[UPDATED] Der8auer States Some X299 Low End boards Have Bad VRM Coolers

[Drak3]

16 minutes ago, VagabondWraith said:

Does he SERIOUSLY expect people to be running HEDT without the proper cooling?

Do you seriously expect some people to not?

 

3 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Still don't know why manufacturers have to use solid blocks, when they could have the older+better fin design with a removable metal cover sitting over the top of the fins (primarily for cleaning+boosting the surface area).

For a good while, it wasn't needed to be designed like that. And for the most part, it still doesn't need to be exactly like that anymore, there can be a happy compromise of having them be a finned block with a top cover, or mill the blocks to have fins in the middle, so exhaust fans on the top get airflow through the sinks.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, Notional said:

I assume it's easier/cheaper to manufacture. But with the added design element, I just don't know. I guess Intel CPU's have just been too efficient compared to the VRM earlier. But honestly, I think the two biggest reasons are the rushed release date as well as these CPU's are capable of drawing a lot more power than what the vendors expected/were able to test in such a short time.

That's possible. For a while manufacturers didn't have to apply much attention to the VRM due to Haswell's design, which you can kind of see with how crazy the VRM are on some Skylake boards (they were complete overkill, and that's before you went to the high end boards)

[Taf the Ghost]

Somewhere way back in this thread, I mentioned that the likely problem is that Intel's baseline cooling requirements for the VRMs was simply too low in the Spec Sheet for the X299 platform. I expect the v2s of all of the cheaper boards to correct that.

[Dackzy]

7900x is pulling over 400W, god damn 

[uplink777]

Still, all I can say for Der8auer and his new test is: What kind of person would have 1 fan for intake test PC? I dunno, but I use 3 for intake and 4 for exhaust. And when I game, they run at 700-900 rpm, and I can still hear only the game and not the PC. Last 5 generations of Intel CPUz and motherboards with their respective configurations need moderate airflow, not summer breeze. One can't achieve moderate airflow with one, or two intake fans afaik, no matter how big they are [unless You use 200+ mm fan, of course]. But really now. What kind of dumbass would buy a mobo for 200-300e [w/o VAT] for a 890e [w/o VAT] CPU? I'm about to cool the 7900X with Predator 360. I don't know, but again. Der8auer using cheap AiO to test HEDT CPU? With 140W TDP? i9 are meant for either custom loops with 1 240 80mm rad, or 1 360 60mm rad, or multirad configuration, at least some Swiftech H320X2 Prestige, or EK-XLC Predator 360. Only these two AiOs pack strong enough liquid pushing pressure[?]/liquid flow, tubing diameter and radiator size to take away that amount of heat, that's dissipated by 140W CPU. Nothing less. And also, when one builds HEDT PC, one uses multiple fans for air intake, not one. Or is it only me?

[The Benjamins]

8 minutes ago, uplink777 said:

Still, all I can say for Der8auer and his new test is: What kind of person would have 1 fan for intake test PC? I dunno, but I use 3 for intake and 4 for exhaust. And when I game, they run at 700-900 rpm, and I can still hear only the game and not the PC. Last 5 generations of Intel CPUz and motherboards with their respective configurations need moderate airflow, not summer breeze. One can't achieve moderate airflow with one, or two intake fans afaik, no matter how big they are [unless You use 200+ mm fan, of course]. But really now. What kind of dumbass would buy a mobo for 200-300e [w/o VAT] for a 890e [w/o VAT] CPU? I'm about to cool the 7900X with Predator 360. I don't know, but again. Der8auer using cheap AiO to test HEDT CPU? With 140W TDP? i9 are meant for either custom loops with 1 240 80mm rad, or 1 360 60mm rad, or multirad configuration, at least some Swiftech H320X2 Prestige, or EK-XLC Predator 360. Only these two AiOs pack strong enough liquid pressure, tubing diameter and radiator size to take away that amount of heat, that's dissipated by 140W CPU. Nothing less. And also, when one builds HEDT PC, one uses multiple fans for air intake, not one. Or is it only me?

Well he is one of the only people that has his 7900X delided which would help with heat a lot. OC3D had CPU heat issues that would of been helped by a delid.

[uplink777]

@The Benjamins I understand that. I just don't understand, why is everyone trying to justify monster of a CPU [i9 7900X] running on a mediocre motherboard, poor AiO and weak to no airflow environment. Delid, or no-delid. The heat is the limit, that was made clear on every side by now. I'm just still curious about the "using of low-end to entry hardware for HEDT CPU". That's all I don't understand.

