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FaceID is 2.5 years ahead of the competition

17 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

I would like to see the reasoning behind your statement of why its just better?

I think because the Intel RealSense camera is big and can’t fit in a smartphone form factor that’s why it’s mostly found in big tablets like the Surface Pro. Apple managed to miniaturize a similar technology into a smartphone with 5.8” screen size not to mention that all biometric data is stored securely. I don’t know where does Windows Hello stores biometric data if it’s in the TPM or just stored locally which can be dangerous. 

There is more that meets the eye
I see the soul that is inside

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tedny said:

So, Phone became useless and goes on recycling if it stolen, great. you losing not only underpower overprice phone, but everything

No, in other words it allows the phone(or any device for that matter) to be traced and retrieved/found. You seem to not understand the basics of sercurity on any device( be that; phone, laptop, desktop, iPod)

 

1 hour ago, hey_yo_ said:

While nothing is fool proof or 100% secure, iPhones have implemented file level encryption by default. To further secure the device, ten failed passcode attempts will trigger a secure wipe to deter brute force attacks considering that a four digit passcode only has 1 in 10,000 chances of being guessed. It strips off the encryption keys first then starts the wiping process, thus making the data inaccessible turning it as just white noise. 

 

With the case of Face/Touch ID, after five failed biometric readings will demand the passcode. Same goes for not unlocking an iPhone for 48 hours or after a reboot. Then if 10 failed passcode attempts happen again, it will securely delete the iPhone’s contents. Also, one can remotely wipe an iPhone with iCloud’s Find My iPhone feature. Even if an iPhone is not connected to the internet at the moment it’s stolen, one can remotely send a locate, lock, or wipe command to the stolen iPhone so once the iPhone connects to the internet and receives a wipe command, it will start a secure wipe and all of its contents can’t be recovered. 

 

Ya, I know this. I just was a bit lazy to type all of that out, as they don't seem to understand why any of that is implemented in the first place and thinks that all is lost. Also, the wipe function only happens if you enable it. I personally have that turned off and I don't use iCloud due to backing up to my computers directly (exc.find my iPhone).

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1 hour ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Is it really that hard to fool with a mask, assuming you have the right tools?

Yes, Hollywood mask makers were unable to beat FaceID so there is no way a criminal that lacks a production studio could. 

 

You went through a lot of trouble to demonstrate exactly why FaceID is more secure than TouchID. Lifting a fingerprint can be done by anyone. Making a better than Hollywood mask all just to unlock a phone that can be remote wiped is not the most accessible thing in the world. 

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2 minutes ago, Dylanc1500 said:

Ya, I know this. I just was a bit lazy to type all of that out, as they don't seem to understand why any of that is implemented in the first place and thinks that all is lost. Also, the wipe function only happens if you enable it. I personally have that turned off and I don't use iCloud due to backing up to my computers directly (exc.find my iPhone

I have find my iPhone enabled. Also, even in someone manages to steal an iPhone while it’s unlocked, they need to input the owner’s Apple ID to disable find my iPhone. 

There is more that meets the eye
I see the soul that is inside

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

f anything FaceID is at a disadvantage because of, again, size and power constraints.

Lol 

 

No

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6 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

I think because the Intel RealSense camera is big and can’t fit in a smartphone form factor that’s why it’s mostly found in big tablets like the Surface Pro. Apple managed to miniaturize a similar technology into a smartphone with 5.8” screen size not to mention that all biometric data is stored securely. I don’t know where does Windows Hello stores biometric data if it’s in the TPM or just stored locally which can be dangerous. 

So because its smaller its better? Also you like that Apple stores it locally, but if Windows does then is a security issue?

 

Sorry this is not making any logical sense to me. 

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1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

So because its smaller its better?

Smaller usually means more advanced.

 

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

but if Windows does then is a security issue?

Securing a WindowsPC from threats is significantly harder than securing an iPhone and its secure enclave. 

 

So sorry, there isn’t a double standard, just one that is very hard for PCs to achieve. 

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1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

So because its smaller its better? Also you like that Apple stores it locally, but if Windows does then is a security issue?

 

Sorry this is not making any logical sense to me. 

Apple stores on an always encrypted chip that us excessively hard to access with proper tools.

Windows solutions might just store the data in a hidden folder that might not be encrypted at all.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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9 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

So because its smaller its better? Also you like that Apple stores it locally, but if Windows does then is a security issue?

 

Sorry this is not making any logical sense to me. 

I probably should rephrase it. The iPhone does store it locally but not in the local storage where the pictures go or where third party apps get installed but a fingerprint/face scan is turned into a math expression and stored in the secure enclave coprocessor where it is encrypted and tucked away from the rest of the system and that fingerprint/face scan is later deleted. I don’t know where Microsoft is storing all of that biometric data in Windows Hello if it’s in the TPM module or the local storage.

 

That’s all I’m saying. 

