Headphone + amp for 600$

[SSL]

28 minutes ago, JohnnyAlmi said:

Thanks! One more to compare, ATH-R70x?

 

Inferior version of the HD 650 with less smooth treble.

[seduce_me]

20 hours ago, The_Gingineer said:

At your budget I think you should be spending way more on headphones than Amp/DAC. I'd probably allocate 100 bucks for the amp and dac.

 

The difference between a 100 dollar amp/dac and a 300 dollar might be audible, but it won't be as big an improvement as a going up from 300 dollar head phones to 500 dollar headphones.

 

Personally I want all my audio gear to be flat except for speakers and headphones (ie I don't go for tube pre amps or vintage gear). I guarantee you can find an amp/DAC that's within half a dB from 20 Hz to 20 KHz and can drive whatever headphones you want. Good luck noticing a difference beyond that in a double blind test.

 

The Micca OriGen looks like a good choice for cans under 600 Ohms.

 

Pair that with Sennheiser's HD 700s (currently 500 on amazon, at least in US) and you will be very pleased with the results.

 

 

Hell of a deal really.

That's the shittiest recommendation I've heard in a while. Enjoy your ear-piercing treble with a side of tinnitus. And yes, DAC/Amps make a difference, but it's wiser to spend on a headphone you like first. 

[The_Gingineer]

55 minutes ago, seduce_me said:

Enjoy your ear-piercing treble with a side of tinnitus.

Yeah? Man, I've been thinking about giving tinnitus a shot. I feel like my music has really been missing that high end sparkle.

 

Do you think the HD700's would be a cost effective alternative to live concerts?

[JohnnyAlmi]

I'll order HD650 these days and I think I'll stretch a bit and get Vali 2 + Modi Multibit immediately

[spwath]

23 minutes ago, JohnnyAlmi said:

I'll order HD650 these days and I think I'll stretch a bit and get Vali 2 + Modi Multibit immediately

  that will be a great starting set up. Perfect  for getting into (and staying in) audio.

[KaminKevCrew]

On 8/14/2017 at 3:57 PM, Marshnt said:

Any DAC on the circuit level had a amp in it and yes i know what a combo unit is.

Sure, a fixed output amp to Line level, which is not enough to drive headphones, or speakers. Seriously, where are you going with this? 

 

The fact is that you were wrong. Why is that so difficult to admit, and move on?

[Marshnt]

On 8/16/2017 at 3:09 PM, KaminKevCrew said:

Sure, a fixed output amp to Line level, which is not enough to drive headphones, or speakers. Seriously, where are you going with this? 

 

The fact is that you were wrong. Why is that so difficult to admit, and move on?

Facepalm, nothing i have said is incorrect and I have only clarified my statements with facts. Don't be a troll.

[spwath]

4 hours ago, Marshnt said:

Facepalm, nothing i have said is incorrect and I have only clarified my statements with facts. Don't be a troll.

 I'm sorry, but it just was incorrect. That's all there is to it.

 you can't run headphones from a dac. That's why they don't put headphone ports on them.

[Dackzy]

9 hours ago, Marshnt said:

Facepalm, nothing i have said is incorrect and I have only clarified my statements with facts. Don't be a troll.

Nope, basically everything you have said is incorrect. I am not sure where you are getting this very incorrect information from.

If you don't see a headphone out, then there isn't a headphone amp in it. It is really that simple. A DAC has a fixed line output.

 

Also how do you exactly plan to hook up the headphones to a DAC? You would need to get a male stereo RCA to female TRS adaptor.

 

I think you are calling/mixing up a combo for a DAC or something like that. 

 

You can use an amp without a DAC, but you cannot use a DAC without an amp.

[SniphzR]

He400i + Schiit stack v2/asgard 2 (if u dont need DAC)

[Wolf_Lbh]

If you need a dac and amp just get a schiit fulla 2, tbh I would get one anyways because unless you get a usb headphone you will need a dac and considering it costs $100 and is super high quality you might as well pick it up in case you ever do need an amp. I would suggest avoiding tube amps because of the limited lifespan and cost, not to mention if you are fanatical about tube amp sound quality replication software has come a long way in mimicking that.