Not sure why won't Der8uer take GA X299 Gaming 9, hit it with custom loop and two water pumps, put it all into a test bench/and/or well vented case with high air flow fans for intake and one for exhaust and high static pressure fans for rads, and retest it again?

I dunno, but I still think, when someone is nuts enough [like me :)] to buy such an expensive CPU, one is also crazy enough to invest into other peripherals. That's all.

[The Benjamins]

15 minutes ago, uplink777 said:

@The Benjamins I understand that. I just don't understand, why is everyone trying to justify monster of a CPU [i9 7900X] running on a mediocre motherboard, poor AiO and weak to no airflow environment. Delid, or no-delid. The heat is the limit, that was made clear on every side by now. I'm just still curious about the "using of low-end to entry hardware for HEDT CPU". That's all I don't understand.

Not sure why won't Der8uer take GA X299 Gaming 9, hit it with custom loop and two water pumps, put it all into a test bench/and/or well vented case with high air flow fans for intake and one for exhaust and high static pressure fans for rads, and retest it again?

I dunno, but I still think, when someone is nuts enough [like me :)] to buy such an expensive CPU, one is also crazy enough to invest into other peripherals. That's all.

To review and warn users. (The motherboards)

[MageTank]

49 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

7900x is pulling over 400W, god damn 

Only 400w? What is this, amateur hour?! @done12many2 bring the heat buddy.

[uplink777]

@The Benjamins that means there are people out there, who hit 1000e for a CPU and get 200e board? Like for X99, or X58, or whichever and hit it with 140W chip and rant about insufficent headroom for OC and heavy duty benchmarks?

Well. That's nice of him. He/They [Der8auer & OC3D guy] reminds me of this guy:
 

He tested Intel and Ryzen @ stock freq. And performance to dollar ratio is leaned towards Intel. And than he downclocked both of them to 3.6 GHz and turned off all core MP/vcore/etc. enhancing techs [e.g. TB, TC]. And they were on par. This is fine, but in the end, he forgot to mention, that all Ryzen chips lose breath at around 4 GHz, whilst Intel's morning warm-up excercise begins at 4.5 GHz and is peaking beyond the legendary 5 GHz.

I don't like when people say A, but forgot to mention B. Both Der8auer and that OC3D guy made a case out of a "wannabe" Intel/Motherboard manufacturers national fail month, instead of telling people the obvious: "One won't buy a thousand dollar 140W CPU and use a three hundred dollar motherboard with a hundred dollar AiO in a non vented environment."

I'm running heavily OCed 6850K [4.7 GHz] with high vCore [1.48x]. And whenever I forget to turn on my summer profile in Asus Ai Suite [500-600 rpm on all fans @ idle, instead of 200-300 rpm], my VRM runs up to 80-90°C at idle, instead of 40-45°C. Does that mean that the Asus X99 Deluxe II final revision has crappy VRM cooler? No. It means I'm not moving enough air through my case, and that's about that. I have a "hardcore fan" case, with 8 fans + 2 on VGA + 1 on PSU. All active at all times. And You still don't see me ranting on youtube how Asus effed up my motherboard [eventhogh they did in some places].

[done12many2]

3 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Only 400w? What is this, amateur hour?! @done12many2 bring the heat buddy.

 

Say what?

[MageTank]

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

Say what?

 

To those that can't tell, that's 600w system load under 48k FFT Prime95. After accounting for his pumps and fans (and idle components), hes pulling 500w+ with the CPU alone. If that doesn't scare you yet, this will. The man isn't even done, lol. He still has work to do on his ram, and something tells me he will eventually delid and go for 5ghz one day. I expect 600w CPU's to be a real thing.

 

All hail the masochism of X299. 

[done12many2]

4 minutes ago, uplink777 said:

@The Benjamins that means there are people out there, who hit 1000e for a CPU and get 200e board? Like for X99, or X58, or whichever and hit it with 140W chip and rant about insufficent headroom for OC and heavy duty benchmarks?

Well. That's nice of him. He/They [Der8auer & OC3D guy] reminds me of this guy:
 

He tested Intel and Ryzen @ stock freq. And performance to dollar ratio is leaned towards Intel. And than he downclocked both of them to 3.6 GHz and turned off all core MP/vcore/etc. enhancing techs [e.g. TB, TC]. And they were on par. This is fine, but in the end, he forgot to mention, that all Ryzen chips end around 4 GHz, whilst Intel's morning warm-up excercise begins at 4.5 GHz and is peaking beyond the legendary 5 GHz.