There is more that meets the eye
I see the soul that is inside

 

 

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Just now, DrMacintosh said:

Smaller usually means more advanced.

 

The original statement was its more secure than windows hello....with a response of because its smaller. Which is pure BS

 

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

Securing a WindowsPC from threats is significantly harder than securing an iPhone and its secure enclave. 

 

So sorry, there isn’t a double standard, just one that is very hard for PCs to achieve

Doesnt matter about security of the platform. Either way the information is encrypted and would be useless if stolen. 

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10 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

That’s not what the security ananlyst were looking at here. 

 

If Apples stats were to be believed, getting a duplicate fingerprint is 1:50,000 while getting a duplicate face is about 1:1,000,000

 

So pure numbers it’s already significantly more secure. Not to mention you can’t fool FaceID by lifting a fingerprint off a glass or by making a mask or with a photo. 

 

Speed and convenience might have a solid argument in favor of TouchID, but the way I see it, I’m looking at my phone a lot, especially when it’s on a desk and I’m not touching it. Why not take advantage of that? 

Let's be real, the only reason for any of this tech is for speed and convenience.  Holding a button or looking at your phone are a lot easier than typing in a passcode, but let's not fool ourselves - they're both a lot less secure.

 

You said the face ID was 1 in a million... well lets look at how secure a few kinds of passwords are:

  • 4 character code including lowercase letters and numbers: 1 in 1,679,616 (over 67% better than face ID)
  • 5 character code including only lower case letters: 1 in 11,881,376 (over 11.8x as good as Face ID)
  • 6 character code including only numbers 1 in 1,000,000 (as good as face ID, and can't be tricked by a twin)
  • 4 character code including upper case, lower case, numbers, and common punctuation: 1 in 78,074,896 (78x better than Face ID)

Now obviously like I said, face ID is far more convenient, particularly compared to the last one, but this is just a sampling of the (at least in the case of the first 3) very short and easy to type passwords that can easily outmatch it.  This isn't anything against Apple either - as you've said, they're actually leading the market in this.  I just felt like pointing out that these technologies are no where near as good as even laughably bad passwords is long over due.

 

Edit: Actually, I want to add a few more samples to really drive the point home for everyone.

  • an 8 character code including only lower case letters.  This is something most of us would laugh at as being hilariously insecure.  Well guess what, it's 1 in 208,827,064,576.  That's over 208,000x better than Face ID.  That's 5 orders of magnitude.  It's absolutely huge.  Let me put it another way: This compared to face ID is like face ID compared to a 1 in 5 chance O.o
  • a 12 character code including lower case, upper case, and numbers: 1 in 3,226,266,762,397,899,821,056, or 3.22 x 1021.  That's so insanely massive that I don't think I can even put it in easy to comprehend terms.
Edited by Ryan_Vickers
added more samples

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3 hours ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

Am I the only one who'd much rather just put in a passcode?

Yes, yes you are.

I used to be quite active here.

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Am I the only one that is happy about iPhone X because all the old models got a price drop? 

 

I don't see the reason using top of the line iPhone... cos, you know, the rest of them aren't that far behind. 

If it is not broken, let's fix till it is. 

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14 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

You said the face ID was 1 in a million... well lets look at how secure a few kinds of passwords are:

  • 4 character code including lowercase letters and numbers: 1 in 1,679,616 (over 67% better than face ID)
  • 5 character code including only lower case letters: 1 in 11,881,376 (over 11.8x as good as Face ID)
  • 6 character code including only numbers 1 in 1,000,000 (as good as face ID, and can't be tricked by a twin)
  • 4 character code including upper case, lower case, numbers, and common punctuation: 1 in 78,074,896 (78x better than Face ID)

Those odds are significantly reduced if people use the same combination of characters, letters, and numbers. I don't know what the sample size is for those common password lists, but it wouldn't surprise me if you can log in to a non trivial amount of accounts using "123456"

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31 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Yes, Hollywood mask makers were unable to beat FaceID so there is no way a criminal that lacks a production studio could. 

 

You went through a lot of trouble to demonstrate exactly why FaceID is more secure than TouchID. Lifting a fingerprint can be done by anyone. Making a better than Hollywood mask all just to unlock a phone that can be remote wiped is not the most accessible thing in the world. 

Building a Hollywood mask and building a biometric mask are very different though. It's not about how it looks, so much as it's physical properties (reflection and radiance).

 

It's the equivalent of saying dermatologists couldn't fool TouchID. Saying Hollywood mask makers couldnt beat it says absolutely nothing about the security of the thing, because they don't make products designed for breaking biometrics.

 

42 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Lol 

 

No

You're really going to sit here and say that a *much* smaller ir camera with a *much* smaller ir dot generator isn't going to be a constraint on their design? That powering it off a tiny 2715mAh battery, and trying to do it real-time isn't going to put power constraints on it?

 

Be realistic here. 

