Hardware bug in Skylake and Kaby Lake : Unsafe Hyper-Threading

[NumLock21]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

LOL what?

Intel's plan for this bug was

 

Spoiler

No Fix

 

[DXMember]

19 hours ago, Alaradia said:

has intel replied to these allegations?

Intel has released a microcode update, did you even read the post?

[DXMember]

4 hours ago, Lord Nicoll said:

Well, I was wondering why even not overclocked I was getting erroneous crashes, I thought windows was just fucked up, I wonder is this it causing it. 

are you crashing since 2015? if not then this is not what's causing it.

[Lord Nicoll]

28 minutes ago, DXMember said:

are you crashing since 2015? if not then this is not what's causing it.

well this system isn't that old, the CPU is only a few months too. 

[DXMember]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nicoll said:

well this system isn't that old, the CPU is only a few months too. 

your profile says it's an i5 skylake, is there something I don't know?

[Lord Nicoll]

Just now, DXMember said:

your profile says it's an i5 skylake, is there something I don't know?

Oh, that's an old one, I currently am using an i7 7700K, also I used that CPU for barely a month while completely abusing it, 4.7GHz on 1.5-1.6 volt (I was using super cooled liquid to try to push 4.8 or 4.9 but the chip just would not without obscene PLL and SA voltages). The actual voltage needed however, I was able to tune down to 1.48-1.52v, which it still didn't like, that chip is now chillaxing in a HTPC. Plus the I5 doesn't have hyperthreading. 

[DXMember]

Just now, Lord Nicoll said:

Oh, that's an old one, I currently am using an i7 7700K, also I used that CPU for barely a month while completely abusing it, 4.7GHz on 1.5-1.6 volt (I was using super cooled liquid to try to push 4.8 or 4.9 but the chip just would not without obscene PLL and SA voltages). The actual voltage needed however, I was able to tune down to 1.48-1.52v, which it still didn't like, that chip is now chillaxing in a HTPC. Plus the I5 doesn't have hyperthreading. 

I'm more inclined to believe you wore down the chip with those voltages than you experiencing the HT bug

[Lord Nicoll]

Just now, DXMember said:

I'm more inclined to believe you wore down the chip with those voltages than you experiencing the HT bug

That wasn't the chip, the i5 doesn't even have hyperthreading, and you don't break a chip that fast, especially not on sub ambient cooling. The highest the i7 7700K went was 1.44v, which really isn't that high for how little it actually get used. 

[DXMember]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nicoll said:

That wasn't the chip, the i5 doesn't even have hyperthreading, and you don't break a chip that fast, especially not on sub ambient cooling. The highest the i7 7700K went was 1.44v, which really isn't that high for how little it actually get used. 

exactly!

[Lord Nicoll]

Just now, DXMember said:

exactly!

The issue I'm having is with the i7 7700K though.... However clearing the cmos again seems to have fixed the issue but I haven't left it idle much at the same time, I might also try drivers as the error was either drivers, or something else. 

[Dabombinable]

8 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

I seriously doubt that: probably a placebo effect on your end or some other issue. I have never seen drastically worst i5 results on any serious review.

Multiple sources with locked i7 performing better in games than i5>multiple first hand accounts even from people who went from Core 2 Duo T7600>i5 4440>i7 4790K>^ says its a placebo effect.

[dtaflorida]

When you have many actual cores, does hyperthreading even matter? And I don't mean the common quad core cpus that many applications have optimized for since that's all Intel would give us till now. 

 

I used to use a dual E5345 Xeon system (8 cores no HT) with workloads that would peg every core at 100%. I can't see that hyperthreading would help much when running those workloads. But everything else... meh, there was likely a couple of cores that were completely idle anyways. 

[ARikozuM]

8 minutes ago, dtaflorida said:

When you have many actual cores, does hyperthreading even matter? 

Up to a point. Having physical cores is worlds better than relying on HT/SMT since they don't offer any calculating power but they decrease downtime of the CPU. 

