Intel X299 CPU's NOT soldered!

[PCGuy_5960]

21 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

Honestly though I'm surprised that they didn't at least solder the higher end SKUs. The dies should be large enough to make it feasible. Intel has soldered dies around 200 mm^2 in the past. 

29 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

As the dies get smaller, the issue increases.

 

I believe that @Enderman and @DocSwag know more.

Soldering is definitely possible in the case of Skylake-X, the die is large enough 

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

[mynameisjuan]

I dont get why people get their panties up in a bunch over this. Like if the max temps with a decent cooler are below TJMAX and it doesnt throttle when pinned out then who the fuck cares

[Humbug]

3 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

I dont get why people get their panties up in a bunch over this. Like if the max temps with a decent cooler are below TJMAX and it doesnt throttle when pinned out then who the fuck cares

Obviously people want optimal heat transfer from the CPU die to the heatsink... Otherwise you don't get the best use of your CPU cooler.

 

So it affects fan speeds, noise levels, overclocking...

[Sauron]

What, did you expect to get good overclocks on these? pffffft

[DocSwag]

10 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Soldering is definitely possible in the case of Skylake-X, the die is large enough 

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

yeah I woulda expected that they woulda soldered everything except the Kaby Lake-X CPUs. I guess not...

[Master Disaster]

Of course Intel are doing this, I mean why wouldn't they want you destroying your warranty and potentially destroying your $2000 CPU just to get those extra 100Mhz. Hey, you broke it Buddy, wanna replacement? Another $2000 please.

 

Right now Intel be like

 

laughing all the way to the bank at the rich chumps who keep throwing thousands of dollars at them.

 

Remember people, 5 years ago $2000 would have got you the screamingly fastest balls to the wall gaming PC on the market, these days it will barely buy you a CPU.

[PCGuy_5960]

1 minute ago, DocSwag said:

yeah I woulda expected that they woulda soldered everything except the Kaby Lake-X CPUs. I guess not...

I think that the 14+ core CPUs will be soldered tho.... They are probably doing this on the 12- core parts so that they can be (somewhat) competitive with AMD. AMD's CCXs allow them to make cheaper dies, Intel doesn't use CCXs so they have to cut a few corners to make the CPU a bit more affordable

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

I think that the 14+ core CPUs will be soldered tho.... They are probably doing this on the 12- core parts so that they can be (somewhat) competitive with AMD. AMD's CCXs allow them to make cheaper dies, Intel doesn't use CCXs so they have to cut a few corners to make the CPU a bit more affordable

That affordability you speak about doesn't translate to lower prices at the tills though does it. The shareholders get it while for customers prices just keep going up and up.

 

Its not just Intel either, I feel that the hardware manufacturers have deliberately manipulated the gaming hardware market into a position where they can add an extra 0 to the price simply because it flashes and has "Gaming Ultra +" printed on the box.

[VagabondWraith]

Welp... looks like Phase Change cooling it is.  

[MageTank]

25 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

I dont get why people get their panties up in a bunch over this. Like if the max temps with a decent cooler are below TJMAX and it doesnt throttle when pinned out then who the fuck cares

People that overclock, people that care about longevity, people that experiment with various form factors, people that like to run lower fan RPM's for better acoustics. Basically, the majority of consumers.

 

Also, define "doesn't throttle when pinned out". I can make any CPU throttle when running newer Linpack, lol.

[Vode]

34 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Soldering is definitely possible in the case of Skylake-X, the die is large enough 

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

What's this talk about the die being large enough about?

 

What about the Core2Duo E8600?

[PCGuy_5960]

Just now, Vode said:

What's this talk about the die being large enough about?

If the die is too small it can't be soldered

[mynameisjuan]

23 minutes ago, MageTank said:

People that overclock, people that care about longevity, people that experiment with various form factors, people that like to run lower fan RPM's for better acoustics. Basically, the majority of consumers.

