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zMeul

Ryzen segmentation faults when compiling heavy GCC Linux loads

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Posted · Original PosterOP

sources:

people that do heavy compiling under GCC have found that Ryzen is spewing up segmentation faults

so far, people that compile LLVM / CLANG haven't reported this issue

 

Quote

As a software guy, I compile a lot of code, and occasionally gcc crashes with a segmentation fault for no obvious reason. I seem to remember that the problem also manifested as illegal instruction errors sometimes but I'm not sure about that anymore.. I have a Ryzen 1800X CPU and Asus Prime B350-Plus mainboard with UEFI BIOS 0609 (latest). My RAM is on the QVL and running at 3200 MHz but that shouldn't matter.
There is a lot of information in this thread to which I did not contribute: Gentoo Forums :: View topic - Segfaults during compilation on AMD Ryzen.
I'll summarize it: Different people, different gcc versions, different optimization levels, different software compiled, different RAM clocks including very low ones, different Ryzen models and mainboard models, Some of them tried swapping several pieces of hardware to no avail.

 

what is a segmentation fault?

it a segmentation fault happens when a program tries to write or read to/from an "illegal" memory location; and what I mean by illegal memory location is when the program tries to read/write to/from a non-existent element

to put in common term for all people to understand - it's like reading from a book that has white pages from time to time and the story doesn't make any sense

 

so far AMD doesn't know what's causing it - thus, no solution yet

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How prevalent is GCC in professional use? I can think of a few, but not many.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

How prevalent is GCC in professional use? I can think of a few, but not many.

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Linux Kernel compiled under GCC? that's pretty fucking big

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Just now, zMeul said:

correct me if I'm wrong,

I'm hoping that was rhetorical considering:

Just now, zMeul said:

but isn't the Linux Kernel compiled under GCC?

Just now, zMeul said:

that's pretty fucking big

That would be big if true, though. The Linux community must be trying to fix the release of the decade for AMD, if so.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
4 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

I'm hoping that was rhetorical considering:

I do not know for sure, I don't wake up in the morning with the smell of fresh baked Linux Kernel

in case of Ryzen it might smell like smoldering bakelite xD

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31 minutes ago, zMeul said:

I do not know for sure, I don't wake up in the morning with the smell of fresh baked Linux Kernel

in case of Ryzen it might smell like smoldering bakelite xD

GCC is arguably the most important single C++ compiler in use today, so yeah this is a really big deal.

 

ESP in acedemia where otherwise ryzen has the chance to replace MUCH more expensive intel clusters. Although if the issue doesn't occur as well with threadripper, then things aren't all hopeless.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, Curufinwe_wins said:

ESP in acedemia where otherwise ryzen has the chance to replace MUCH more expensive intel clusters. Although if the issue doesn't occur as well with threadripper, then things aren't all hopeless.

it's the same arch - of course it has the same issues

even more so when the issues are discovered well after the new CPUs were taped out

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5 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Although if the issue doesn't occur as well with threadripper, then things aren't all hopeless.

1

I assume that would be rather unlikely as the AMD's entire CPU stack based off Ryzen are all architecturally very similar from what I understand. Therefore the issue would most likely persist across all their CPUs if it is an issue in the architecture. For AMDs sake I hope it is an issue that can be fixed with a firmware update or AMD's reputation in the professional space could be quite seriously affected.


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Better fix this before thread ripper


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Just keeping this here as a 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"Segmentation fault" is the error message you get 99% of the times you fail at compiling something :P There are many, many different mistakes and problems that can lead to the same error message.

The fact that only one compiler is having issues probably points to how said compiler handles some instruction set. I'd indeed would rather phrase it as "GCC having problems compiling in Ryzen" than the current title - the fix probably lies on the compiler side.

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Or maybe stop hating on AMD and its probably a bug in GCC ever tought of that? very rarely happens to be a hardware bug, and 99.9% of the time is software bugs.

I really doubt that years in the making amd didnt test GCC, freaking gcc, they probably have tools and software that they compile with GCC themselves.

