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[Updated with final Review] Vega FE Benchmarking by PCPER

19 minutes ago, 3DOSH said:

You just made my arrangement My friend, EXACLY THAT, AMD cant afford two dies with two different memory controller. Show me the last time AMD did that ??? 
Nvidia on the other can P100, GTX line, Different Core configs,GDDR5 dies,GDDR5X dies ...
What dose AMD have Vega 10 and 11 ?

You got me. The 550, 580, big Vega and small Vega all use the same die with the same memory controller. They absolutely don't have some cards that use GDDR5 and others that use HBM. Damn.

 

When was the last time AMD did that? Uhhh right now

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11 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

You got me. The 550, 580, big Vega and small Vega all use the same die with the same memory controller. They absolutely don't have some cards that use GDDR5 and others that use HBM. Damn.

 

When was the last time AMD did that? Uhhh right now

580 is Polaris ?!

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6 hours ago, Nicnac said:

Sometimes you reallyhave to wonder what the actual f*** is going on at AMD.

 

1 hour ago, Tedny said:

8.9 Teraflops GPU better than 13.1 Teraflops GPU................. How ? 

People, pls, explain me that!

To both of you. If you look at the PCPer article, the Vega FE trades blows with the 1080ti and Quattro P5000 on worskstation jobs. This is indeed a very powerful card, but as AMD has stated themselves, this is NOT a gaming card.

 

It should be quite clear that the RX Vega should perform a LOT better. Atm, we have Fiji (Fury X) with 4096 SP and Vega with the same number. But Vega is newer architecture and about 50% higher clock rate, yet has the same performance? If Vega as an architecture was really that bad, AMD would have just ported Fiji to the 14nm FinFet LPU process instead.

 

The Vega FE is obviously not just tweaked using drivers. Something else is going on here. It seems that tilebased rendering is disabled, probably to use the resources for something else.

 

Who knows where RX Vega will be in terms of performance, but I think it's safe to say that FE is not representative.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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7 minutes ago, Notional said:

 

To both of you. If you look at the PCPer article, the Vega FE trades blows with the 1080ti and Quattro P5000 on worskstation jobs. This is indeed a very powerful card, but as AMD has stated themselves, this is NOT a gaming card.

 

It should be quite clear that the RX Vega should perform a LOT better. Atm, we have Fiji (Fury X) with 4096 SP and Vega with the same number. But Vega is newer architecture and about 50% higher clock rate, yet has the same performance? If Vega as an architecture was really that bad, AMD would have just ported Fiji to the 14nm FinFet LPU process instead.

 

The Vega FE is obviously not just tweaked using drivers. Something else is going on here. It seems that tilebased rendering is disabled, probably to use the resources for something else.

 

Who knows where RX Vega will be in terms of performance, but I think it's safe to say that FE is not representative.

AMD cards have always been better in pro apps when compared with GTX and low end Quattros.

 

No it doesn't? It's not going to magically catch up to the 1080ti. That would require over 30% driver improvement that simply no one expects to see because it's virtually unprecedented. AMD spent so much time developing this product that they have to release it. It's still better than FuryX at pro level apps so for that it's good.

 

Again. Drivers aren't going to help it catch up that signifigantly. Also pretty sure tile rasterization is something you can just turn off. Fairly sure that is something that hardware/architectural that you can't change.

 

That is simply way over wishful thinking.

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8 minutes ago, Hunter259 said:

AMD cards have always been better in pro apps when compared with GTX and low end Quattros.

 

No it doesn't? It's not going to magically catch up to the 1080ti. That would require over 30% driver improvement that simply no one expects to see because it's virtually unprecedented. AMD spent so much time developing this product that they have to release it. It's still better than FuryX at pro level apps so for that it's good.

 

Again. Drivers aren't going to help it catch up that signifigantly. Also pretty sure tile rasterization is something you can just turn off. Fairly sure that is something that hardware/architectural that you can't change.

 

That is simply way over wishful thinking.

I wouldn't exactly call the p5000 a low-end Quattro.

 

As I stated, it seems tile based rendering is disabled. We don't know how many game specific hardware features are disabled either directly in the hardware or bios, let alone the drivers. Disabled hardware features in themselves can easily gain you 20-30% performance without any driver optimizations.

 

I'm not stating the big Vega chip will beat the 1080ti, but it's not out of the question either. The 480 Polaris GPU with same die size as Vega and same clock rate should actually beat the 1080ti, so unless the Vega architecture is fundamentally broken, it's not unrealistic.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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16 minutes ago, Hunter259 said:

Drivers aren't going to help it catch up that signifigantly. Also pretty sure tile rasterization is something you can just turn off. Fairly sure that is something that hardware/architectural that you can't change.