 

Also, define "doesn't throttle when pinned out". I can make any CPU throttle when running newer Linpack, lol.

First a majority of customers dont give two shits about overclocking and longevity as OC doesnt give you back worth what you put into it and even at max temps CPUs still last years, well past a normal upgrade cycle. Secondly, these chips are going to most likely run hot and a huge majority of the owners will have liquid cooling to keep them cool (soldered or not) so noise will not be that big of an issue. Form factor is about all I can agree with, but any hot chip is hard to run in a small form factor, even though it would be cool.

 

And for throttling when pinned out, I am talking real world usage, not synthetic garbage.

[MageTank]

Just now, mynameisjuan said:

First a majority of customers dont give two shits about overclocking and longevity as OC doesnt give you back worth what you put into it and even at max temps CPUs still last years, well past a normal upgrade cycle. Secondly, these chips are going to most likely run hot and a huge majority of the owners will have liquid cooling to keep them cool (soldered or not) so noise will not be that big of an issue. 

 

And for throttling when pinned out, I am talking real world usage, not synthetic garbage.

Woah, take it easy man. If the majority of costumers didn't care about overclocking, they wouldn't be buying these specific SKU's. If all they cared about was core counts, they would be investing in Xeons. Secondly, there are tons of consumers that care about longevity. Have you even lingered in this sub-section at all? Plenty of threads asking if OCing will kill components, and people asking for "specific lifespans" of overclocked components. I spent a large majority of my time here convincing people that vDIMM cannot kill IMC's, so believe me, people do care.

 

Also, Intel begs to differ with your claims. They even list 70C as a "deteriorating thermal load" for their CPU's: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/desktop-6th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.html (look for their tCase study under their TTVT profiles). Thermal runaway doesn't cease to exist just because a maximum junction limit is imposed. Your CPU will draw more power the hotter it gets, and in doing so, it will diminish it's lifespan. If you think people do not care about this, you are being naive.

 

Also, liquid cooling does absolutely nothing if the temperatures it reaches after thermal equilibrium are still too high. You certainly won't see any CLC's cooling these chips well enough under heavy loads, and custom loops will certainly require some effort to dump that heat somewhere. If you think liquid cooling alone is enough to keep them cool "soldered or not", then you've clearly never tried with the 7700k. I know people that have, and even on custom loops, it's held back without a delid when overclocked. @done12many2 That loop of yours is mighty strong, come provide your thoughts on this subject.

 

Either way, there is no getting around the fact that at stock clocks, without being soldered/delidded, these chips are going to throttle hard under "real world" loads. After all, it's still 14nm Skylake/Kaby, it's not like we got another magical die shrink. As I've said before, I highly doubt the higher end SKU's won't be soldered, as Intel's engineers would have to know better by now. If it's a single large monolithic die, the risk from soldering would be nearly nonexistent. If they went with an MCM design like AMD is doing with Threadripper, then yields would be higher, and they would probably be able to better transfer the heat across the entirety of the IHS itself. We won't know until some psychopath delids the biggest, baddest X299 chips to confirm or disprove this theory. 

[Valentyn]

2 minutes ago, MageTank said:

WWe won't know until some psychopath delids the biggest, baddest X299 chips to confirm or disprove this theory. 

Keep an eye on Der8auers youtube channel. He's already delidded KabyLake X, and one Skylake X.

Hopefully he get his hands on the 18core version as well. It would be idiotic for intel not to at least Solder that monster.

[MageTank]

Just now, Valentyn said:

Keep an eye on Der8auers youtube channel. He's already delidded KabyLake X, and one Skylake X.

Hopefully he get his hands on the 18core version as well. It would be idiotic for intel not to at least Solder that monster.

Oh, I've seen that video, and I'll definitely be waiting for another. On a side note...

 

My friend brought up a very funny point. Intel is bringing back the 980XE with the 7980XE. EVGA just showed off an X299 motherboard that looks very X58 Bloodrage-ish. We've almost come full circle, lol. 