If its a hardware bug, it must be a really tought one to find, i cant see how such a bug would get past QA, if all other software works fine it means its a software bug inside GCC compiler implementation for ryzen.

These are generic x86 arch cpu's, if it were a hardware bug a lot more programs would crash with segfault.

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14 minutes ago, yian88 said:

Or maybe stop hating on AMD and its probably a bug in GCC ever tought of that? very rarely happens to be a hardware bug, and 99.9% of the time is software bugs.

I really doubt that years in the making amd didnt test GCC, freaking gcc, they probably have tools and software that they compile with GCC themselves.

If its a hardware bug, it must be a really tought one to find, i cant see how such a bug would get past QA, if all other software works fine it means its a software bug inside GCC compiler implementation for ryzen.

These are generic x86 arch cpu's, if it were a hardware bug a lot more programs would crash with segfault.

How is stating a fault of computer hardware and discussing the possible repercussions it has "hate"? 


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14 minutes ago, yian88 said:

Or maybe stop hating on AMD and its probably a bug in GCC ever tought of that? very rarely happens to be a hardware bug, and 99.9% of the time is software bugs.

I really doubt that years in the making amd didnt test GCC, freaking gcc, they probably have tools and software that they compile with GCC themselves.

If its a hardware bug, it must be a really tought one to find, i cant see how such a bug would get past QA, if all other software works fine it means its a software bug inside GCC compiler implementation for ryzen.

These are generic x86 arch cpu's, if it were a hardware bug a lot more programs would crash with segfault.

All new or radically different instruction sets have a pretty poor track record of flawless original implementation. (AVX etc etc)

 

But yeah probably something at worst a micro-code patch can fix.


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15 minutes ago, ScootsMcgoots said:

How is stating a fault of computer hardware and discussing the possible repercussions it has "hate"? 

Because there is nothing to support the claim that it is a hardware issue. @zMeulis known for his anti AMD propaganda, and this is yet an agenda driven newspost.

Read this article: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd-ryzen-znver1&num=1 As you can tell, these things takes a lot of development, trial and error and testing. It's is precisely for that reason, this issue was found to begin with. It will be fixed soon I'm sure. 

 

Now IF it is a hardware fault, it will be corrected in an upcoming AGESA update like all other Ryzen erratas so far.

 

Addendum: This problem seems to be focused on the Gentoo distro only, and seems to be fixed by disabling OPcache in the BIOS. As such, it's obviously not a hardware fault, as it doesn't manifest other places. Should be fixed by Gentoo soon I'm sure.


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How about current games for Windows? Or Benchmarking tools? If GCC is that famous for C++, there should be some studios and companies using it...

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25 minutes ago, swizeus said:

How about current games for Windows? Or Benchmarking tools? If GCC is that famous for C++, there should be some studios and companies using it...

You won't hear larger groups complaining, as there isn't a commercial version of Ryzen that fully supports desirable features like ECC memory. Nor would they jump onto a new platform that fast anyways, unless it's a well validated lineup, such as Xeon. They'll probably be on platforms like Sandy/Ivy Bridge, Haswell, or Broadwell, the HEDT variants.

Small groups/ indie devs also aren't likely to be using Ryzen if they've been doing it prior to Ryzen, on a fairly capable system either.


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1 hour ago, Notional said:

Because there is nothing to support the claim that it is a hardware issue. @zMeul

Where did he say it was a hardware issue? He said that this happens on the Ryzen platform, but from what I can tell he does not say that the issue lies with the AMD hardware. 

One popular theory right now is RAM issues caused by the memory controller, but more testing needs to be done before drawing any conclusions. 

 

1 hour ago, Notional said:

Addendum: This problem seems to be focused on the Gentoo distro only, and seems to be fixed by disabling OPcache in the BIOS. As such, it's obviously not a hardware fault, as it doesn't manifest other places. Should be fixed by Gentoo soon I'm sure.