 

That is simply way over wishful thinking.

It worked for the fury x in some cases.

 

Then again the performance of Frontier Edition makes no sense when comparing it's specs to Fiji. It should be 40-50% faster, instead it's 15% on average.

 

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2 minutes ago, Valentyn said:

-snip-

I never said it wouldn't get gains but I said it wouldn't get near the 50% it needs to catch up to the 1080ti.

 

4 minutes ago, Notional said:

I wouldn't exactly call the p5000 a low-end Quattro.

 

As I stated, it seems tile based rendering is disabled. We don't know how many game specific hardware features are disabled either directly in the hardware or bios, let alone the drivers. Disabled hardware features in themselves can easily gain you 20-30% performance without any driver optimizations.

 

I'm not stating the big Vega chip will beat the 1080ti, but it's not out of the question either. The 480 Polaris GPU with same die size as Vega and same clock rate should actually beat the 1080ti, so unless the Vega architecture is fundamentally broken, it's not unrealistic.

It's low end for the product stack.

 

It's like a Titan and it has a gaming mode. Why would you cut that off of this card? That just makes no sense.

 

And would be a bitch to not only cool but to make. Larger the die size the more difficult it is to produce. Would also use even more power and likely would not hit the same clock rates.

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1 minute ago, Hunter259 said:

I never said it wouldn't get gains but I said it wouldn't get near the 50% it needs to catch up to the 1080ti.

 

 

Yeah most realistic expectations was between 1080 and 1080Ti; and looking at the specs it should hit that spot.

 

Although AMD is being really really quiet about the tests regarding rasterization, and even IPC. So there's still so many unknowns.

Another month before Siggraph and we can find out if Raja's hope/expectations for 4K gaming for under 1K is realised for 2017.

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Quote

It didn’t hit the 1600 MHz it should have.
The rated clock speed of the Radeon Vega Frontier Edition is 1600 MHz, but in our testing the GPU never really got to that, settling in the 1440 MHz range the majority of the time. 

kek. 160MHz off the mark. 

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2 minutes ago, Hunter259 said:

It's low end for the product stack.

 

It's like a Titan and it has a gaming mode. Why would you cut that off of this card? That just makes no sense.

 

And would be a bitch to not only cool but to make. Larger the die size the more difficult it is to produce. Would also use even more power and likely would not hit the same clock rates.

 

Dude, the P5000 is the third highest model with the P100 being in a catagory of its own:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/quadro-graphics-with-pascal.html The p5000 is basically a 1080.

 

It makes perfect sense when you look at the way AMD intends the product to be used: By content creators doing 3D work. The gaming mode is simply there to run the damn thing, so you can switch between content creation and exectution. Heck PCPer even concluded there are no difference other than settings between Pro and gaming modes. By all intents and purposes, this is a content creation card, a pro card.

Titan hasn't been close to that since the Kepler days of old. All Titan cards from Maxwell and Pascal series have been ripoffs. Gaming cards with twice the vram running gaming drivers and nothing else.

 

What do you mean? I'm comparing the architecture of Polaris with the actual die size of Vega. So AMD are already manufacturing that (well GloFo are). Either way, it was a theoretical example.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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5 minutes ago, Notional said:

Dude, the P5000 is the third highest model with the P100 being in a catagory of its own:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/quadro-graphics-with-pascal.html The p5000 is basically a 1080.

 

It makes perfect sense when you look at the way AMD intends the product to be used: By content creators doing 3D work. The gaming mode is simply there to run the damn thing, so you can switch between content creation and exectution. Heck PCPer even concluded there are no difference other than settings between Pro and gaming modes. By all intents and purposes, this is a content creation card, a pro card.

Titan hasn't been close to that since the Kepler days of old. All Titan cards from Maxwell and Pascal series have been ripoffs. Gaming cards with twice the vram running gaming drivers and nothing else.

 

What do you mean? I'm comparing the architecture of Polaris with the actual die size of Vega. So AMD are already manufacturing that (well GloFo are). Either way, it was a theoretical example.

My bad. Just seemed low end. 

 

Except its not Radeon Pro or the upcoming super pro card (Totally forget what it's called). This is a prosumer card. It's not built for just pro apps. In fact it's missing quite a few pro features to keep it from eating up Radeon Pro products the same way Nvidia keeps the Titan from eating into Quadro. Only difference is AMD allows it to get much closer to the pro products than nvidia. 