As for what headphones to get, right now what is on my radar the most would be the HiFiMan HE4XX for $170 on massdrop. So far we have only heard from the people that got early review samples and they say they sound about as good as the $300 model but we do know that they are HiFiMan, Planar Magnetic, have the low impedance driver so you can run them without an amp, weigh 13 ounces, only cost $170, and are Massdrop exclusives so you need to get them while the sale is going on, wait, or from a reseller on ebay.

That was enough info for me to order them. Also this should go without saying but they are OPEN backed.

[spwath]

10 hours ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

If you need a dac and amp just get a schiit fulla 2, tbh I would get one anyways because unless you get a usb headphone you will need a dac and considering it costs $100 and is super high quality you might as well pick it up in case you ever do need an amp. I would suggest avoiding tube amps because of the limited lifespan and cost, not to mention if you are fanatical about tube amp sound quality replication software has come a long way in mimicking that.

As for what headphones to get, right now what is on my radar the most would be the HiFiMan HE4XX for $170 on massdrop. So far we have only heard from the people that got early review samples and they say they sound about as good as the $300 model but we do know that they are HiFiMan, Planar Magnetic, have the low impedance driver so you can run them without an amp, weigh 13 ounces, only cost $170, and are Massdrop exclusives so you need to get them while the sale is going on, wait, or from a reseller on ebay.

That was enough info for me to order them. Also this should go without saying but they are OPEN backed.

 stop there.

 tube lifespan is more than long enough for years of use. Cost,  tube amps can be more expensive, but they can be cheaper too. Software can NOT replicate a tube amp. The idea of a tube amp is not to color the sound (which software could do), but to get all the benefits associated with tubes, which i won't go into now.

 

 

 also, planars are  notoriously hard to drive. Low impedance, but low sensitivity (the more important factor) too.

[Wolf_Lbh]

1 minute ago, spwath said:

 stop there.

 tube lifespan is more than long enough for years of use. Cost,  tube amps can be more expensive, but they can be cheaper too. Software can NOT replicate a tube amp. The idea of a tube amp is not to color the sound (which software could do), but to get all the benefits associated with tubes, which i won't go into now.

 

 

 also, planars are  notoriously hard to drive. Low impedance, but low sensitivity (the more important factor) too.

Meh, not excited about tubes. Simply not worth it. And software can replicate many aspects of the coloring tube amps have to offer. As for the other benefits tubes offer I consider the longevity of a decently expensive quality product to be of higher importance.

Planars being notoriously hard to drive is what makes the fact that these are not so much more impressive. They are literally using brand new technology to make them driveable by anything that has a headphone port on it.

[spwath]

2 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

Meh, not excited about tubes. Simply not worth it. And software can replicate many aspects of the coloring tube amps have to offer. As for the other benefits tubes offer I consider the longevity of a decently expensive quality product to be of higher importance.

Planars being notoriously hard to drive is what makes the fact that these are not so much more impressive. They are literally using brand new technology to make them driveable by anything that has a headphone port on it.

i know software can color like tubes. But a good tube amp should color as little as possible, like solid state. Longevity isn't an issue.  you can run it for years. When tube finally goes, new one is like $20.

 

 brand new tech? I don't buy it.

[Wolf_Lbh]

2 minutes ago, spwath said:

i know software can color like tubes. But a good tube amp should color as little as possible, like solid state. Longevity isn't an issue.  you can run it for years. When tube finally goes, new one is like $20.

 

 brand new tech? I don't buy it.

Not if the tube amp is expensive. Most of the tube amps people freak out about are hundreds if not thousands of dollars. If I'm going to invest that kind of money into something (and op said he would be using it for hours each day) I'm going to want it to last a lifetime.