1) It's not a Gentoo specific issue. It has been replicated on Ubuntu too. The reason why it's mostly Gentoo users posting about it is because Gentoo is one of the most popular distro which compiles things such as updates from source rather than downloading pre-compiled ones. 

 

2) Disabling the micro-Op Cache has been confirmed to not fix the issue for all users. For some users it fixes it, for some the amount of errors goes down but not all of them, and for some there is no difference.

Even if it did fix the issue, it would still be a really bad situation because being able to disable the micro-Op cache is a pretty rare feature, and it has a huge impact on performance. Sure it might fix the errors, but it would also reduce performance by something like 20%. 

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1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

You won't hear larger groups complaining, as there isn't a commercial version of Ryzen that fully supports desirable features like ECC memory. Nor would they jump onto a new platform that fast anyways, unless it's a well validated lineup, such as Xeon. They'll probably be on platforms like Sandy/Ivy Bridge, Haswell, or Broadwell, the HEDT variants.

Small groups/ indie devs also aren't likely to be using Ryzen if they've been doing it prior to Ryzen, on a fairly capable system either.

Fair enough. It is a norm to have ECC memory paired with Xeons anyway, and, though I haven't read any article regarding AMD's side, I haven't heard any youtubers saying either threadripper or Epyc needed ECC memories in the first place. Interesting. Hopefully AMD resolves this as I am hoping some competition. Just as it is, AMD has shaken Intel, to immediately adjust their roadmap and do a seemingly reckless move just to respond...

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Just now, swizeus said:

Fair enough. It is a norm to have ECC memory paired with Xeons anyway, and, though I haven't read any article regarding AMD's side, I haven't heard any youtubers saying either threadripper or Epyc needed ECC memories in the first place. Interesting. Hopefully AMD resolves this as I am hoping some competition. Just as it is, AMD has shaken Intel, to immediately adjust their roadmap and do a seemingly reckless move just to respond...

Epyc will need ECC memory if AMD wants it to compete with Intel's Xeon. But as it stands, the issue only need be fixed on Epyc as far as first gen Zen is concerned, though it should be fixed entirely for Zen+ and fixing it on Ryzen wouldn't be percieved as a bad thing by anyone with an IQ.


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3 hours ago, zMeul said:

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Linux Kernel compiled under GCC? that's pretty fucking big

Usually yes, but you should be able to use something else as well. Given that other compilers don't have this issue I would tend to blame it on a bug in GCC rather than in ryzen itself, but it would need quite a bit of investigating to be sure.

 

Regardless, it's a relatively big issue that definitely needs solving. If it's ryzen I hope it's just a firmware bug rather than an architectural flaw of some kind.

 

-edit-

gotta love people coming on your news threads just to comment on your supposed anti amd bias even though the post contains no personal opinions from you.


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-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

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A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

Spoiler

From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

Spoiler

A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

Spoiler

Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

Spoiler

Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

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If it was "only" a software error, then the problem should be easily reproducible on a given system. The reports seem to suggest that it is hit and miss, changing some settings have helped for some but not all users.

 

I'm not too bothered by this. It is probably some edge case, Intel has their share of those too. For example, there was the Skylake AXV bug found by people stress testing Prime95 in a non-optimal performance way. Similarly Ryzen already has had an AVX bug detected by other software, which has already been identified and fixed.


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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600

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Several people have reported that turning off ASLR fixes the issue. 

