Cheaper File Server Challenge

[samiscool51]

16 minutes ago, Windows7ge said:

1. To my knowledge when something is made by a manufacturer and it will only fit in a specific system or work application it is referred to as proprietary.

 

2. Regardless of how adequate a file server's hardware is I've heard that true redundancy is having triplicate copies of all your data on three different systems. I follow this to an extent. I currently have a 3 Drive RAID5 as my current backup to my desktop's RAID0 and then periodically I'll create a cold storage drive where I update all the information from my archive to a single large capacity drive which I leave un-attached. One time I did end up having to recover using the cold storage drive because both my RAID's failed at once.

1. true to a point, but servers have to have maximum compatibility, it's like older systems having ethernet and modem, both were in use and to achieve maximum compatibility, they have to support both standards

2. no, redundancy is having multiple copies of a volume and it's contents on many storage devices, thats just RAID in general (i can't remember what level does that level of protection though).

 

it's annoying to deal with it but after it's done it's worth it for your usecase

i have only worked as a IT admin for 4-5 years, and the most annoying part is to figure out what server option is better for an organization

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, samiscool51 said:

i have only worked as a IT admin for 4-5 years, and the most annoying part is to figure out what server option is better for an organization

And making sure the sales guy isn't trying to up sell you to something you don't actually need.

[Windows7ge]

5 minutes ago, Jarsky said:

All that said though, I totally agree that for small businesses and home use - if you want new hardware and have the technical support or ability then custom built is the way to go as far as value for money. Bare in mind if you can't fix it and require an engineer, im going to charge you through the roof to fix it 

The point of the thread is targeting small business or home gamers. Even I built my own server and proxy both using server boards with functions such as IPMI which I love and wish was standard on consumer boards. I know on more enterprise levels of hardware and businesses the support when something goes wrong is great but as I also mentioned previously smaller businesses often don't even utilize the warranties or services that come with the servers. So I'd opt to get my monies worth over buying something they built.

[samiscool51]

Just now, leadeater said:

And making sure the sales guy isn't trying to up sell you to something you don't actually need.

every time, once this d**k though i was an idiot and explained the standards of ECC and how it worked, he got it wrong (as expected) so i corrected him by saying:

ECC doesn't work that way, it detects and fixes the most common types of internal data corruption. don't talk to me like i don't know what i doing, even one of my co-workers prob has more knowledge about your computer than you... so don't try and talk dumb to me, i have a f**king diploma in tech so i clearly know what i'm talking about! just tell me the damn specs and what options are available to us!

 

such a d**k

[Windows7ge]

8 minutes ago, Blebekblebek said:

sure it will be cheaper for your client, but your "maintenance" cost will be higher than what you sell.

I'm speaking for people who could do this themselves. I'm not talking about making money off of people by convincing them to built their own and expect me to maintenance it. What I recommend does require some background knowledge which I think people need to educate themselves on because I've spoken to way too many people who can't figure out how to perform basic operations with a computer. Let alone open one up.

[Blebekblebek]

2 minutes ago, Windows7ge said:

I'm speaking for people who could do this themselves. I'm not talking about making money off of people by convincing them to built their own and expect me to maintenance it. What I recommend does require some background knowledge which I think people need to educate themselves on because I've spoken to way too many people who can't figure out how to perform basic operations with a computer. Let alone open one up.

And where you get these type of client?
Because if this is the requirement to be your client, they won't need your services in first place.

[Windows7ge]

11 minutes ago, samiscool51 said:

1. true to a point, but servers have to have maximum compatibility, it's like older systems having ethernet and modem, both were in use and to achieve maximum compatibility, they have to support both standards

2. no, redundancy is having multiple copies of a volume and it's contents on many storage devices, thats just RAID in general (i can't remember what level does that level of protection though).

 

it's annoying to deal with it but after it's done it's worth it for your usecase

i have only worked as a IT admin for 4-5 years, and the most annoying part is to figure out what server option is better for an organization

I'm just pointing out that Dell like to design their tower motherboards in a way that they don't fit a standard like ATX or E-ATX

 

You misunderstand the point I was making. I'm not referring to the RAID as redundancy but that I have the same exact data on 3 completely separate systems.

 

Also you might be thinking of RAID1 which mirrors the drives.

[Windows7ge]

5 minutes ago, Blebekblebek said:

And where you get these type of client?
Because if this is the requirement to be your client, they won't need your services in first place.

I have a question...why do you speak like you think I own a business trying to make money from doing this kind of work?

[samiscool51]

Just now, Windows7ge said:

1. I'm just pointing out that Dell like to design their tower motherboards in a way that they don't fit a standard like ATX or E-ATX

 

2. You misunderstand the point I was making. I'm not referring to the RAID as redundancy but that I have the same exact data on 3 completely separate systems.

 

Also you might be thinking of RAID1 which mirrors the drives.

1. oh sorry, thought you were talking about something else, sorry!