And how can you not buy it? The info about it is right on the product page. Unless you are trying to say HiFiMan made all their other headphones legit just so they could pull off this amazing scam of selling a run limited to 3,750 units for $170 on massdrop. Because in terms of scams ripping off so few people for such a low profit margin after years of building credibility in the audio community would be a laughable concept.

[spwath]

5 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

Not if the tube amp is expensive. Most of the tube amps people freak out about are hundreds if not thousands of dollars. If I'm going to invest that kind of money into something (and op said he would be using it for hours each day) I'm going to want it to last a lifetime.

And how can you not buy it? The info about it is right on the product page. Unless you are trying to say HiFiMan made all their other headphones legit just so they could pull off this amazing scam of selling a run limited to 3,750 units for $170 on massdrop. Because in terms of scams ripping off so few people for such a low profit margin after years of building credibility in the audio community would be a laughable concept.

 Valhalla 2 is a great tube amp. New set of tubes, $20. There is a reason tube amps are so popular.

 

 the massdrop Hifiman is no doubt a great deal. But not easy to drive.

[Wolf_Lbh]

6 minutes ago, spwath said:

 Valhalla 2 is a great tube amp. New set of tubes, $20. There is a reason tube amps are so popular.

 

 the massdrop Hifiman is no doubt a great deal. But not easy to drive.

$20 for a new set of tubes now. But in 5-10 years when the tubes die and that model has been discontinued? Good luck. Also it is $350. I would rather just spend $100 on their Fulla 2 dac/amp combo and have it last considerably longer, then just upgrade to whatever the modern version of it is when/if it ever fails. Given the technology curve in that period of time a dac/amp combo worth hundreds of dollars today should fall into the $100 price range by then, assuming some new revolutionary tech doesn't come out in that time.

And they are easy to drive. The product page clearly lists their specs. Since you can't be bothered to do your own research before making false claims I'll help you out to end this conversation:
Sensitivity: 93 dB
Impedance: 35 ohms

And they even show them being driven by a cell phone on the product page. If you are going to say anything else please do you own research before wasting my time or I won't bother responding.

[seduce_me]

It's all subjective. Some people prefer the presentation of tubes. 

[spwath]

13 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

$20 for a new set of tubes now. But in 5-10 years when the tubes die and that model has been discontinued? Good luck. Also it is $350. I would rather just spend $100 on their Fulla 2 dac/amp combo and have it last considerably longer, then just upgrade to whatever the modern version of it is when/if it ever fails. Given the technology curve in that period of time a dac/amp combo worth hundreds of dollars today should fall into the $100 price range by then, assuming some new revolutionary tech doesn't come out in that time.

And they are easy to drive. The product page clearly lists their specs. Since you can't be bothered to do your own research before making false claims I'll help you out to end this conversation:
Sensitivity: 93 dB
Impedance: 35 ohms

And they even show them being driven by a cell phone on the product page. If you are going to say anything else please do you own research before wasting my time or I won't bother responding.

 they are tubes. Can be found on eBay easily for cheap. Also, amplifier tech really hasn't changed much. A good amp from 10 years ago will still be good now, and retain value.

 

a fulla 2 won't last considerably  longer than a Valhalla. And the Valhalla will sound a lot better. And again, tubes are cheap and easy to find.

 

[Wolf_Lbh]

1 hour ago, spwath said:

 they are tubes. Can be found on eBay easily for cheap. Also, amplifier tech really hasn't changed much. A good amp from 10 years ago will still be good now, and retain value.

 

a fulla 2 won't last considerably  longer than a Valhalla. And the Valhalla will sound a lot better. And again, tubes are cheap and easy to find.

 

Cheap tubes that fit that model? When it probably won't be in production when it dies and Schiit itself as a company could be gone for all we know? That's a headache and a half and could easily be obnoxiously expensive and a huge effort to find replacement parts for something that costs about 4 times as much as a non-tube amp, which will absolutely last longer than the finite lifespan of a tube amp. And the Valhalla does not even sound better, it sounds different, which some people don't even like. Not to mention buying used tubes is a nightmare and a half given how you never really know what kind of lifespan they have remaining and can be a nightmare to ship used in the mail.

