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Windows S can run anything from the Windows store......Except Linux

Misanthrope
Just now, Sauron said:

You can't even use a proper office suite on WS. That's an instant disqualification from any school use, at least for now. No user benefits from using WS over normal windows. They may simply not suffer as much. What "questionable" executables could you possibly run to compromise the whole school? Even stuff like WannaCry isn't a problem if the computers are up to date. The worst that can happen is a dead windows install, which can be restored by a technician in 20 minutes.

You can use Office when they get around to releasing it on the store, from my understanding I don't think you can even get Windows 10 S yet? Not really following that anymore since I'm no longer in that type of role anymore.

 

Blocking of standard applications isn't really something I care about or would really market as a feature, I only care if it's cheaper making the device cheaper which is really the only reason for Windows 10 S to exist.

 

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

My point is not that schools should go and use linux everywhere, but rather that WS is a direct downgrade from literally anything including many free (to install) systems. It makes no sense to seek it out over regular windows. And once again, the two things you mentioned (browsing the internet and using a document editor) are both gimped on WS.

If you move to Linux you lose centralized common management platform which is a huge factor, either move everything to Linux or stick with Windows. Whenever you start mixing operating systems on a network management overhead goes up a lot. On networks that were Windows and Mac OS for example the Mac support time was easily 5 times that of Windows, some of that is due to Mac just having terribly broken management framework but a lot of it has to do with the network being Windows based and not Mac native. Schools that were solely Mac were much easier than mixed schools. 

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8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It is hard to see the benefits that Windows brings if you've never been in a role managing networks for over a thousand people, across multiple clients, and you have a level 1 desktop support team of over 100 people.

I've never been in that role either. I just can think outside of my needs and wants.

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If I were to choose something not Windows in similar case it would be Mac OS and not Linux.

Despite my severe hatred of Apple, I'd probably use OSX in that situation as well. Okay, I wouldn't use it, because I'm fairly certain that any Apple made Mac would ignite in the cleansing fire of a vengeful me, and I can't hackintosh unofficial hardware. I'm not that cruel.

 

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

You can't even use a proper office suite on WS.

The roles where WS seems to be intended to be used, are ones where Office Online is more than sufficient.

 

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

No user benefits from using WS over normal windows.

When you need a tightly controlled environment (such as schools do), you can't turn to operating systems that allow for installation/execution of programs from outside sources. Windows, every version of Linux (including Android), OSX, BSD, Unix, they all allow that. That leaves the following options: iOS, Windows CE, Windows RT.

 

Here's why those 3 don't work.

iOS only comes on phones and tablets, and is far from optimal for use with word processing.

Windows CE doesn't have any real progams available to it, it's a basic platform designed to be modified to specific tasks, typically, in industrial environments.

Windows RT can't run Win32 code at all, even from the store.

9 minutes ago, Sauron said:

What "questionable" executables could you possibly run to compromise the whole school? Even stuff like WannaCry isn't a problem if the computers are up to date.

A) Middle schoolers don't know jack shit about browsing the internet in ways to mitigate risks, and there is nothing stopping them from trying to run a game they downloaded from a sketchy site off of a USB.

B) Larger networks don't typically stay up to date, many school systems included. Those updates have to be tested by the IT department before they just start pushing them, as it's more disasterous that their dozens to thousands of system have issues pertaining to a faulty update than you or me having them on one system.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Despite my severe hatred of Apple, I'd probably use OSX in that situation as well. Okay, I wouldn't use it, because I'm fairly certain that any Apple made Mac would ignite in the cleansing fire of a vengeful me, and I can't hackintosh unofficial hardware. I'm not that cruel.

Haha I hear you there, Mac often makes me rage way more than it should :P.

 

 

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Just now, leadeater said:

Haha I hear you there, Mac often makes me rage way more than it should :P.

 

 

It's nothing to do with OSX itself. For what it is, it's fairly good (bring this up, and I'll deny it vigorously). However, I hate Apple's business practices, especially Jobs', with a vehement passion.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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Explain to me why an elementary school student requires a Linux Terminal in their computer? Like for real, Windows 10 S isnt meant for people that need this stuff, its meant for school users who /dont/ need this stuff

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On 2017-5-20 at 4:01 PM, vorticalbox said:

Google takes more telemetry than anyone, far from "no strings attached". 

source?