2. oh! oops, i might need to brush up on my reading skills, i starting to misread things and misinterpret them

3. no, RAID one creates a array with the data copied on both sides (if you get what i mean) what you were talking about having the data on three separate systems isn't possible without support from the operating system, hardware can't do that, it's completely software

i don't think it's possible in windows without needing a lot of configuration, linux has it supported and can be configured to copy the data directly (like how linus showed us how to improve speeds from your main system to your server with a ethernet cable)

[Windows7ge]

12 minutes ago, samiscool51 said:

every time, once this d**k though i was an idiot and explained the standards of ECC and how it worked, he got it wrong (as expected) so i corrected him by saying:

ECC doesn't work that way, it detects and fixes the most common types of internal data corruption. don't talk to me like i don't know what i doing, even one of my co-workers prob has more knowledge about your computer than you... so don't try and talk dumb to me, i have a f**king diploma in tech so i clearly know what i'm talking about! just tell me the damn specs and what options are available to us!

 

such a d**k

I like it when I get a call or e-mail trying to scam me saying something is wrong with my computer. It's fun screwing with them.

[samiscool51]

2 minutes ago, Windows7ge said:

I like it when I get a call or e-mail trying to scam me saying something is wrong with my computer. It's fun screwing with them.

been there, done that, did it with a bare bones version of linux with a f**k load of viruses that screwed with the system (things like moving the mouse cursor around etc.)

[Blebekblebek]

1 minute ago, Windows7ge said:

I have a question...why do you speak like you think I own a business trying to make money from doing this kind of work?

Not necessarily, I'm just asking it as it is, since you start with recomending a more value server for small company.

 

it's takes times and effort to do something, and you are trying to solve a problem that will cost you personally for no reason.

I understand helping and such, but I don't see how is this could work in long run.

 

[Windows7ge]

4 minutes ago, samiscool51 said:

1. oh sorry, thought you were talking about something else, sorry!

2. oh! oops, i might need to brush up on my reading skills, i starting to misread things and misinterpret them

3. no, RAID one creates a array with the data copied on both sides (if you get what i mean) what you were talking about having the data on three separate systems isn't possible without support from the operating system, hardware can't do that, it's completely software

i don't think it's possible in windows without needing a lot of configuration, linux has it supported and can be configured to copy the data directly (like how linus showed us how to improve speeds from your main system to your server with a ethernet cable)

It's all good. You're not the first to read my posts too quickly. Believe me.

 

The way my storage works is less than recommended. I'll break it down for you:

The server running FreeNAS is in a raidz1 (RAID5) configuration, that's one copy of all my data, one drive can fail etc etc...

My PC is running two drives in RAID0 which is arguably 1 full copy of all my data

Then in cold storage on a large capacity drive I have 1 more full copy in the event of catastrophic failure and it's all that remains.

3 separate copies and no software keeps everything up to date...I do it all manually...not recommended...

[Windows7ge]

6 minutes ago, Blebekblebek said:

Not necessarily, I'm just asking it as it is, since you start with recomending a more value server for small company.

 

it's takes times and effort to do something, and you are trying to solve a problem that will cost you personally for no reason.

I understand helping and such, but I don't see how is this could work in long run.

 

Education. If one person reads this thread and learns something about there being alternative options besides always buying something pre-build then my job is done. It's the whole point of the thread. Like leadeater mentioned you could buy a bare bones unit and upgrade it yourself. Right there you could save a bunch of money and still have your service warranties if they're that important.

[Blebekblebek]

1 minute ago, Windows7ge said:

Education. If one person reads this thread and learns something about there being alternative options besides always buying something pre-build then my job is done. It's the whole point of the thread. Like leadeater mentioned you could buy a bare bones unit and upgrade it yourself. Right there you could save a bunch of money and still have your service warranties if they're that important.

Sure I understand that

However this method only works on personal level, not business.

On business side, one way or another they have to pay/hired someone to keep maintain the server anyway, even on basic level. if both is not possible then the owner have to educate them self for these matter.

 

Maybe I'm getting this the wrong way, but since you start your thread with business perspective, I can't help my self to go that route.

[domandric034]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

One of the reasons I say buy a base server is if you are looking to build something rackmount with redundant PSUs you can get that cheaper from Supermicro as a basic sever than building it yourself. Sometimes you can get things like CPUs cheaper that way too, sometimes not. Also if you need rackmount getting something from Supermicro means it'll actually fit standard racks unlike Norco as an example.

 

Another factor is an insurance company is more likely to pay out properly on a HP/Dell/Supermicro server that has a full CTO quote etc if something happens.

 

As you pointed out it really does come down to what the requirements are and what level of internal support ability the company has to maintain that type of system and build it in the first place.

 

One thing I do object to with these types of price comparisons is building the custom systems out of very nonequivalent components that are not rated for server usage, however if that is all you need then go for that.