And if you drop the fulla 2? It's fine, the thing is damn metal block. Drop, bump, or look at a tube amp the wrong way? RIP

Hard pass on tube amps.

[Dackzy]

3 hours ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

And they are easy to drive. The product page clearly lists their specs. Since you can't be bothered to do your own research before making false claims I'll help you out to end this conversation:
Sensitivity: 93 dB
Impedance: 35 ohms

And they even show them being driven by a cell phone on the product page. If you are going to say anything else please do you own research before wasting my time or I won't bother responding.

93dB is actually pretty low, which means hard to drive. Your typical easy to drive headphone would have maybe 108dB rating and just going down or up by let's say 3dB will make the power required go up or down by quite a bit.

The ohm rating can fuck off,  since it doesn't really mean anything, it is very limited how much it changes the power needed, sure a lot of amps have more power at 32 ohm than 300 ohm, but there are also quite a lot of amps with more power at 300 ohm than 32 ohm. 

 

Also never trust the product advertising pictures, these pictures are often just enough truth in them to not be open for a lawsuit,  but damn they sugarcoat things...

You can probably get them to a listen able volume with some phones, but who in their right mind would ever use a open headphone on the go?

[spwath]

8 hours ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

Cheap tubes that fit that model? When it probably won't be in production when it dies and Schiit itself as a company could be gone for all we know? That's a headache and a half and could easily be obnoxiously expensive and a huge effort to find replacement parts for something that costs about 4 times as much as a non-tube amp, which will absolutely last longer than the finite lifespan of a tube amp. And the Valhalla does not even sound better, it sounds different, which some people don't even like. Not to mention buying used tubes is a nightmare and a half given how you never really know what kind of lifespan they have remaining and can be a nightmare to ship used in the mail.

And if you drop the fulla 2? It's fine, the thing is damn metal block. Drop, bump, or look at a tube amp the wrong way? RIP

Hard pass on tube amps.

 yes. Schiit doesn't make the tubes. They are a standard tube used in many other amps. Easy to find.

 

 sure, can't drop tube amp, but it's large and  sits on desk, hard to drop.

[KaminKevCrew]

On 8/19/2017 at 8:27 PM, Wolf_Lbh said:

Not if the tube amp is expensive. Most of the tube amps people freak out about are hundreds if not thousands of dollars. If I'm going to invest that kind of money into something (and op said he would be using it for hours each day) I'm going to want it to last a lifetime.

And how can you not buy it? The info about it is right on the product page. Unless you are trying to say HiFiMan made all their other headphones legit just so they could pull off this amazing scam of selling a run limited to 3,750 units for $170 on massdrop. Because in terms of scams ripping off so few people for such a low profit margin after years of building credibility in the audio community would be a laughable concept.

There are also many solid state DACs and amps that cost thousands of dollars. You clearly know very little about amps... I mean, honestly, tubes are all pretty standardized. There are a few types of tubes that are used in amps, and they're ALL easy to find on ebay or other online sources. Tubes are not rare, and they are NOT specific to a single company.

 

I also don't buy that they are actually using brand new technology. New tech doesn't get developed for low end stuff. It gets developed on high end stuff, and then in trickles down. That's how R&D works. Not to mention, you say it's a "limited run" but I'm pretty sure we all know that's a load of crap. Nobody does special edition headphones for massdrop and sells them once. These will be back, and I'm sure they'll end up selling tens of thousands of them, at the very least.

On 8/19/2017 at 8:45 PM, Wolf_Lbh said:

$20 for a new set of tubes now. But in 5-10 years when the tubes die and that model has been discontinued? Good luck. Also it is $350. I would rather just spend $100 on their Fulla 2 dac/amp combo and have it last considerably longer, then just upgrade to whatever the modern version of it is when/if it ever fails. Given the technology curve in that period of time a dac/amp combo worth hundreds of dollars today should fall into the $100 price range by then, assuming some new revolutionary tech doesn't come out in that time.

