Microsoft further cracks down on Kaby Lake and Ryzen usage on Windows 7 and 8.1

[79wjd]

4 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Couple of kinks:

 

It was my understanding that Windows 7 got the telemetry stuff baked in on a later update. I don't mention it cause it's kind of the point of this thread anyway, no updates, but if you are adamant enough about no telemetry a windows 7 install that doesn't gets a chance to update will not have the telemetry, afaik but I could be totally wrong.

 

Second Linux is harder to use but it's usually precisely because very poor manufacturer driver support. The Linux community basically takes care of the enterprise stuff first but the consumer stuff, chief among them GPUs but also webcams, consumer wireless cards, etc. Have abyssal support and often show stopping bugs due to driver installation, free drivers that work around reverse engineering and yes more than a bit of stubbornness in trying to keep Linux free of proprietary stuff (i.e. the most popular distro after Mint, Ubuntu, are damn stubborn at not activating proprietary drivers for GPUs and such by default causing unnecessary headaches for newbies)

 

So actually no I don't think Linux is the solution at all: You'd need a really heavy hitter to get behind it and even when that happened with Valve they basically squandered away all the support and momentum due to their extreme lack of organization and bullshit corporate culture of not fucking delivering on time a.k.a. Valve time killed SteamOS

Yes Telemetry was added at a later date.

 

It's not just driver support, I genuinely don't really like using Linux, but in terms of lacking bloat and what not, it is better.

[Misanthrope]

Just now, djdwosk97 said:

Yes Telemetry was added at a later date.

 

It's not just driver support, I genuinely don't really like using Linux, but in terms of lacking bloat and what not, it is better.

Actually it is driver support. I'll expand on this

 

1) Linux has far too much fragmentation, to a ridiculous degree

 

2) The corporate side is a lot better thanks to players like Redhat that have managed to create a bit of a standard and well the fact that companies actually have money to hire Linux specialists so the unfriendliness is a non-issue

 

My argument is that the fragmentation is basically because nobody in the Linux consumer community can agree on what to do about the lack of driver support. Some projects might get traction but there's never full backing because far too many purists always argue against proprietary drivers, emulation and abstraction, etc. So the fact that the community is already small gets amplified when truly talented people refuse to participate in these projects and start competing ones because of major, minor and sometimes minute differences in how to address the proprietary world and closed source software.

 

That's why the most successful version of Linux ever is Android: Google took it, modified to keep all the fucking nutcases out and managed to offer something usable to hardware manufacturers and devs alike.

[Remixt]

5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Not really.  The problem with Linux is the terminal is required, and API support wouldn't be that simple considering that the most adopted API is made by MS.

Vulkan is ready to take the lead! I'm obviously speculating here because this won't ever happen, but if Microsoft were to disappear we have enough manpower to overcome any limitations currently existing in Linux.

[Drak3]

Just now, djdwosk97 said:

Yes Telemetry was added at a later date.

Not quite 100% accurate. Telemetry has been incorporated into Windows as available hardware became diversified, and that was well before 7. What telemetry data that gets collected has been expanded over time, with updates, but not because of telemetry concerns with Windows 10. It's easier to fix a product when you have more details to what causes an issue or what amplifies an issue, which is why we're now getting fixes for issues that go back to Vista, or earlier.

 

And what's more, this is done with OSX and any Linux Distro with a (relatively) large organization or company behind it. But Microsoft gets flack because they hold the most consumer users, and because it's a sensationalist topic that will generate clicks amongst those (uninformed) users.

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Not quite 100% accurate. Telemetry has been incorporated into Windows as available hardware became diversified, and that was well before 7. What telemetry data that gets collected has been expanded over time, with updates, but not because of telemetry concerns with Windows 10. It's easier to fix a product when you have more details to what causes an issue or what amplifies an issue, which is why we're now getting fixes for issues that go back to Vista, or earlier.

 

And what's more, this is done with OSX and any Linux Distro with a (relatively) large organization or company behind it. But Microsoft gets flack because they hold the most consumer users, and because it's a sensationalist topic that will generate clicks amongst those (uninformed) users.

No that's not what they get flack. They get flack because they forced many into upgrading to Windows 10 often against their will and to their detriment. Apple just basically hides it behind hardware updates, Corporations can do whatever the fuck they want since they're paying you to use the PC for work related things anyway.

 

But Microsoft decided to become heavy handed and not only push Windows 10 hard but become extremely intrusive about it, far beyond their usual tactics like hiding DX versions behind the new version.