I don't like when people say A, but forgot to mention B. Both Der8auer and that OC3D guy made a case out of a "wannabe" Intel/Motherboard manufacturers national fail month, instead of telling people the obvious: "One won't buy a thousand dollar 140W CPU and use a three hundred dollar motherboard with a hundred dollar AiO in a non vented environment."

I'm running heavily OCed 6850K [4.7 GHz] with high vCore [1.48x]. And whenever I forget to turn on my summer profile in Asus Ai Suite [500-600 rpm on all fans @ idle, instead of 200-300 rpm], my VRM runs up to 80-90°C at idle, instead of 40-45°C. Does that mean that the Asus X99 Deluxe II final revision has crappy VRM cooler? No. It means I'm not moving enough air through my case, and that's about that. I have a "hardcore fan" case, with 8 fans + 2 on VGA + 1 on PSU. All active at all times. And You still don't see me ranting on youtube how Asus effed up my motherboard [eventhogh they did in some places].

 

I mentioned something similar earlier, but people want to believe what they want to believe.  If they want a problem with x299 to exist, it will.

[AnonymousGuy]

56 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

7900x is pulling over 400W, god damn 

I'll save everyone watching: basically Der8auer's issues only happen if you run P95 and he couldn't replicate problems outside of that ONE workload.

[uplink777]

1 minute ago, done12many2 said:

 

I mentioned something similar earlier, but people want to believe what they want to believe.  If they want a problem with x299 to exist, it will.

"We found a witch, may we burn her?" attitude. Yeah, I understand.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I'll save everyone watching: basically Der8auer's issues only happen if you run P95 and he couldn't replicate problems outside of that ONE workload.

Linpack (both MKL and non-MKL) will do it as well. 

[done12many2]

2 minutes ago, MageTank said:

To those that can't tell, that's 600w system load under 48k FFT Prime95. After accounting for his pumps and fans (and idle components), hes pulling 500w+ with the CPU alone. If that doesn't scare you yet, this will. The man isn't even done, lol. He still has work to do on his ram, and something tells me he will eventually delid and go for 5ghz one day. I expect 600w CPU's to be a real thing.

 

All hail the masochism of X299. 

 

Trust me when I say that no video designed to grab attention is going to stop me from pushing the ever living shit out of this chip.  

 

Oh, and Linpack hit 617 watts without even a hint of VRM related temp issues or throttling.  I'm not exactly using a cheap board (cheap being relevant to the brand series and platfor), but I've talked this point to death.  

 

Thanks for the help.  

[done12many2]

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

Linpack (both MKL and non-MKL) will do it as well. 

 

On lower-end boards.  

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, done12many2 said:

 

Trust me when I say that no video designed to grab attention is going to stop me from pushing the ever living shit out of this chip.  

 

Oh, and Linpack hit 617 watts without even a hint of VRM related temp issues or throttling.  I'm not exactly using a cheap board (cheap being relevant to the brand series and platfor), but I've talked this point to death.  

 

Thanks for the help.  

 

2 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Linpack (both MKL and non-MKL) will do it as well. 

Hehe.

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

On lower-end boards.  

I know, I was only pointing out that Prime95 is not the only torture one can use. Linpack can be scarier, lol.

 

I want everyone to remember exactly why Der8auer uses Prime95. He brought it up in that second VRM video of his. He builds pre-built machines for people, and personally believes to use "the most stressful" means of validating stability. Aside from him being wrong about Prime95 being the most stressful (seriously, Linpack MKL, not even once), his point is relatively simple. If he cannot use this methodology to provide his clients a full, 100% stable overclock under the "worst" conditions, then it is a problem for him. His worry is, if he uses less stressful programs, and someone gets their system and decided to use Prime95 and it throttle or crash, that he sold them an invalid overclock. It's a perfectly fine way of thinking, and I do not blame him for having that rationale. However, everyone's personal stress test methodology is going to be different. You might find Prime95 to be primitive and brutal, and overkill for something nobody will need, but others believe it's the only way to guarantee complete stability at all times.

 

The simple truth is: stability is always fleeting. What is stable today, can become unstable tomorrow no matter how much stress you use to validate it. You are simply stable until you are not.