And they are easy to drive. The product page clearly lists their specs. Since you can't be bothered to do your own research before making false claims I'll help you out to end this conversation:
Sensitivity: 93 dB
Impedance: 35 ohms

And they even show them being driven by a cell phone on the product page. If you are going to say anything else please do you own research before wasting my time or I won't bother responding.

In 5-10 years, that same set of tubes will still cost $20. You clearly don't understand the prevalence of tubes. They were manufactured en mass back in the day. There are hundreds of millions of the things just lying around, if not billions. We don't need to be worried about tube shortages for a very long time yet. Additionally, Audio doesn't fall in value the way that cars do. There are speakers out there from the 80s that are worth as much or more than they were when they were sold new. Same with DACs, and amps. Audio tends to stay pretty high value. Hell, a pair of HD650s that have been through 5 owners over the course of years could still reasonably be worth $250, easily, and they're a $350-ish headphone new.

 

If you think that 93dB (either per volt, or per mW, and by the way, why the hell don't they tell you which it is?) is sensitive, you're having a complete laugh. Especially for open back headphones that you're planning to run outside. Clearly, you're the one here who doesn't bother to do research, because you don't know what would typically be considered a sensitive headphone, let alone one that's able to play off a phone well.

 

They don't actually show them being driven by shit. They have a model holding a cell phone, who is also wearing the headphones. I doubt they were even actually listening to anything at the time the photo was being taken. Just because they *can* be run off a phone (let's be real - you *can* run an HE-6 off a cell phone) doesn't mean it will be loud enough, or even sound good.

[Wolf_Lbh]

1 hour ago, KaminKevCrew said:

There are also many solid state DACs and amps that cost thousands of dollars. You clearly know very little about amps... I mean, honestly, tubes are all pretty standardized. There are a few types of tubes that are used in amps, and they're ALL easy to find on ebay or other online sources. Tubes are not rare, and they are NOT specific to a single company.

 

I also don't buy that they are actually using brand new technology. New tech doesn't get developed for low end stuff. It gets developed on high end stuff, and then in trickles down. That's how R&D works. Not to mention, you say it's a "limited run" but I'm pretty sure we all know that's a load of crap. Nobody does special edition headphones for massdrop and sells them once. These will be back, and I'm sure they'll end up selling tens of thousands of them, at the very least.

In 5-10 years, that same set of tubes will still cost $20. You clearly don't understand the prevalence of tubes. They were manufactured en mass back in the day. There are hundreds of millions of the things just lying around, if not billions. We don't need to be worried about tube shortages for a very long time yet. Additionally, Audio doesn't fall in value the way that cars do. There are speakers out there from the 80s that are worth as much or more than they were when they were sold new. Same with DACs, and amps. Audio tends to stay pretty high value. Hell, a pair of HD650s that have been through 5 owners over the course of years could still reasonably be worth $250, easily, and they're a $350-ish headphone new.

 

If you think that 93dB (either per volt, or per mW, and by the way, why the hell don't they tell you which it is?) is sensitive, you're having a complete laugh. Especially for open back headphones that you're planning to run outside. Clearly, you're the one here who doesn't bother to do research, because you don't know what would typically be considered a sensitive headphone, let alone one that's able to play off a phone well.

 

They don't actually show them being driven by shit. They have a model holding a cell phone, who is also wearing the headphones. I doubt they were even actually listening to anything at the time the photo was being taken. Just because they *can* be run off a phone (let's be real - you *can* run an HE-6 off a cell phone) doesn't mean it will be loud enough, or even sound good.

You clearly know very little about my post, even though you quoted it... interesting. If you had read it before responding you might have noticed the dac/amp I suggested did in fact cost $100 and not thousands...

If you don't want to believe what HiFiMan is claiming about the technology used in their headphones (that anyone can buy and take apart) then feel free to file a lawsuit against them (very shady company those HiFiMan guys are) and let me know how that goes.