 

So if they get more aggressive with telemetry and also get more aggressive about turning it off and get more aggressive into railroading you into upgrading then you have a problem. It's not just 1 thing is everything put together.

[Remixt]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

You would have to completely change the kernel, and that alone is limited.  You can't just have windows clone off Linux without outright infringing on MS's copyright.  And, the reason nobody adopts it is because most of the people using APIs are far more use to using DX.  Given the mentality of a developer, they aren't likely going to just change because you want Vulkan, but rather conform to what they are more comfortable doing.  Because developers are lazy.  I was going for a computer science degree, but changed to Information Systems as I don't feel like doing Math and Physics all day.  We really can be lazy.

Man, why is this turning into a battle lol. I'm saying if Microsoft were to suddenly vanish in some act of Magic - implying that they just wouldn't exist therefore have no property or claim lol. This discussion is going to far!

[Remixt]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

Because then someone would have to buy them, and Linux doesn't really make any real money that could buy them out to avoid copyright infringing because someone would still in someone own it.  Linux alone is not enough to be a clone of Windows due to kernel restrictions.  If you change it too much it wouldn't be Linux anymore.  And, they probably would have just as many restrictions as Windows.  I know what you want, but it's just not possible.

Stop it pleaseeeeeeeeeeee I just wanted to make a joke. =(

[Nowak]

19 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Windows 7 for sure is not under mainstream support. Windows 7 should be under extended support, which means only security updates, no more major feature updates. 

I mean as in Windows 8.1 is under mainstream support. I know that 7 is on extended support.

[flibberdipper]

I'm fine with blocking it on physical machines, but it should be smart enough to look at additional identifiers in virtual machines so that those don't get fucked.

[KingKeith55]

6 hours ago, Remixt said:

God I wish we could globally adopt Linux and push Microsoft into a blackhole.

That will happen the day linux can natively run windows binaries.

 

(never)

 

And I actually like linux. I like it a lot. And I've hated Microsoft ever since Bill Gates left. The problem with linux is, that everything that runs on linux is like B Grade. Great example, you have DirectX on windows, which is a great graphics API, and then on Linux you have OpenGL, which is a pile of garbage (don't lie to yourself). Also half of the programs I use have no good Linux alternative, and not to mention there's not that many games for Linux, and the ones that do run on Linux run much worse than they do on windows.

 

Also another good example is those "Office" programs that are all trying to be Microsoft office, that just end up being worse. You might as well just run Office '97.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eaglerino]

Can't say I really blame them, Windows 7 is losing support in just under 3 years and about as many people use Windows 8 as people who own a Wii U, so why would Microsoft want to put resources to soon-to-be-dead OS's when Windows 10 has all the spying and functionality they want? Plus the convenient cross platform gaming if you own an Xbone which I'm sure is only one step further to having a Netflix-for-games where we rent games instead of own them, and a cloud based OS where we rent the OS instead of own it

[Nowak]

1 minute ago, Eaglerino said:

and a cloud based OS where we rent the OS instead of own it

Per Microsoft's own EULA, you never really "owned" Windows. You were licensed to use it. Same with Apple.

[Misanthrope]

4 minutes ago, Daring said:

Per Microsoft's own EULA, you never really "owned" Windows. You were licensed to use it. Same with Apple.

EULA s are not law and cannot supercede law no matter if they explicitly try. 

[Donut417]

Any new system I build will have Linux on it. Thats not to say Windows wont be installed, but I will be doing my day to day computing in Linux, thats how you get around MS and its spying. Ill even make sure all my data is transferred to EXT format so they cant read any files I have on my system. 

[Nowak]

Just now, Misanthrope said:

EULA s are not law and cannot supercede law no matter if they explicitly try. 

True, EULAs aren't legally enforceable. Still doesn't change the fact that Windows and macOS are licensed rather than sold.

[Misanthrope]

7 minutes ago, Daring said:

True, EULAs aren't legally enforceable. Still doesn't change the fact that Windows and macOS are licensed rather than sold.

They're sold, Microsoft just forces an EULA basically to intimidate users but given enough money to fight them in court they'd lose. 

[Misanthrope]

6 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

They are a contract you agree to.

Pictured: not a contract but a product.

 

 

Microsoft can argue they're giving you access to a licence agreement but it's either a physical or a virtual product (if the key is purchased online for example) but they just want to attempt to pre-emptively discourage most people from even trying to sue.

 

But further proof: that's not all you get when you actually purchase a licence agreement like corporations and even some small to medium businesses do. I should know those contracts were sent to our backoffice where I used to work and those were actual contracts with vastly different terms and conditions and negotiated with more parties involved (usually resellers).