[DocSwag]

1 hour ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

I think that the 14+ core CPUs will be soldered tho.... They are probably doing this on the 12- core parts so that they can be (somewhat) competitive with AMD. AMD's CCXs allow them to make cheaper dies, Intel doesn't use CCXs so they have to cut a few corners to make the CPU a bit more affordable

I doubt soldering actually costs that much more tho  

 

If they don't do it on the 14+ core CPUs though that'd be really weird. It's already strange seeing the 6-12 core parts not being soldered, if those aren't then idk.

 

Someone on the r/amd subreddit was telling me that Intel didn't actually stop soldering their CPUs because of smaller dies, but rather because they're using thinner substrates (to save costs) which can bend from thermal expansion of the solder. It does kinda make sense if you think about the fact that Intel has been using thinner substrates recently and that the old Pentiums were around 130 mm^2 or so but were soldered. At the same time though, it was on the r/amd so I'm not sure if they were making it up or not, as they could be biased .

[mynameisjuan]

Just now, MageTank said:

Woah, take it easy man. If the majority of costumers didn't care about overclocking, they wouldn't be buying these specific SKU's. If all they cared about was core counts, they would be investing in Xeons. Secondly, there are tons of consumers that care about longevity. Have you even lingered in this sub-section at all? Plenty of threads asking if OCing will kill components, and people asking for "specific lifespans" of overclocked components. I spent a large majority of my time here convincing people that vDIMM cannot kill IMC's, so believe me, people do care.

 

Also, Intel begs to differ with your claims. They even list 70C as a "deteriorating thermal load" for their CPU's: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/desktop-6th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.html (look for their tCase study under their TTVT profiles). Thermal runaway doesn't cease to exist just because a maximum junction limit is imposed. Your CPU will draw more power the hotter it gets, and in doing so, it will diminish it's lifespan. If you think people do not care about this, you are being naive.

 

Also, liquid cooling does absolutely nothing if the temperatures it reaches after thermal equilibrium are still too high. You certainly won't see any CLC's cooling these chips well enough under heavy loads, and custom loops will certainly require some effort to dump that heat somewhere. If you think liquid cooling alone is enough to keep them cool "soldered or not", then you've clearly never tried with the 7700k. I know people that have, and even on custom loops, it's held back without a delid when overclocked. @done12many2 That loop of yours is mighty strong, come provide your thoughts on this subject.

 

Either way, there is no getting around the fact that at stock clocks, without being soldered/delidded, these chips are going to throttle hard under "real world" loads. After all, it's still 14nm Skylake/Kaby, it's not like we got another magical die shrink. As I've said before, I highly doubt the higher end SKU's won't be soldered, as Intel's engineers would have to know better by now. If it's a single large monolithic die, the risk from soldering would be nearly nonexistent. If they went with an MCM design like AMD is doing with Threadripper, then yields would be higher, and they would probably be able to better transfer the heat across the entirety of the IHS itself. We won't know until some psychopath delids the biggest, baddest X299 chips to confirm or disprove this theory. 

If people do care that much I just havent seen it. Thats just my ignorance I guess. I know people will care about OC killing their CPU but that more of over volting it but if people actually do care and ask about longevity then thats my bad. I have seen some 2600ks and 3770ks still alive that are OCd and held at 100c for at least 12hours a day everyday and they are still running strong and its been years. It is a concern but I have yet to see one bite the dust, but, I know of only 5 CPUs that are reaching almost max that are still in operation so my sample is just because of bias. If it happens more often then that is just my ignorance. 

 

With cooling I havent had any experiencing cooling the 7700k mostly because I had no interest in the chip and just didnt care. If its that hard to cool then my bad. But what is considered cool and are these being OC? Or is it seen with non-OC chips as well?

 

Like I said, if its my ignorance than I can take the blame. I just have a bias after watching person after person that I know buy HEDT, throw a decent cooler on it and call it a day. I dont know any of them that OCed or even cared much about life or temps.

