whatever. 

 

In games like CSGO (which is where this all started) where you can then trade those items or gamble them away/sell them, then there is a problem.

 

Should there be an age restriction on buying lootboxes? Probably. 

 

Look back at Habbo, when people would buy credits then use in game casinos to gamble, then sell them on black markets for a profit (what easy money that was). That crackdown ruined the game. Don't know how that contributes but thought it might be worth mentioning. 

 

 

[Hairy Weasel]

Nice article on Eurogamer about whether loot boxes are gambling and how they should be regulated. Contains interviews with experts and regulators, but none of the game publishers contacted replied.

 

Common opinion: loot boxes are not gambling, because 1. you always get something 2. you can't exchange what you win with loot boxes for real money (third party sites where you can do so are most likely illegal.)

 

Quote

 

It seems we have now reached a breaking point in the loot box debate. YouTube, video game websites and forums are alight with complaints and streamers are yelling enough is enough. There's even a petition calling for the UK government to bring in tougher regulations regarding the use of loot boxes in video games. At the time of publication it had over 8500 signatures. 10,000 are needed to trigger a response from government.

 

But what can be done? Currently, loot boxes are not considered gambling. But the Gambling Commission is taking a closer look at gaming, PEGI is keeping a close eye on the situation and PR disasters around loot boxes are sure to impact video game sales. The wheels are turning on this one. Perhaps it's only a matter of time before the law has a change of heart, and video game developers, mindful of protecting the millions of pounds loot boxes make for their shareholders, will be forced to adapt.

 

 

[AlTech]

It is Gambling. So long as there is a risk, so long as consumers are tricked into wanting an endorphin rush to open a loot box: It is gambling.

 

There is nothing to deny here. If the US and UK government understood the situation then it wouldn't be allowed.

[AlTech]

The Original Article links to a Petition going on in the UK . Please sign it if you want to put an end to Loot Boxes https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300

[sun2]

Getting always something doesnt make it less gambling. It's comparable with kids version of roulete or slots. And thats a very conscious decision to make it look less like gambling, and in some way acceptable. You can also see this in other places with the same type of constructs. And thats the whole point of these loot boxes. They're targeted at people that are sensitive towards addictions and/or socially wanted items. Thats usually kids in this case. You pay a x amount to hopefully get the rarest, but the numbers are clearly against you, hence the point in rarity. They want you spend more on it, not less. It's a risk factor and not a skill factor, a huge difference in gambling or something skill based. And thanks for your money on losses though.

 

In the old days of gaming you could just download models yourself like Star Wars or Counter Strike and other games. Now you can waste insane amount of moneys to have a virtually cosmetic item. Its ridiculous that gaming scene went this way and everyone accepted this shake down of money.

 

You can exchange the items for real money as well, or use it for currency for other gambling websites. They definitly hold a real world value to it. You can even sell the skins or sell the accounts, both are very common.

 

I personally dont want them regulated at all. I want them banned. And open tools for the community to create custom cosmetics or a fair progession/unlock system. It's really ridiculous to think of if you want too look cool or some what unique in a online game you need to pay more money on a game. It's a shameless shake down of money, im not up for that.

[Bouzoo]

54 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

It is Gambling. So long as there is a risk, so long as consumers are tricked into wanting an endorphin rush to open a loot box: It is gambling.

I'm, gonna play the devil's advocate and say it's not gambling. Here is the thing. There is a chance and no risk. Difference? There is a chance you will get better rewards, but there is no risk of losing anything because you can't. You paid for the box or got it or w/e, but you are guaranteed to win something. 

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

The Original Article links to a Petition going on in the UK . Please sign it if you want to put an end to Loot Boxes https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300

I was signature number 4, I actually suggested this idea to Pretty Good Gaming in the comments on one of their videos on gambling and loot boxes and one of their patreons saw my suggestion, created it then sent me the link to sign.

[Master Disaster]

23 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

I'm, gonna play the devil's advocate and say it's not gambling. Here is the thing. There is a chance and no risk. Difference? There is a chance you will get better rewards, but there is no risk of losing anything because you can't. You paid for the box or got it or w/e, but you are guaranteed to win something. 

Except your money?

[Bouzoo]

7 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Except your money?

There is a difference in having a guarantee you will get something in return and knowing there is a chance you might get something. This is literally a purchase. 

[razaldo]

6 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

There is a difference in having a guarantee you will get something in return and knowing there is a chance you might get something. This is literally a purchase. 