 

@domandric034 @WMGroomAK system builds are what I would call a fair and equivalent build to a basic HP/Dell/Supermicro server. If I see anything based around an ASRock/Asus etc motherboard that is an instant step down in my opinion as those really aren't server motherboards and have issues with RAID cards and network cards.

 

Also even software RAID can fail in much the same way as described, all you need is for the HBA to overheat and start writing garbage to the disks and it'll break even ZFS.

 

Edit:

Also nothing beats used servers on ebay, those are all excellent and cheap options and will run for many more years. Large businesses replace servers when the warranty expires not because it has no more service life left in it.

I just remembered linus's video on raid failure on whonnock. ASUS is okay but ASRock nah brah that is not too good.

Only brands for servers are Supermicro and ASUS. 

Everything you said in that post was correct and very informative.

[Windows7ge]

37 minutes ago, Blebekblebek said:

Sure I understand that

However this method only works on personal level, not business.

On business side, one way or another they have to pay/hired someone to keep maintain the server anyway, even on basic level. if both is not possible then the owner have to educate them self for these matter.

 

Maybe I'm getting this the wrong way, but since you start your thread with business perspective, I can't help my self to go that route.

It's circumstantial but a viable option. Just trying to teach people that they don't always have to follow the crowd. As far as big business goes what I've been talking about isn't recommended. Larger businesses shouldn't do this unless they have a employee or group of employees dedicated to the task of computer/server maintenance.

[samiscool51]

1 hour ago, Windows7ge said:

3 separate copies and no software keeps everything up to date...I do it all manually...not recommended...

oh god....

[Windows7ge]

10 minutes ago, samiscool51 said:

oh god....

I use to have some decent software that backed it up for me but it was only a 30 day free trial and I'm not willing to spend money on software when that's the only function I'm using it for. It did work nicely though. I think I set it for every 24 hours it'd compare my RAID0 array to my RAID5 file server then copy file to the RAID5 accordingly. Deleting files off the RAID5 if I removed them from the RAID0 though I don't think it did.

[Jarsky]

1 hour ago, Windows7ge said:

The server running FreeNAS is in a raidz1 (RAID5) configuration, that's one copy of all my data, one drive can fail etc etc...

Thats a parity bit, for calculating what the data would have  been, not a copy of your data. 

1 hour ago, Windows7ge said:

My PC is running two drives in RAID0 which is arguably 1 full copy of all my data

RAID0 does not provide any redundancy, I think you mean RAID1?

 

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Jarsky said:

Thats a parity bit, for calculating what the data would have  been, not a copy of your data. 

RAID0 does not provide any redundancy, I think you mean RAID1?

 

There's actually a couple of rules I think people should follow regarding that 3-2-1 backup rule.

• If it's synchronous and not versioned it cannot count as a copy in the 3-2-1 rule.
• If it's synchronous and versioned it cannot count as the off site copy

Using those rules means no RAID level can count as a copy in 3-2-1 and replication needs to be handled carefully.

[Windows7ge]

15 minutes ago, Jarsky said:

RAID0 does not provide any redundancy, I think you mean RAID1?

No, it's RAID0 for performance. It's arguably 1 copy because technically each drive contains half a chunk of data that makes up a file so each drive alone isn't one copy. That's why I said it's arguably 1 copy. The whole purpose of the RAID5 server is as backup of my RAID0 in case something goes wrong. Soon now the RAID5 will be replaced with a RAID6 as soon as the drives arrive.

 

19 minutes ago, Jarsky said:

Thats a parity bit, for calculating what the data would have  been, not a copy of your data. 

You seem to have misunderstood what I meant. I wasn't referring to the RAID5 configuration itself as being 1 copy of my data. I was referring to the RAID5 as in the entire array of drives which makes up 1 copy of my data. I have a general understanding of how parity disks work. I know a parity disk isn't a copy of ones data. I should have clarified that post a bit more.

[ChalkChalkson]

21 hours ago, Windows7ge said:

Here's the challenge. Go to a typical brand server website that sells file servers (Dell, HP, etc) and post here how much cheaper you could build it yourself or how much better you could build it for the same asking price of theirs.

Well, when you buy a pre-built server the actual hardware isn't really all you pay for

[Windows7ge]

9 minutes ago, ChalkChalkson said:

Well, when you buy a pre-built server the actual hardware isn't really all you pay for

"I understand the asking price of these companies come with insurances..." - As you seem to have missed it in the original post.

[ChalkChalkson]

3 minutes ago, Windows7ge said:

"I understand the asking price of these companies come with insurances..." - As you seem to have missed it in the original post.

That is also not the only thing, you see, for many people a solution becomes infinitely more valuable if you promise them they never need to touch it again

Just to be clear, I think the asking price is still pretty high and maybe even unfair, but the pure fact that theses companies sell in large volumes to big customers who have their own IT department proves that this price is in some way justified.

Just to be clear though I am the last person to recommend such a solution to your uncle