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8 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Because you're not a target audience member, and you can't see far past your needs/wants of a computing system. Few people can.

 

Windows S can easily fit into the role of district supplied machines for more basic tasks, without allowing the users to run questionable executables from outside the store. That's something that can be circumvented with every other version of Windows, which becomes more of a problem as students become more knowledgeable. It'll also play more nicely with most schools existing systems than things like Chromebooks.

 

7 hours ago, leadeater said:

Now I just need to find a way to agree to your comment 99 more times :).

 

It is hard to see the benefits that Windows brings if you've never been in a role managing networks for over a thousand people, across multiple clients, and you have a level 1 desktop support team of over 100 people. If I were to choose something not Windows in similar case it would be Mac OS and not Linux.

In this case wouldn't Microsoft be better allocating the resources towards fixing W10 and the networking tools/GPOs instead of creating a new SKU to try and fix a problem nobody ever had?

 

It wouldn't exactly be hard for them to add a W10S policy to the GPO that turned existing 10 installs into the S SKU allowing admins much finer control over hardware.

 

Also I find this whole debate to be a little moot as we're talking about schools here, most of them can barely afford to buy a new laptop per class let alone buy entire pallets of laptops so every child has their own. I'd wager that less than 5% of schools on Earth are actually running Windows 10 in any capacity at all. These machines are aimed more at parents buying for their children than schools buying for classes and in those cases the machines are never going near a network admin.

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13 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Also I find this whole debate to be a little moot as we're talking about schools here, most of them can barely afford to buy a new laptop per class let alone buy entire pallets of laptops so every child has their own. I'd wager that less than 5% of schools on Earth are actually running Windows 10 in any capacity at all. These machines are aimed more at parents buying for their children than schools buying for classes and in those cases the machines are never going near a network admin.

Actually technology wise here in NZ most schools are very well up to date and are running Windows 10 or are about to upgrade. Many schools also have multiple class sets of laptops, all rather common here.

 

Edit:

It's also very common around here to have full wireless coverage using either Ruckus or Aruba equipment, typically in the area of $30k-60k NZD all installed and configured.

 

The company I used to work at we would generally install 2-3 IBM x3650 M(x) servers,IBM DS3524/V3700 storage array, VMware Essentials Plus, QNAP backup NAS, Allied Telesis x900 core switch, Fortigate 600C firewall, Aruba 3600 wireless controller and AP-x35 access points to cover the school.

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1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Actually technology wise here in NZ most schools are very well up to date and are running Windows 10 or are about to upgrade. Many schools also have multiple class sets of laptops, all rather common here.

 

 

Same here in Aus, for all the whinging and carrying on many people do, our schools are actually very well equipped with even our poorest schools running 1 win 10 laptop or tablet per 4 students.   If S actually drops the unit price and brings something to the table for IT staff (or lack there of as it's the only weakness in the system) then we might see some schools with one device per 2 students. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

It wouldn't exactly be hard for them to add a W10S policy to the GPO that turned existing 10 installs into the S SKU allowing admins much finer control over hardware.

They are already doing that.

Regular Windows has or is in the process of getting features to turn machines into Windows 10S machines.

 

(In before it becomes the default options in a few years, and then become mandatory in the even more distant future)

 

The only appeal Windows 10S will have, is save you like an hour of work when making your deployment image, and possibly lower prices. Judging by the Microsoft store prices will not be affected. In fact, if you go to the Windows 10 devices designed for students list, the ones on there are currently being sold with Windows 10 Pro, and once 10S gets released they will start being sold with 10S. It does not say that prices for the 10S version will be lower, so it might just straight up be a downgrade for the same price.

I also doubt that they will be able to shave off a lot of money from the 189 dollar laptops that today comes with Windows 10 Pro.

 

That's before you mention the extreme lack of programs (not even Office right now) as well. Even ChromeOS is more useful.

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36 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

They are already doing that.

Regular Windows has or is in the process of getting features to turn machines into Windows 10S machines.