It's a purchase where you don't know what you will get

You hope to get the rarest item

That's not a normal buy-sell transaction

It's like paying for pastries at a bakers shop not knowing if you will get the double chocolate fudge that you want or the broccoli bubble gum fudge that everyone seems to be getting

[Bouzoo]

19 minutes ago, razaldo said:

It's a purchase where you don't know what you will get

You hope to get the rarest item

That's not a normal buy-sell transaction

It's like paying for pastries at a bakers shop not knowing if you will get the double chocolate fudge that you want or the broccoli bubble gum fudge that everyone seems to be getting

And there is still a difference between guarantee that you'll get at least the broccoli bubble gum fudge and paying money to the baker and hoping he might give you the broccoli bubble gum fudge and not tell you to get lost. 

[Bananasplit_00]

Can't say I care how this ends up going, if it ends up being banned in just the UK publishers might just cut everything you can gain from them if it sees you are in the UK. If it's adopted worldwide then at least a few companies are going under, like Hirez where the loot boxes are just straight up their main income from their games afaik

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Bouzoo said:

I'm, gonna play the devil's advocate and say it's not gambling. Here is the thing. There is a chance and no risk. Difference? There is a chance you will get better rewards, but there is no risk of losing anything because you can't. You paid for the box or got it or w/e, but you are guaranteed to win something. 

You're a terrible advocate then. 

 

This is, much like a one-arm-bandit, gambling in the most literal sense.

[Bouzoo]

7 minutes ago, Majestic said:

You're a terrible advocate then. 

 

This is, much like a one-arm-bandit, gambling in the most literal sense.

I said I was playing the devil's advocate. I suppose there is a reason why I was never interested in law. 

 

[Prysin]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

You're a terrible advocate then. 

 

This is, much like a one-arm-bandit, gambling in the most literal sense.

i see you are still libeling companies.

[SeriousDad69]

Personally I don't think it's gambling but I'm all for anything and everything to reign in the recent loot box microtransaction madness.

[Clanscorpia]

Theyre literally the exact same as these just online:

Are we going to ban lego minifigs? I highly doubt it, but they work on the exact same principle. If you dont like the lootbox system dont buy lootboxes.

[Master Disaster]

There's a real argument to be made against this statement anyway which is, please define what "a thing" means.

 

Using the above example, I buy them Lego things, or Pokémon cards, football cards, baseball cards, whatever, I get something tangible, something I can touch, hold, feel, use.

 

I buy a loot box I get a few flashing pixels on a screen. Does that really count as "a thing"? (Genuine question btw)

 

Then there's the whole control side of it, cards & figurines etc don't come under gambling because there is no external control over what I'm going to get. The item is pre packed and nothing can change what's inside the packet when I buy it.

 

Loot boxes are not pre determined at all,  in fact (as was shown by the whole CSGO gambling thing), its more than possible for the person selling the box to be in complete control over its contents (ofc I'm not suggesting EA have an army of employees manually choosing who gets what out of every box) but the retailer being in charge of the outcome is manipulative at best and flat out illegal at worst. If I'm BUYING an item then my countries law states I have the right to know EXACTLY what I'm getting before I pay and if its sold digitally I have 14 days to return it for a full refund.

 

These fuckers want to play the game then fine, we can play back. I demand to know exactly what's it a box before I open it and I demand a refund policy for items I'm not happy with. After all, you're SELLING us things, we're not gambling for them.

[Lathlaer]

10 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Using the above example, I buy them Lego things, or Pokémon cards, football cards, baseball cards, whatever, I get something tangible, something I can touch, hold, feel, use.

 

I buy a loot box I get a few flashing pixels on a screen. Does that really count as "a thing"? (Genuine question btw)

What is a digital video game purchase then? It's literally pixels on your screen, it's not like you can touch it. Making a distinction if something can be touched or not shouldn't really come into play here.

 

After all, getting random item from a loot box is no different than buying specific item from online shop integrated into game - you can't touch either.

 

Now, as for whether someone is in control of a loot box vs. being in control of a pre-packed lego package/mtg booster pack etc. - I obviously don't know every instance of loot box in every game but when I was playing some MMO's, then loot boxes were RNG but you always knew what you could get. You didn't know the exact chance of getting the most desired item but you knew every type of item that could come out of it. Furthermore, some had guaranteed content, as in some type of crafting material as a 100% drop + RNG chance of getting other stuff.