 

Edit: Remember that when you add more cores, you usually have to take away frequency which could negate whatever advantage your core count would have had, but if you supplement a lower core count with HT/SMT, you would get much better performance than without for those programs that can use the logical cores very well.

This whole 4P/4L vs 4P/8L battle is never going to end since this community is bent on only certain benchmarks where the obvious bottleneck is being pointed out. Unfortunately, this is the glory of the "Master Race" where the more you spend, the better off you'll be. 

Spoiler

TL;DR: PCMR = We don't game to play the game, but only to get the Hz.

 

[MageTank]

48 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Multiple sources with locked i7 performing better in games than i5>multiple first hand accounts even from people who went from Core 2 Duo T7600>i5 4440>i7 4790K>^ says its a placebo effect.

Give him a break. He has a locked i5 4440, on a locked H81 platform, using single rank 1600mhz ram. He doesn't know the difference in minimum framerates because his average framerates are just as low. That poor, starving GTX 1070.

 

Please don't kill me @Misanthrope, I am only joking.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, MageTank said:

Give him a break. He has a locked i5 4440, on a locked H81 platform, using single rank 1600mhz ram. He doesn't know the difference in minimum framerates because his average framerates are just as low. That poor, starving GTX 1070.

 

Please don't kill me @Misanthrope, I am only joking.

Probably doesn't even have all cores locked to the maximum 3.3GHz turbo (it made a difference in my friends rig playing Ark Survival...which is a game that loves threads and has a GTX 970 getting bottlenecked by the i5....just like FO4).

[SansVarnic]

Spoilers do exist.

[Misanthrope]

56 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Give him a break. He has a locked i5 4440, on a locked H81 platform, using single rank 1600mhz ram. He doesn't know the difference in minimum framerates because his average framerates are just as low. That poor, starving GTX 1070.

 

Please don't kill me @Misanthrope, I am only joking.

I think I mentioned several times I plan on updating for a while now: This rig goes back to 2015 after all (or maybe 2014 can't remember) It's just taking a while to pull the trigger I usually take a while on such things.

[MageTank]

Just now, Misanthrope said:

I think I mentioned several times I plan on updating for a while now: This rig goes back to 2015 after all. It's just taking a while to pull the trigger I usually take a while on such things.

I won't judge, I still have my 6600T lying around, along with some 2133 C13 PANRAM memory, lol. I don't know if Mexico has any brick and mortar stores that offer great discounts, but I was able to pick up a Ryzen 1600, ASUS B350 plus board and 16GB of random Micron ram from Microcenter for $250. They often have open-box boards, and offer automatic discounts when buying any CPU/motherboard that is compatible with each other. Seriously worth looking into if you are looking for a platform upgrade.

 

If you want more "realistic" tests of HT on vs off in gaming, I can test that with a 1070 at 1440p at both stock and 5ghz clock speeds, if it will help with any future purchasing decisions. 

[Misanthrope]

Just now, MageTank said:

I won't judge, I still have my 6600T lying around, along with some 2133 C13 PANRAM memory, lol. I don't know if Mexico has any brick and mortar stores that offer great discounts, but I was able to pick up a Ryzen 1600, ASUS B350 plus board and 16GB of random Micron ram from Microcenter for $250. They often have open-box boards, and offer automatic discounts when buying any CPU/motherboard that is compatible with each other. Seriously worth looking into if you are looking for a platform upgrade.

 

If you want more "realistic" tests of HT on vs off in gaming, I can test that with a 1070 at 1440p at both stock and 5ghz clock speeds, if it will help with any future purchasing decisions. 

Yeah for most parts prices aren't unreasonable that's not my problem. Availability is my problem, specifically case availability: The only thing you commonly find locally is garbage like Aereocool or Eagle Warrior or other no-name brands of really cheap cases. 

 

Occasionally there's a few Corsair ones but usually I take too long to pick a Corsair I like. And Amazon or Newegg are out of the question: it's like 150 bucks of fucking shipping and import tax with them.