 

(In before it becomes the default options in a few years, and then become mandatory in the even more distant future)

 

The only appeal Windows 10S will have, is save you like an hour of work when making your deployment image, and possibly lower prices. Judging by the Microsoft store prices will not be affected. In fact, if you go to the Windows 10 devices designed for students list, the ones on there are currently being sold with Windows 10 Pro, and once 10S gets released they will start being sold with 10S. It does not say that prices for the 10S version will be lower, so it might just straight up be a downgrade for the same price.

I also doubt that they will be able to shave off a lot of money from the 189 dollar laptops that today comes with Windows 10 Pro.

 

That's before you mention the extreme lack of programs (not even Office right now) as well. Even ChromeOS is more useful.

That's intentional, it allows MS to push Office 365 subs using the web based office applications. I'm also expecting S laptops to ship with small SSDs (or even eMMC) so MS can push One Drive Pro sales up too.

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4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

In this case wouldn't Microsoft be better allocating the resources towards fixing W10 and the networking tools/GPOs instead of creating a new SKU to try and fix a problem nobody ever had?

 

It wouldn't exactly be hard for them to add a W10S policy to the GPO that turned existing 10 installs into the S SKU allowing admins much finer control over hardware.

Again, there's the possibility to circumvent the GPO, plus that's just more work to put on a school's IT department, which in the US, is typically one guy per school.

4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

most of them can barely afford to buy a new laptop per class let alone buy entire pallets of laptops so every child has their own.

Schools here buy systems in waves, every year for a few classrooms/computer labs. Each system costs them roughly $500 or so, whereas 10S will likely be used  on systems closer to the $200-300 mark.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

That's intentional, it allows MS to push Office 365 subs using the web based office applications. I'm also expecting S laptops to ship with small SSDs (or even eMMC) so MS can push One Drive Pro sales up too.

Maybe, but Office 365's desktop application requires a subscription too, right?

So it's not like they will make more money by using the web based applications over the proper ones.

Windows 10S laptops will have low storage capacity for sure, but I think that will be to maximize profits rather than to get OneDrive subscriptions. I don't think OneDrive subscriptions will be the sole reason (although it will probably be one).

 

 

19 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Again, there's the possibility to circumvent the GPO, plus that's just more work to put on a school's IT department, which in the US, is typically one guy per school.

How do you circumvent GPOs like these ones exactly?

No, it's not really more work. You will want an image for easy deployment regardless, and it requires next to no effort (and it's a one time thing) to just enable the GPO to block non-store programs.

 

19 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Schools here buy systems in waves, every year for a few classrooms/computer labs. Each system costs them roughly $500 or so, whereas 10S will likely be used  on systems closer to the $200-300 mark.

Check the link I posted earlier. There are already 200-300 dollar laptops running Windows 10 Pro. According to Microsoft's own website, those same laptops will start shipping with Windows 10S later. They might cut prices slightly when that happens, but as it stands right now it seems like not much will change in terms of prices.

 

 

If you're expecting a 200-300 dollar price drop just because of Windows 10S then you will get disappointed. 

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Jeez, you'd think the Windows 8 "RT" edition would have taught MS a lesson. Its arguably what caused Steve Ballmer to resign.

 

But no... here we are again. Its like MS needs to push out a shitty Beta OS before they can refine it into an OK os.

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1 minute ago, Qub3d said:

Jeez, you'd think the Windows 8 "RT" edition would have taught MS a lesson. Its arguably what caused Steve Ballmer to resign.

 

But no... here we are again. Its like MS needs to push out a shitty Beta OS before they can refine it into an OK os.

Except RT ran on ARM chips, which means software would need to be recompiled (or worse, partially rewritten) to run on it. W10s is W10 with a switch flicked & much more software.

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47 minutes ago, pipnina said:

Except RT ran on ARM chips, which means software would need to be recompiled (or worse, partially rewritten) to run on it. W10s is W10 with a switch flicked & much more software.

Software still needs to be recompiled and rewritten to run on Windows 10S. 

Even for win32 programs packaged as UWP you still need to make some changes (some more complicated than others).

 

Also, I would not be so sure about Windows 10S having more software than Windows RT.

The number of apps might have increased, but that's mostly because the store is now full of scams, "guides" and other such things. The number of apps people actually want seems to have stayed about the same since the RT days.