DragonflyBSD noticed this issue a while ago and implemented a workaround which seems to work. Here is the developers explanation:

 

Quote

Hi, Matt Dillon here. Yes, I did find what I believe to be a hardware issue with Ryzen related to concurrent operations. In a nutshell, for any given hyperthread pair, if one hyperthread is in a cpu-bound loop of any kind (can be in user mode), and the other hyperthread is returning from an interrupt via IRETQ, the hyperthread issuing the IRETQ can stall indefinitely until the other hyperthread with the cpu-bound loop pauses (aka HLT until next interrupt). After this situation occurs, the system appears to destabilize. The situation does not occur if the cpu-bound loop is on a different core than the core doing the IRETQ. The %rip the IRETQ returns to (e.g. userland %rip address) matters a *LOT*. The problem occurs more often with high %rip addresses such as near the top of the user stack, which is where DragonFly's signal trampoline traditionally resides. So a user program taking a signal on one thread while another thread is cpu-bound can cause this behavior. Changing the location of the signal trampoline makes it more difficult to reproduce the problem. I have not been able to completely mitigate it. When a cpu-thread stalls in this manner it appears to stall INSIDE the microcode for IRETQ. It doesn't make it to the return pc, and the cpu thread cannot take any IPIs or other hardware interrupts while in this state.

The bug is completely unrelated to overclocking. It is deterministically reproducable.

I sent a full test case off to AMD in April.

Since the addresses used are randomized (for security reasons) it happens quite sporadically. You might get lucky and none of the higher addresses gets used, in which case you will be fine, or you might get unlucky and the higher addresses gets picked in which case you run into errors.

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19 minutes ago, Sauron said:

-edit-

gotta love people coming on your news threads just to comment on your supposed anti amd bias even though the post contains no personal opinions from you.

 

Well, he does hate AMD (self admitted), but you're right, news is news and some people just can't handle their beloved company having issues of any description. So they try and deflect with either half truths or by attacking the OP or another company.   


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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17 minutes ago, porina said:

If it was "only" a software error, then the problem should be easily reproducible on a given system. The reports seem to suggest that it is hit and miss, changing some settings have helped for some but not all users.

Well, actually when a problem is hard to reproduce in different systems, it sounds like a software error. Especially if messing around with settings changes the outcome...

I mean, let us think about it for a minute: if there is a piece of software that may need to track down changes in new CPUs and how they work, that is compilers...

I remember that even as a user of their compiler you could get a CPU architecture handbook from Intel ^_^

 

17 minutes ago, porina said:

 

I'm not too bothered by this. It is probably some edge case, Intel has their share of those too. For example, there was the Skylake AXV bug found by people stress testing Prime95 in a non-optimal performance way. Similarly Ryzen already has had an AVX bug detected by other software, which has already been identified and fixed.

I wouldn't even put this in the same category: a bug executing certain instruction is closer to a hardware problem than a compiler failing to produce working code.

 

33 minutes ago, swizeus said:

Fair enough. It is a norm to have ECC memory paired with Xeons anyway, and, though I haven't read any article regarding AMD's side, I haven't heard any youtubers saying either threadripper or Epyc needed ECC memories in the first place. Interesting. Hopefully AMD resolves this as I am hoping some competition. Just as it is, AMD has shaken Intel, to immediately adjust their roadmap and do a seemingly reckless move just to respond...

You can already use ECC RAM with Ryzen, if paired with the right motherboard. It's just limited to unbuffered ECC RAM, just like the FX CPUs, but that was expected. Not sure if any HEDT platform has any support for other forms of server RAM.

Registered ECC RAM is what you typically find in servers, but I expect that to be limited to Opterons or whatever they call them now and server chipset motherboards, like it's been in the past.

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Posted (edited) · Original PosterOP
4 hours ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Well, actually when a problem is hard to reproduce in different systems, it sounds like a software error. Especially if messing around with settings changes the outcome...

+ @Sauron

that's not how it works

the FW you talk about is actually the arch implementation

 

and it doesn't mean that only GCC is the only one affected, it means that's the only one that exhibits it as far as is known

 

according to this doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gzniXYcXm1uACXGoBLpbpq54KE6SlHxQ6M_wPnTkub8/edit#gid=950983791

the bug is exhibited trough out diff GCC versions, diff Linux kernels , with diff AGESA versions and with different compiler flags

 

ps: this user here https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/955368-some-ryzen-linux-users-are-facing-issues-with-heavy-compilation-loads?p=955393#post955393

sais he saw it with CLANG

Edited by zMeul
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