 

Polaris is already extremely power hungry as it sits. To double to cores would make it use 400w of power if it was just a big 580. To make a chip that power hungry work in large enough batches would be quite a task.

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3 minutes ago, Hunter259 said:

My bad. Just seemed low end. 

 

Except its not Radeon Pro or the upcoming super pro card (Totally forget what it's called). This is a prosumer card. It's not built for just pro apps. In fact it's missing quite a few pro features to keep it from eating up Radeon Pro products the same way Nvidia keeps the Titan from eating into Quadro. Only difference is AMD allows it to get much closer to the pro products than nvidia. 

 

Polaris is already extremely power hungry as it sits. To double to cores would make it use 400w of power if it was just a big 580. To make a chip that power hungry work in large enough batches would be quite a task.

Yeah it's not like their Instinct? cards. But it's not in that pricing category either. Market wise it's similar to a Titan card, so I get the comparison, but that doesn't mean functions and hardware support is comparable. As you said, the AMD card is closer to a pro product than the Titan card. That is mostly because there is nothing pro about a Titan card anymore. It's literally just a gaming card with gaming drivers and twice the vram + a hefty price increase.

 

Point is, if it was possible, it would be up there. For Vega to not get any better at gaming on the RX variant, the architecture would have to be absolutely abysmal. That is not impossible, but highly unlikely.

 

I agree with you and others, that a 30-50% increase just in driver optimizations seems unlikely. But if the FE edition has gaming specific hardware support disabled, it would account for a LOT.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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1 minute ago, Notional said:

Yeah it's not like their Instinct? cards. But it's not in that pricing category either. Market wise it's similar to a Titan card, so I get the comparison, but that doesn't mean functions and hardware support is comparable. As you said, the AMD card is closer to a pro product than the Titan card. That is mostly because there is nothing pro about a Titan card anymore. It's literally just a gaming card with gaming drivers and twice the vram + a hefty price increase.

 

Point is, if it was possible, it would be up there. For Vega to not get any better at gaming on the RX variant, the architecture would have to be absolutely abysmal. That is not impossible, but highly unlikely.

 

I agree with you and others, that a 30-50% increase just in driver optimizations seems unlikely. But if the FE edition has gaming specific hardware support disabled, it would account for a LOT.

Yeah I see what youre saying but I just understand why they would do it. Purposely gimp the gaming performance for the sole purpose of keeping it under wraps. After all these delays and secrecy and now this bombshell of a review it makes it seem like VEGA was just a waste of resources.

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1 minute ago, Hunter259 said:

Yeah I see what youre saying but I just understand why they would do it. Purposely gimp the gaming performance for the sole purpose of keeping it under wraps. After all these delays and secrecy and now this bombshell of a review it makes it seem like VEGA was just a waste of resources.

Definitely a bombshell for sure. And I really hope it's not representative of the RX line, because we consumers need proper competition. Just look what is happening on the CPU side now that AMD is competitive at the high end again.

 

Either way, I think AMD really lost the plot with HBM. It not only cost AMD a lot of money, but resulted in the utter failure of Fiji, and has given a lot of problems with Vega. And it was entirely unnecessary, as GDDR5+/6 is still capable.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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1 minute ago, Notional said:

Definitely a bombshell for sure. And I really hope it's not representative of the RX line, because we consumers need proper competition. Just look what is happening on the CPU side now that AMD is competitive at the high end again.

 

Either way, I think AMD really lost the plot with HBM. It not only cost AMD a lot of money, but resulted in the utter failure of Fiji, and has given a lot of problems with Vega. And it was entirely unnecessary, as GDDR5+/6 is still capable.

People on this forum still scream at Nvidia for not using HBM even though it's completely not necessary. Nvidia is smart for letting it fully bake before trying to use it on the masses. GDDR shall never die at the rate we are going.

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Just now, Hunter259 said:

People on this forum still scream at Nvidia for not using HBM even though it's completely not necessary. Nvidia is smart for letting it fully bake before trying to use it on the masses. GDDR shall never die at the rate we are going.

Well Nvidia is using HBM2 on their P100 quadro cards. That is the right way to do it: Implement it on their pro cards, where the volume is smaller and the price markup/profit margin is much much much higher. AMD should have done that instead. The only reason they don't is the lack of R&D resources (both manpower and money), so they cannot build 2 separate lines of cards like NVidia is doing now. AMD is kinda stuck in the jack of all trades, master of none deal. 