I never said this would be a one time drop... once again you know very little about the post you quoted. I said they were a massdrop exclusive and would only be available when massdrop sells them (which isn't 24/7, it will be once every couple months, at best), or from a scalper/person that no longer wants theirs on ebay.

Those tubes don't cost $20 TODAY. The tubes for the model that was talked about cost $40, on top of a $350 price tag... (I did my research unlike you)

I never said it would be a good idea to run them outside, they're open headphones for god's sake. What I said was that you could run them off a cellphone, and they provide a picture of them being used as such. I will admit that 93 is not a low enough number to be run off every device but many daps won't have a problem with that. I agree it is better to have a dac/amp just in case, and will you look at that? I seem to have suggested one!

Now please stop wasting my time. I have better things to do that have a back and forth with someone that can't bother to do their own research, or even read.

[KaminKevCrew]

1 hour ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

You clearly know very little about my post, even though you quoted it... interesting. If you had read it before responding you might have noticed the dac/amp I suggested did in fact cost $100 and not thousands...

If you don't want to believe what HiFiMan is claiming about the technology used in their headphones (that anyone can buy and take apart) then feel free to file a lawsuit against them (very shady company those HiFiMan guys are) and let me know how that goes.

I never said this would be a one time drop... once again you know very little about the post you quoted. I said they were a massdrop exclusive and would only be available when massdrop sells them (which isn't 24/7, it will be once every couple months, at best), or from a scalper/person that no longer wants theirs on ebay.

Those tubes don't cost $20 TODAY. The tubes for the model that was talked about cost $40, on top of a $350 price tag... (I did my research unlike you)

I never said it would be a good idea to run them outside, they're open headphones for god's sake. What I said was that you could run them off a cellphone, and they provide a picture of them being used as such. I will admit that 93 is not a low enough number to be run off every device but many daps won't have a problem with that. I agree it is better to have a dac/amp just in case, and will you look at that? I seem to have suggested one!

Now please stop wasting my time. I have better things to do that have a back and forth with someone that can't bother to do their own research, or even read.

I'm very well aware of how much the Fulla 2 costs. Evidently, you're not aware of the fact that Schiit themselves sell a hybrid tube amp at $169 (The Vali 2 which - had you paid attention - you would realize is the amp that was previously mentioned), which is very reasonable for a solid state amp, let alone a very good hybrid tube amp. Also, from Schiit themselves, the single tube you need for the Vali 2 is $10, or $20 for a pair to run on something like the Lyr 2. So yeah, those tube absolutely do cost $20 today. 

 

You clearly didn't understand my point about the Massdrop headphones - They aren't doing a limited run of 3,750 headphones. They're producing that many right now, and soon you'll be able to buy more. They are not a limited product - at all. After this first drop, you'll almost always be able to find them on second hand sites.

 

Upon *actually* reading the Massdrop article (something that you apparently failed to do...), Hifiman hasn't put any new technology into these headphones, as per the page on Massdrop... regardless, companies like to pull shenanigans all the time - I was in Best Buy the other day, and a pair of Audio Technica headphones said that they had drivers that were specially designed to accept and reproduce a digital signal - except that's impossible. It's all marketing malarkey in the first place, and it happens all the time. It's not blatant false advertising.

 

Claiming that you didn't say it was a good idea to run them on a cell phone is true, in a pedantic sense, but it's also a complete cop-out. By mentioning it, you implied that it would be a good idea - which isn't the case. 

 

Additionally, when you say that 93 isn't a low enough number, you're clearly not aware of how any of this works - you need a higher number for the headphones to be loud enough for something like a cell phone.

 

Just to clarify something here - the only person whose time I'm wasting here is my own. You're not required by anyone to reply to me, nor are you required to do anything on this forum at all. That's entirely your choice. I choose to reply to you because you're wrong on a couple of points, and I also choose to reply because, in my own personal opinion, you are wrong. A forum (as per the definition of the word) is a place for discussion on a subject, and the exchange of opinion. That's all I'm doing here. I don't know you. I've never met you. So how on Earth would I go about wasting your time? That simply isn't possible.