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5 hours ago, anthonyjc2010 said:

Windows RT is not the same as 10S. Windows RT was designed to run on ARM, and therefore could not use Win32 simply because of the architecture (granted, ARM SOCs are powerful enough now to emulate Win32, but back then they were not). It (Windows RT) was a good idea in theory, but in practice it was not. The Windows Store was not popular at the time and Microsoft tried to force you into using it. Windows 10S is another attempt at forcing people to use the store. 

The bold statements are exactly why I see this as a repeat of Windows RT. I do agree things are a little different, but this ham-fisted attempt to build a userbase is a problem MS has run into at least three times now - I see little to change that from happening again.

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On 5/20/2017 at 11:57 PM, Windspeed36 said:

However, where they are let down at the moment is the integration of applications on devices. Through InTune, it's very difficult to deploy applications that aren't native to the Windows Store and thus can only really be deployed by an on premise domain controller via group policy. If you've got 99% of your environment in the cloud, you don't really want to keep a DC on prem purely to publish apps to devices. Sure, if it's a brand new device you could use SCCM & image the device but if it's already deployed, it's a pain.

I swear intune is pretty simple to deploy software from, assuming you have a .msi file (or an .exe to a lesser extent)...

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2 minutes ago, Blake said:

I swear intune is pretty simple to deploy software from, assuming you have a .msi file (or an .exe to a lesser extent)...

It can be quite a pain to do it - somewhat hit and miss.

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I'd run Windows 10 S on my Yoga Book, because it kinda struggles with full Windows but I need one specific program to work, which is not on the Store, and it won't have any drivers beyond the built in ones, which of course won't run the keyboard/drawing surface.

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2 hours ago, Qub3d said:

The bold statements are exactly why I see this as a repeat of Windows RT. I do agree things are a little different, but this ham-fisted attempt to build a userbase is a problem MS has run into at least three times now - I see little to change that from happening again.

Difference between this and RT is what you can do online these days. For example, everything the company I design for does is done through a browser. So there's no installs, no centrally managing people's machines and whatever. Email is online, the programs are all online, timesheets are online. 
Beyond that, word processing is fully featured through a browser, and most people could easily transition to an in-browser workflow (like people already do with Chrome OS). The only thing a fully featured OS is good for is if you need specific apps (i.e. photo/video editing, various IDEs etc).

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Isn't the new surface supposed to use 10 S

 

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On 2017-5-21 at 11:41 PM, leadeater said:

 

 

Your forgetting that a lot of high schools will likely be buying devices that will likely have Windows 10 S on them and would like to be able to manage them in much the same way as they already do for their other Windows devices in the school. Free isn't no cost, there is a difference. TCO is an actual thing and includes more than just software licenses.

 

Laptop devices aren't just used as personal devices or personally owned so the requirements are different depending on who you are and how the device will be used. Many schools over hear have multiple class sets of laptops that can be booked so when you're buying them in the 100+ quantities saving $50 per device isn't something to write off as insignificant.

 

As the most common usage of computers in high school is browsing the internet and using a document editor fully featured Windows isn't really required, higher education requires the more advanced applications. Typically schools will also have dedicated labs of higher spec computers for Adobe Suite etc.

Yes, if a school buys them in bulk for their pupils then Windows 10 S is the better choice. However if you're a Unviversity/College student then the Surface Pro/M3/3 are the ones to go for, as they are pretty much made for students.

Here in the UK colleges/universities don't really buy in laptops for their students to use. And I'm not really sure if schools buy them for their pupils, the last I knew of were iPads being used; then again I don't think the school will be buying £900+ devices for children to use.

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4 hours ago, Lazmarr said:

Yes, if a school buys them in bulk for their pupils then Windows 10 S is the better choice. However if you're a Unviversity/College student then the Surface Pro/M3/3 are the ones to go for, as they are pretty much made for students.

Here in the UK colleges/universities don't really buy in laptops for their students to use. And I'm not really sure if schools buy them for their pupils, the last I knew of were iPads being used; then again I don't think the school will be buying £900+ devices for children to use.

Yea Windows 10 S isn't going to be very useful for college/university students, not when you need software like matlab. Higher education don't buy devices for students at all, not really a viable option when you have ~35k students.

 

I've got a friend who's parents go over to the UK for 6 months every year to teach and the schools over there are also very well equipped, probably better so than here.

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