 

Is this VRM temperature debacle an issue? Yeah, somewhat, but not for Intel or the vast majority of boards. It's an issue with the board partners spending more money on making their lower-end boards look good, rather than compromise on aesthetics/features to deliver a solid, durable board. That all being said, the old adage of "you get what you pay for" has never been more true.

[Taf the Ghost]

18 minutes ago, MageTank said:

 

Hehe.

I know, I was only pointing out that Prime95 is not the only torture one can use. Linpack can be scarier, lol.

 

I want everyone to remember exactly why Der8auer uses Prime95. He brought it up in that second VRM video of his. He builds pre-built machines for people, and personally believes to use "the most stressful" means of validating stability. Aside from him being wrong about Prime95 being the most stressful (seriously, Linpack MKL, not even once), his point is relatively simple. If he cannot use this methodology to provide his clients a full, 100% stable overclock under the "worst" conditions, then it is a problem for him. His worry is, if he uses less stressful programs, and someone gets their system and decided to use Prime95 and it throttle or crash, that he sold them an invalid overclock. It's a perfectly fine way of thinking, and I do not blame him for having that rationale. However, everyone's personal stress test methodology is going to be different. You might find Prime95 to be primitive and brutal, and overkill for something nobody will need, but others believe it's the only way to guarantee complete stability at all times.

 

The simple truth is: stability is always fleeting. What is stable today, can become unstable tomorrow no matter how much stress you use to validate it. You are simply stable until you are not.

 

Is this VRM temperature debacle an issue? Yeah, somewhat, but not for Intel or the vast majority of boards. It's an issue with the board partners spending more money on making their lower-end boards look good, rather than compromise on aesthetics/features to deliver a solid, durable board. That all being said, the old adage of "you get what you pay for" has never been more true.

Without the spec sheets for the Motherboards, it's hard to say for sure, but, for all of the issues with how Der8auer was able to cause the issue, he has found something repeatable across multiple boards. (There's no way to call a $300 USD motherboard "low-end", but they're the cheapest tier.) Which really just means that the Minimum Head Dissipation spec for the VRMs was set too low. If it was just one board from one company, then it was just a design flaw. He managed to force it in 3(?) companies, which means it's a minimum specification issue.

 

This will be fixed when the v2 end up launching later in the year.

 

But, I do love this thread.  At least it's nice to know that if you want to OC your X299 chip, make sure you're ready to spend $2000 USD.

[cj09beira]

34 minutes ago, MageTank said:

To those that can't tell, that's 600w system load under 48k FFT Prime95. After accounting for his pumps and fans (and idle components), hes pulling 500w+ with the CPU alone. If that doesn't scare you yet, this will. The man isn't even done, lol. He still has work to do on his ram, and something tells me he will eventually delid and go for 5ghz one day. I expect 600w CPU's to be a real thing.

 

All hail the masochism of X299. 

now imagine what those 14/16/18 core cpus will pull   

[Taf the Ghost]

1 minute ago, cj09beira said:

now imagine what those 14/16/18 core cpus will pull   

On the v2 boards?

 

The i9-7980XE should just be called the "Circuit Flipper". We all know it's going to be tripping breakers a bunch.

[AnonymousGuy]

4 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

now imagine what those 14/16/18 core cpus will pull   

I'm excited for it.  2x8 pin is going to be mandatory.  > 1000W PSU is going to be mandatory.  Delidding is going to be mandatory.

 

It's like a CPU that was *made* for people running ridiculous systems with ridiculous cooling capacity.  A real Extreme Edition chip instead of a marketing bullshit Extreme one.

 

EDIT: I wonder if this will be the first time we see either 3x8 pin CPU or 2x8pin + molex.

[cj09beira]

Just now, Taf the Ghost said:

On the v2 boards?

 

The i9-7980XE should just be called the "Circuit Flipper". We all know it's going to be tripping breakers a bunch.

you cracked me up with that one, thanks 

 i am already imagining 

costumer: my pc keeps shuting down while rendering

Asus: have you overclocked your chip?

costumer: yes but

Asus: we can't help you as we dont support overclocking

[cj09beira]

1 minute ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I'm excited for it.  2x8 pin is going to be mandatory.  > 1000W PSU is going to be mandatory.  Delidding is going to be mandatory.

 

It's like a CPU that was *made* for people running ridiculous systems with ridiculous cooling capacity.  A real Extreme Edition chip instead of a marketing bullshit Extreme one.

if having to delid a 2000 dollar cpu isn't bullshit i don't know what is