[MageTank]

Just now, Misanthrope said:

Yeah for most parts prices aren't unreasonable that's not my problem. Availability is my problem, specifically case availability: The only thing you commonly find locally is garbage like Aereocool or Eagle Warrior or other no-name brands of really cheap cases. 

 

Occasionally there's a few Corsair ones but usually I take too long to pick a Corsair I like. And Amazon or Newegg are out of the question: it's like 150 bucks of fucking shipping and import tax with them.

That's absurd. To think, I normally take cases for granted, lol. I managed to pick up a Cooler Master Master Case Pro 5 for $110, and it's been absolutely amazing for my thermals. I just recently left the ITX scene, as I was tired of my enthusiast buddies leaving me in the dust when benching, and it's been a night and day difference. Part of the reason why I am able to push 5.2ghz on this 7700k now. 

[Drak3]

2 hours ago, dtaflorida said:

When you have many actual cores, does hyperthreading even matter?

Yes. It helps prevent thread locking, and can offers advanced resource management that gives HT/SMT chips an edge in multitasking, especially if you are using one set of software that hits hardware component A but not B, and software that hits B but not A.

 

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

I just recently left the ITX scene, as I was tired of my enthusiast buddies leaving me in the dust when benching

Be like Drak3. Have your main system, and a secondary ITX system for travel/HTPC/Emulators/Bashing your heathen friends' heads in when they mock your multiple systems.

[Demonking]

On 6/26/2017 at 11:42 AM, PCGuy_5960 said:

An R5 1400 with a B350 motherboard is cheaper and better, there's literally no reason to get a brand new i5 right now......

Unless you play GTA5 

[Demonking]

On 6/26/2017 at 11:30 AM, MageTank said:

I am sorry you feel that way. You are arguing price:performance to people that are strictly talking about performance. In fact, you only recently brought price into the equation, which saddens me further considering it was never a part of the argument in the first place. Someone mentioned HT helps with minimum framerates, which is a fact, and you keep trying to argue that HT isn't as important for gaming as people say. The only one that lacks nuance here, is you.

I did a rise of the tomb raider test with HT on & off on my 7700K,& in Geothermal valley a known cpu heavy area the I7 7700k with HT on got 54.29 min FPS while the 7700k with HT off got 17.33 min FPS its helps at least in that area. 

[stephena]

On 26/06/2017 at 11:32 PM, Sniperfox47 said:

Also keep in mind, that CPUs can recieve microcode from the OS after boot... which is why one of the suggested options for solving it is to just install the microcode package from non-free. Why isn't this suggested very loudly? Because this is Debian and, like Fedora, they hate non-free.

The Debian project don't hate non-free stuff that much. Heck, they have a non-free repo. They just respect your right to avoid all such software.

If you want to talk about hating non-free software... Richard M Stallman disagrees with the Debian Project because they make it too easy to install non-free software.

Quote

RMS: Non-free programs are not officially considered "part of Debian",
but Debian does distribute them. The Debian web site describes non-free
programs, and their ftp server distributes them. That's why we don't
have links to their site on www.gnu.org.

Stallman has been called a lighthouse: on the dark waters of software freedom, when you don't know where to be, he lights the way, but you do NOT want to be there!

[Sniperfox47]

41 minutes ago, stephena said:

The Debian project don't hate non-free stuff that much. Heck, they have a non-free repo. They just respect your right to avoid all such software.

If you want to talk about hating non-free software... Richard M Stallman disagrees with the Debian Project because they make it too easy to install non-free software.

Stallman has been called a lighthouse: on the dark waters of software freedom, when you don't know where to be, he lights the way, but you do NOT want to be there!

I don't disagree with anything you said. RMS is a bit of an odd duck, and I definitely don't agree with the FSF's definition of freedom. I also agree that Debian doesn't actively discourage non-free solutions but they definitely don't encourage them where free alternatives are viable.