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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Just now, Notional said:

Well Nvidia is using HBM2 on their P100 quadro cards. That is the right way to do it: Implement it on their pro cards, where the volume is smaller and the price markup/profit margin is much much much higher. AMD should have done that instead. The only reason they don't is the lack of R&D resources (both manpower and money), so they cannot build 2 separate lines of cards like NVidia is doing now. AMD is kinda stuck in the jack of all trades, master of none deal. 

That's what I meant by the masses. The Super Pro level stuff is sold at such a small quantity it barely counts. AMD should have just not touched HBM and worked on memory compression and drivers instead. An 8GB FuryX with Memory Compression would have been much better.

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8 minutes ago, Notional said:

 so they cannot build 2 separate lines of cards like NVidia is doing now. AMD is kinda stuck in the jack of all trades, master of none deal. 

They literally have two different architectures in their 500-series. They have done more R&D for this generation of card than Nvidia, who essentially die-shrunk Maxwell.

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Just now, othertomperson said:

They literally have two different architectures in their 500-series. They have done more R&D for this generation of card than Nvidia, who essentially die-shrunk Maxwell.

Which 2? Vega is not part of the 500 series afaik. And the 500 series out now are Polaris rebrands. Not saying Pascal is impressive, but the pro cards are built differently than the GTX versions. P100 is an entirely different card.

 

Point is that AMD should (when possible) split the architecture in two: 1 for gaming and 1 for pro. You can do that based on same architecture, but optimizations needs to be quite different.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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1 hour ago, Notional said:

Definitely a bombshell for sure. And I really hope it's not representative of the RX line, because we consumers need proper competition. Just look what is happening on the CPU side now that AMD is competitive at the high end again.

 

Either way, I think AMD really lost the plot with HBM. It not only cost AMD a lot of money, but resulted in the utter failure of Fiji, and has given a lot of problems with Vega. And it was entirely unnecessary, as GDDR5+/6 is still capable.

HBM seems like one of those bullets you just have to bite, but the problem is that it wasn't 1 supply delay.  It appears to have been delayed multiple times, locking RTG into a no-win situation.  To the point we might almost see saturation of HBM3 before HBM2 reaches that point.  It happens in tech (Intel's 10nm process is why AMD was able to catch up with Ryzen).

 

Side-point: I've only seen it discussed a few times, but HBM brings up some really useful things for virtualization and, likely, Infinity Fabric GPU dies. That's why it's important, even if the supply ended up being a big problem.

 

The thing with FE vs RX Vega is that Raja has said, multiple times, that the RX version has aspects the FE doesn't. I'm curious if that's the tile-based rasterization or something else. (Has anyone checked the FE for the primitive shader functions?)

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2 hours ago, Hunter259 said:

AMD cards have always been better in pro apps when compared with GTX and low end Quattros.

 

2 hours ago, Notional said:

I wouldn't exactly call the p5000 a low-end Quattro.


What does come after nvidia Quattro, nvidia Cinque?

lol

On a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam

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1 minute ago, Agost said:

What does come after nvidia Quattro, nvidia Cinque?

Cinqro 

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1 hour ago, Hunter259 said:

Polaris is already extremely power hungry as it sits. To double to cores would make it use 400w of power if it was just a big 580. To make a chip that power hungry work in large enough batches would be quite a task.

Doesn't work that way. Increasing core count is a better way to increase performance than increasing clock speed if you want to remain efficient.

As you can see doubling the core count while increasing clock speed only increases the TDP by 50% and it also has a wider and therefore more power hungry memory bus which could add 10W on its own. Of course this is Nvidia (which is obviously a very different architecture) however it should be much the same for AMD but I don't have a neat chart for AMD.

NVIDIA GPU Specification Comparison
  GTX 1080 GTX 1070 GTX 1060 GTX 960
CUDA Cores 2560 1920 1280 1024
Texture Units 160 120 80 64
ROPs 64 64 48 32
Core Clock 1607MHz 1506MHz 1506MHz 1126MHz
Boost Clock 1733MHz 1683MHz 1709MHz 1178MHz
TFLOPs (FMA) 8.9 TFLOPs 6.5 TFLOPs 4.4 TFLOPs 2.4 TFLOPs
Memory Clock 10Gbps GDDR5X 8Gbps GDDR5 8Gbps GDDR5 7Gbps GDDR5
Memory Bus Width 256-bit 256-bit 192-bit 128-bit
VRAM 8GB 8GB 6GB 2GB
FP64 1/32 1/32 1/32 1/32
TDP 180W 150W 120W 120W
GPU GP104 GP104 GP106 GM204
Transistor Count 7.2B 7.2B 4.4B 2.94B
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