Coffee Lake to have similar TIM as KabyLake?

[AnonymousGuy]

17 minutes ago, themctipers said:

when will intel run out of their expired mayo paste?

 

at least solder the K series and the HEDT, people who buy those want good temps and cverclock, and won't keep their computers for a decade unlike OEM machines.

Real enthusiasts delid.

[themctipers]

Just now, AnonymousGuy said:

Real enthusiasts delid.

rather not thanks

[Coaxialgamer]

3 hours ago, zMeul said:

except it's not the TIM that is the problem, it's the z height between the die and the IHS

but, no matter how many times this is told and repeated, here, on Anand and everywhere else ... you blame the TIM 

Except that isn't entirely true. Just look at devil's canyon vs haswell OG for proof of that. Z height did not change, yet there were drastic improvements to cooling with the new TIM. 

 

Both of those factors are responsible for the poor thermals present on kaby, z height isn't the only thing to blame. 

 

[MageTank]

4 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Real enthusiasts delid.

Real enthusiasts prefer solder. One does not simply put liquid metal under subzero, lol. There is a reason they remove their CLU and use Kryonaut or Kingpin Smurf-paste when doing subzero. LM flakes out under extreme cold.

 

Either way, soldering a die that small has been said to cause issues with longevity (more likely to form voids close enough to crack the die): http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

 

However, they did solder CPU's with even smaller dies back in the day, so I don't really understand the physics behind it, but that is the excuse they are going with.

 

4 minutes ago, Coaxialgamer said:

Except that isn't entirely true. Just look at devil's canyon vs haswell OG for proof of that. Z height did not change, yet there were drastic improvements to cooling with the new TIM. 

 

Both of those factors are responsible for the poor thermals present on kaby, z height isn't the only thing to blame. 

 

Do we have any evidence that the TIM used on Kaby, changed from that used on Haswell DC or Skylake? Also, the IHS is thicker on Skylake/Kaby than what it was on Haswell (DC). I do not know if this will impact the results if any, but it should be noted: http://www.anandtech.com/show/9505/skylake-cpu-package-analysis

Quote

So why are we talking about removing the heatspreader? Back with Haswell (as well as Ivy Bridge to a degree), it was discovered that the thermal interface material between the silicon die and the heatspreader was both an insufficient amount and lower quality than previous generations, as well as the heatspreader being far away from the CPU due to the black adhesive, causing more air bubbles and poorer heat transfer than is optimal. For a stock processor, this difference has little effect to the use of the system, but for overclockers it meant that they were more thermally limited than silicon limited with their overclocking.

They go on to say that Splave said the paste on Skylake was worse (though, hard to say without testing) and that they didn't use enough on the die to make up for the added thickness of the IHS. IF this is indeed the trend that led to Kaby's high temperatures, it's still a fault if the application process, and not the paste itself. Not using enough paste isn't a good enough reason to call the paste itself bad. Now if splave found out the exact blend of paste that they used, and tested with an adequate amount of it and concluded it was bad, I would certainly believe him. I just don't see him doing that, nor do I see any evidence of him having done that. 

[Shakaza]

29 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Real enthusiasts delid.

Mmmmm, no true scotsman. Always love that fallacy.

[zMeul]

21 hours ago, Coaxialgamer said:

Except that isn't entirely true. Just look at devil's canyon vs haswell OG for proof of that. Z height did not change, yet there were drastic improvements to cooling with the new TIM. 

 

Both of those factors are responsible for the poor thermals present on kaby, z height isn't the only thing to blame. 

except I'm not talking about old CPUs

I'm talking about Skylake and Kaby - people have delided these CPUs and used the same TIM while removing the IHS sealant thus reducing z height

there was a whole thread about this stuff on Anand's forums - there was also a separate thread on why soldering the desktop oriented parts isn't going to happen anytime soon

[mrthuvi]

On 8/1/2017 at 3:39 AM, themctipers said:

when will intel run out of their expired mayo paste?

 

at least solder the K series and the HEDT, people who buy those want good temps and cverclock, and won't keep their computers for a decade unlike OEM machines.

For mainstream, the K series is binned after attaching the IHS so unless they solder the entire line up, it won't happen.

 

But the hedt lineup should be 100% soldered anyway imo.

 

The problem is I think there are a lot of extremely smart thermal, metalugy engineers in intel and they have done their homework about it but it comes down to a cost/benefit performance/longevity analysis at the end and we get what we get.

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, mrthuvi said:

For mainstream, the K series is binned after attaching the IHS so unless they solder the entire line up, it won't happen.

 

But the hedt lineup should be 100% soldered anyway imo.

 

The problem is I think there are a lot of extremely smart thermal, metalugy engineers in intel and they have done their homework about it but it comes down to a cost/benefit performance/longevity analysis at the end and we get what we get.

I've said many times before, Intel don't design chips for overclocker's, they design chips for everyone else, and if they can bin a few and market them to overclocker's then that's just extra cash.   They have a  validation process and a spec to ensure each chip performs as advertised and within a healthy safety margin. 

[MoonlightSylv]

On 7/31/2017 at 0:45 PM, zMeul said:

except it's not the TIM that is the problem, it's the z height between the die and the IHS

but, no matter how many times this is told and repeated, here, on Anand and everywhere else ... you blame the TIM 

Then why does replacing the TIM solve the problem?

[themctipers]

23 minutes ago, mrthuvi said:

For mainstream, the K series is binned after attaching the IHS so unless they solder the entire line up, it won't happen.

 

But the hedt lineup should be 100% soldered anyway imo.

 

The problem is I think there are a lot of extremely smart thermal, metalugy engineers in intel and they have done their homework about it but it comes down to a cost/benefit performance/longevity analysis at the end and we get what we get.

HEDT people don't keep their chips for a decade

maybe somewhere between 5-7 years MAX

thats probably the starting point where micro fracture make a difference, the STARTING point. 

 

the mayo they use IIRC is made for being able to withstand temperature exchange and changes for a decade or decades, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Drak3]

On 7/31/2017 at 11:50 AM, For Science! said:

Not entirely convinced this is actually true, I have delidded and relidded my CPU with liquid metal (I.e. re-introduced said Z-height difference) and observed substantially improved thermals, and there are also plenty of others in the same boat. 

 

On the other hand you have Linus who delidded a 6700K and used conventional thermal paste and no relid (and therefore no Z-height) and only oberseved marginal temperature improvements. So I would argue that the paste material does make a notable impact on performance.

 

 

The TIM is a bottleneck, and replacing it with a liquid metal can be very benefitial (especially when going for high overclocks), but for stock clocks and mid overclocks, the TIM is not an issue. Irregular (arguably faulty) process is.

However, you won't see much difference delidding at stock with ambient cooling, which is what Linus' video covers (their "testing" is a pathetic joke, and they're not that good for any in depth info anymore), but not when overclocking.

 

[yian88]

intel keeps on diggin