 

 

[done12many2]

1 hour ago, mynameisjuan said:

I dont get why people get their panties up in a bunch over this. Like if the max temps with a decent cooler are below TJMAX and it doesnt throttle when pinned out then who the fuck cares

47 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

First a majority of customers dont give two shits about overclocking and longevity as OC doesnt give you back worth what you put into it and even at max temps CPUs still last years, well past a normal upgrade cycle. Secondly, these chips are going to most likely run hot and a huge majority of the owners will have liquid cooling to keep them cool (soldered or not) so noise will not be that big of an issue. Form factor is about all I can agree with, but any hot chip is hard to run in a small form factor, even though it would be cool.

 

And for throttling when pinned out, I am talking real world usage, not synthetic garbage.

 

As pointed out by @MageTank, being at or near TJunction at stock clocks and voltages is not the same as being near TJunction with an overclock / higher voltages.  The amount of current run though the chip at at stock voltages pales in comparison to that of higher voltages.  Everyone on LTT thinks that voltages kill CPUs and that's not the complete truth at all.  It's the current behind the voltages that kills CPUs.  Voltage is nothing more then potential.

 

As heat increases, so do voltage requirements.  As voltage increases, so does current (amperage) for any given load.  As voltage and current increase, so does heat.  See how the cycle goes full circle?  The one thing we can try to do to break this cumulative cycle of one adding to the other is to increase cooling capacity and keep temps under control.  If we cool it better, voltage requirements drop and the rest of the stuff in that cycle follows suit.  

 

A chip run at 1.45v with 90c constant temps (lower then throttle point) will die a hell of a lot faster then a chip run at 1.2v with 90c constant temps given the same load type.  The amount of current running through the 1.45v example would be insane compared to that of the 1.2v example.  

 

Think of a CPU as a fuse in a circuit.  Run too much current through that fuse and it's going to pop regardless of temp.  

[PCGuy_5960]

4 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

I doubt soldering actually costs that much more tho  

It probably doesn't, but cost is the only thing I can think of that could possibly make them not solder the CPUs...

5 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

If they don't do it on the 14+ core CPUs though that'd be really weird. It's already strange seeing the 6-12 core parts not being soldered, if those aren't then idk.

If the 14+ core CPUs aren't soldered, they should be sold delidded

6 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

Someone on the r/amd subreddit was telling me that Intel didn't actually stop soldering their CPUs because of smaller dies, but rather because they're using thinner substrates (to save costs) which can bend from thermal expansion of the solder. It does kinda make sense if you think about the fact that Intel has been using thinner substrates recently and that the old Pentiums were around 130 mm^2 or so but were soldered. At the same time though, it was on the r/amd so I'm not sure if they were making it up or not, as they could be biased .

I wouldn't really trust the AMD subreddit for information on Intel CPUs TBH

And let me explain why I think that this is not true: 

• Ivy bridge/Haswell/Devils Canyon/Broadwell weren't soldered and they had "normal" substrates
• Broadwell-E also has a thinner substrate, but it is soldered
• Skylake-X has 2 substrates so I don't think that the thinner substrate(s) would have been an issue TBH
• I trust der8auer more than a random guy on the AMD subreddit: http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

[AnonymousGuy]

18 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

I doubt soldering actually costs that much more tho  

 

If they don't do it on the 14+ core CPUs though that'd be really weird. It's already strange seeing the 6-12 core parts not being soldered, if those aren't then idk.

 

Someone on the r/amd subreddit was telling me that Intel didn't actually stop soldering their CPUs because of smaller dies, but rather because they're using thinner substrates (to save costs) which can bend from thermal expansion of the solder. It does kinda make sense if you think about the fact that Intel has been using thinner substrates recently and that the old Pentiums were around 130 mm^2 or so but were soldered. At the same time though, it was on the r/amd so I'm not sure if they were making it up or not, as they could be biased .