 

I get that it doesn't need the same range as Realsense has and that helps them shave off some power budget, but that alone isn't a miracle solution.

 

24 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Windows solutions might just store the data in a hidden folder that might not be encrypted at all.

https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-windows-hello-and-privacy

 

Windows stores Windows Hello biometrics in an encrypted format, with the encryption key backed by the TPM to prevent data tampering or theft. 

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17 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Those odds are significantly reduced if people use the same combination of characters, letters, and numbers.

But if people choose randomly, the odds of that happening are the same as I gave for guessing it.  Ie, extremely low.

17 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

I don't know what the sample size is for those common password lists, but it wouldn't surprise me if you can log in to a non trivial amount of accounts using "123456"

You're probably right xD or, if not that, then some other pattern with the numbers, like a spiral, zig-zag, etc.  But people will always do that, it's not a fault with the method of passwords.

 

I see where you're going with this though... despite the math, this might actually be a step up for those too lazy and foolish to use passwords correctly, and that's a good point actually.

 

For the rest of us though (ie, everyone on a tech forum, which I would hope knows how to not use 123456), I think it's an interesting thing to point out.

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28 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

You said the face ID was 1 in a million... well lets look at how secure a few kinds of passwords are:

  • 4 character code including lowercase letters and numbers: 1 in 1,679,616 (over 67% better than face ID)
  • 5 character code including only lower case letters: 1 in 11,881,376 (over 11.8x as good as Face ID)
  • 6 character code including only numbers 1 in 1,000,000 (as good as face ID, and can't be tricked by a twin)
  • 4 character code including upper case, lower case, numbers, and common punctuation: 1 in 78,074,896 (78x better than Face ID)

Dont forget one of the biggest upsides of passwords....they can be changed once stolen. Something you cant do with biometrics. 

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Just now, mynameisjuan said:

Dont forget one of the biggest upsides of passwords....they can be changed once stolen. Something you cant do with biometrics. 

Yes that's true.  That said, I don't know how likely that is with face ID.  It's still new so it remains to be seen how good this is in "the real world" but if it can't be fooled by fakes easily then this wouldn't really be a concern.

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I've seen a lot of people saying you shouldn't use Face ID because police will force you to unlock your phone. 

or something like that. 

If it is not broken, let's fix till it is. 

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31 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:
  • 4 character code including lowercase letters and numbers: 1 in 1,679,616 (over 67% better than face ID)
  • 5 character code including only lower case letters: 1 in 11,881,376 (over 11.8x as good as Face ID)
  • 6 character code including only numbers 1 in 1,000,000 (as good as face ID, and can't be tricked by a twin)
  • 4 character code including upper case, lower case, numbers, and common punctuation: 1 in 78,074,896 (78x better than Face ID)

These types of analysis ignore easily guessable passcodes and patterns. FaceID and TouchID eliminate those risks. 

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Just now, DrMacintosh said:

These types of analysis ignore easily guessable passcodes and patterns. FaceID and TouchID eliminate those risks. 

from above

15 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

[...]But people will always do that, it's not a fault with the method of passwords.

 

I see where you're going with this though... despite the math, this might actually be a step up for those too lazy and foolish to use passwords correctly, and that's a good point actually.

 

For the rest of us though (ie, everyone on a tech forum, which I would hope knows how to not use 123456), I think it's an interesting thing to point out.

 

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10 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Everyone I knew with an S5 hated the finger print sensor ? most of them admitted how much better Apples implementation of it was on the iPhone 5s. Man those were the days.....

S5 was my most hated phone Ugh that finger print and the "Waterproofing" such bad implementations. Also The back dimples and side chrome Looked terrible. The S4 was a great phone at launch and it felt like they were like hey the S3 & 4 sold boat loads lets Milk this year Who cares. Then S6 was so much nicer fingerprint and build. but missing the Waterproof & SD card till S7 

 

Phones ive had

Iphone 3g  4 & 5 

S4,S5,S6 S7

Note 3

LG G3

HTC M8

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17 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Building a Hollywood mask and building a biometric mask are very different though. It's not about how it looks, so much as it's physical properties (reflection and radiance).

And you think your local phone thief is going to make those? 

 

18 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

You're really going to sit here and say that a *much* smaller ir camera with a *much* smaller ir dot generator isn't going to be a constraint on their design? That powering it off a tiny 2715mAh battery, and trying to do it real-time isn't going to put power constraints on it?

Yes. The A11 Bionic and the Neural Engine aren't going to give a crap about anything. Apple overpowers their phones for good reason. 

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8 minutes ago, anthonyjc2010 said:

So I tried using an iPhone 6S Plus for a week or so recently, and 9/10 times TouchID just didn't work. I redid my thumbprint at least fifteen times. I went back to my 6P and the fingerprint sensor worked flawlessly.

You probably registered your finger poorly the first time. My 6s Plus only fails to register my fingerprints after a swim or a heavy workout and I am sweaty. Otherwise it always works. 

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