 

If you consider the pool of, say, Ultra Rare MtG cards and you know that you get one per booster, it's basically the same thing - you know to some extent that you are getting something but have no idea if this is going to be the thing you want. 

 

Same with Lego - assuming there is a finite pool of figurines, you also know that you will get something and yet still no guarantee that it's going to be the one thing you want. Do you return it when it turns out that you didn't have luck?

 

AFAIK usually the loot boxes give you something - always. As long as there isn't option that you pay and get 0, then I think the comparison still stands.

21 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

These fuckers want to play the game then fine, we can play back. I demand to know exactly what's it a box before I open it and I demand a refund policy for items I'm not happy with. After all, you're SELLING us things, we're not gambling for them.

Go to a shop and ask for Magic the Gathering booster pack and ask for the exact contents of it with the proviso that if it doesn't hold truth, you will want to return it. Tell me how it goes ;-)

[Volbet]

I just want to make clear that I don't know anything about how this whole crate gambling business work, so feel free to correct my ignorant ass. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, if a business is build up solely around risk and chance, then that business is gambling. 

It doesn't matter what design the roulette has or what is being played on it, a game of roulette is still a game of chance and risk, making it gambling.  

 

25 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Using the above example, I buy them Lego things, or Pokémon cards, football cards, baseball cards, whatever, I get something tangible, something I can touch, hold, feel, use.

 

I buy a loot box I get a few flashing pixels on a screen. Does that really count as "a thing"? (Genuine question btw)

The counter argument to this would be that even with a digital transaction you're still getting a right to something; just like when you buy a physical item. 

Whether you're buying a car, a Lego figurine in a blindbag or a camo for a gun in CS:GO you're not only buying the product (or the pixels). You're buying the property rights to that product. 

So, while no physical transaction takes place in the buying/selling of digital crates, camos, models etc, there's a still a transaction of rights. One person has to give up their rights to a crate for you to gain the rights to that same crate. 

Therefore, you can equate the transaction of a physical item to the transaction of a physical one. 

To clarify the example a bit: Just because I chose to buy a game on Steam it doesn't mean that I own it any less than the person that bought it on a disc. 

 

Now, this is a piss poor argument, since it doesn't even touch on whether or not something is gambling. 

But since the whole physical vs. digital argument was bought into this I thought I might as well chip in. 

[Master Disaster]

2 minutes ago, Lathlaer said:

 

Go to a shop and ask for Magic the Gathering booster pack and ask for the exact contents of it with the proviso that if it doesn't hold truth, you will want to return it. Tell me how it goes ;-)

Things I buy from a shop are not covered under distance selling laws, things I buy digitally are. If they insist there selling us an item then distance selling law applies to it just as much as the mouse from Amazon or the toaster for eBay.

 

1 minute ago, Volbet said:

I just want to make clear that I don't know anything about how this whole crate gambling business work, so feel free to correct my ignorant ass. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, if a business is build up solely around risk and chance, then that business is gambling. 

It doesn't matter what design the roulette has or what is being played on it, a game of roulette is still a game of chance and risk, making it gambling.  

 

The counter argument to this would be that even with a digital transaction you're still getting a right to something; just like when you buy a physical item. 

Whether you're buying a car, a Lego figurine in a blindbag or a camo for a gun in CS:GO you're not only buying the product (or the pixels). You're buying the property rights to that product. 

So, while no physical transaction takes place in the buying/selling of digital crates, camos, models etc, there's a still a transaction of rights. One person has to give up their rights to a crate for you to gain the rights to that same crate. 

Therefore, you can equate the transaction of a physical item to the transaction of a physical one. 

To clarify the example a bit: Just because I chose to buy a game on Steam it doesn't mean that I own it any less than the person that bought it on a disc. 

 

Now, this is a piss poor argument, since it doesn't even touch on whether or not something is gambling. 

But since the whole physical vs. digital argument was bought into this I thought I might as well chip in. 

I think the physical vs digital discussion is as important as the gambling discussion.

[Lathlaer]

4 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Things I buy from a shop are not covered under distance selling laws, things I buy digitally are. If they insist there selling us an item then distance selling law applies to it just as much as the mouse from Amazon or the toaster for eBay.

And you can't buy said booster pack online with UPS shipement anywhere, can you?

[Morgan Everett]

It’s not gambling in the narrower sense required by law, no.