The substrate was made thinner to make laptops and shit thinner.  It had nothing to do with cost savings.

[Vode]

1 hour ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

If the die is too small it can't be soldered

I know people have been saying that. But the C2D E8600 is 102mm2 and soldered.

 

Is it about the subrate too?

 

 

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

If people do care that much I just havent seen it. Thats just my ignorance I guess. I know people will care about OC killing their CPU but that more of over volting it but if people actually do care and ask about longevity then thats my bad. I have seen some 2600ks and 3770ks still alive that are OCd and held at 100c for at least 12hours a day everyday and they are still running strong and its been years. It is a concern but I have yet to see one bite the dust, but, I know of only 5 CPUs that are reaching almost max that are still in operation so my sample is just because of bias. If it happens more often then that is just my ignorance. 

 

With cooling I havent had any experiencing cooling the 7700k mostly because I had no interest in the chip and just didnt care. If its that hard to cool then my bad. But what is considered cool and are these being OC? Or is it seen with non-OC chips as well?

 

Like I said, if its my ignorance than I can take the blame. I just have a bias after watching person after person that I know buy HEDT, throw a decent cooler on it and call it a day. I dont know any of them that OCed or even cared much about life or temps.

 

 

The 7700k is harder to cool due to multiple factors. It's fin pitch is different than any previous Intel CPU, it's clock speeds are higher (both stocked and OC'd) than most previous architectures, and it's voltage/current tolerance is far different than anything we've ever seen before. Factoring all of this in, we get a very hot product if zero precautions are taken. So much so, that it's the first time that I've personally seen Intel come out and say "Don't OC our unlocked CPU's". 

 

Even with a custom loop, your overclocking is quite limited when working with a non-delidded 7700k. Thermals have a very direct impact on clock stability, and can help make higher overclocks stable with less voltage. This is why we get concerned when we see products that we know are going to run hot (due to exact same architecture, similar base clock speeds, and magnitudes higher core counts) but the same inferior TIM is being used. 

 

If you want another example of people caring about thermals, look no further than AVX. It's extremely efficient math, and as an instruction set, it's very versatile. Yet, with that level of efficiency (meaning more of your CPU resources are being used), you are bound to see higher thermals as a result. I believe it was DIRT that experimented with AVX in a game, and people were not happy with their temperatures being higher as a result. The end-user doesn't factor in that more heat doesn't automatically equate to a bad thing, as it's not just a sign of poor cooling, but that it can also be a sign that you are actually using more of your CPU. Because of this, most developers stay away from using instruction sets that may stir up a commotion for consumers and their "pseudostable" overclocks. This will end up with me ranting about software stagnation, so i'll try to leave it at that. 

 

4 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

The substrate was made thinner to make laptops and shit thinner.  It had nothing to do with cost savings.

I thought it was due to superior signalling. Can't remember where I read that, but I do recall it being brought up somewhere. Either way, don't use power tools on these thin substrates when securing heatsinks. God knows we don't need another "bend-gate", lol.

[PCGuy_5960]

Just now, Vode said:

I know people have been saying that. But the C2D E8600 is 102mm2 and soldered.

 

Is it about the subrate too?

Idk. It could have to do with the manufacturing process as well.... The E8600 is 45nm vs the 7700K which is 14nm 

[Dylanc1500]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Of course Intel are doing this, I mean why wouldn't they want you destroying your warranty and potentially destroying your $2000 CPU just to get those extra 100Mhz. Hey, you broke it Buddy, wanna replacement? Another $2000 please.

 

Right now Intel be like

 

laughing all the way to the bank at the rich chumps who keep throwing thousands of dollars at them.

 

Remember people, 5 years ago $2000 would have got you the screamingly fastest balls to the wall gaming PC on the market, these days it will barely buy you a CPU.

Don't forget Skulltrail. $1500 a piece and required two and another $650 for the motherboard. If account for inflation it puts it at roughly $4200.