[Misanthrope]

7 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

EULAs are seen in court as contracts.  But, you have 2 problems with them.

 

1)  Enforcing them on a minor as a minor is legally not accountable by contract in most countries by law unless their parents also review and agree to said contract first.

 

2) Enforcing it on everyone.

Well you kinda address it on 1) to start with: Which courts? American law would not apply here for example. But even in America I don't think you can argue you have a contract simply because far too many things are clearly not defined as a contract and you get a physical product (or a virtual one).

 

If you actually want a contract with Microsoft you would name for example a range of products or users within your organization which is not set in stone and you get the ability to generate your own product keys from within the Microsoft website (Found here). You are not just given a key number you get access to generate your own at your own pace. The contract also usually specifies a length of time, a level of support, additional services since they usually push you to bundle other products and services they offer and many do take those too, etc. They even specify if you have to pay for product upgrades and how much or if you want to upgrade your plan later to include more products or more workstations as the organization grows, etc.

 

As I say not just because Microsoft calls it an EULA means it actually is one and henceforth a valid contract.

[cj09beira]

4 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

I understand that, but I don't see why you should expect hardware that wasn't out until years later to be supported. Try to install Jelly Bean on a Galaxy S8 or OS X Mavericks on a 2016 Mac, you're going to have a terrible time. 

thats why there is a standard called x86-64 :-|

[79wjd]

4 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

thats why there is a standard called x86-64 :-|

It's not quite that simple, there's more to it than just a compatible instruction set. Apple also uses x86-64 and Android uses ARM, yet neither update their old OSs to support modern hardware.

[cj09beira]

Just now, djdwosk97 said:

It's not quite that simple. Apple also uses x86-64 and Android uses ARM, yet neither update their old OSs to support modern hardware.

the thing here is that there is no reason to even need an "update" as its running x86 instructions

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

the thing here is that there is no reason to even need an "update" as its running x86 instructions

Android is also running the same ARM instructions. macOS is also running the same x86-64 instructions. 

 

There are drivers that need to be provided by Intel and there is validation testing (and update tweaking) required by Microsoft to ensure compatibility. The instruction set being the same doesn't automatically mean everything will work. 

[cj09beira]

Just now, djdwosk97 said:

Android is also running the same ARM instructions. macOS is also running the same x86-64 instructions. 

 

There are drivers that need to be provided by Intel and there is validation testing (and update tweaking) required by Microsoft to ensure compatibility. 

thats not the same thing, as you don't buy the software and the hardware separately on those platforms, i don't want and wont be buying a new copy of windows each time i upgrade my cpu thats crazy, what i am against is not they not supporting, is they blocking they have no right to block be from using the hardware i want.

Microsoft's new Ceo is leading the company to doom, if they keep this up i will change to linux in a heart-beat only thing keeping me here are the games ( vulkan will help with that).

[79wjd]

8 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

thats not the same thing, as you don't buy the software and the hardware separately on those platforms, i don't want and wont be buying a new copy of windows each time i upgrade my cpu thats crazy, what i am against is not they not supporting,

 

is they blocking they have no right to block be from using the hardware i want.

Microsoft's new Ceo is leading the company to doom, if they keep this up i will change to linux in a heart-beat only thing keeping me here are the games ( vulkan will help with that).

Well, first off you more than likely bought an OEM license (certainly most people in this thread did), so technically you're not allowed to transfer it to new hardware anyway. Secondly, OSX used to be sold and the same limitation still existed. 

 

They have every right considering they license out the content to you. And if they just chose to not support the OS and allow updates then Microsoft support would tell anyone with a problem to fuck off....that's clearly a bad thing, and for the average consumer it would be better for them to not be able to end up in that position to begin with. 

 

You can keep dreaming about Vulkan, but I seriously doubt it'll ever gain serious traction. 

[Drak3]

14 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

thats why there is a standard called x86-64 :-|

x86_64 is an architecture family with a very minimal requirement for what instruction sets are included. It's far from a tech standard.

 

How instruction sets are implemented in a CPU are not standardized (and require separate validation).

Asides from the minimum requirements, additional instruction sets can be used, things like AVX2 or FMA4 (and require separate validation).

Exclusive features (requiring separate validation).

Implementation of features (requiring validation).

 

Both Kaby Lake and Ryzen require separate validation. Ryzen has a decent quip of new features, and Kaby Lake is different enough from Skylake on a technological level to require separate validation, even if Kaby Lake is seen as identical to users.

 

4 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

they have no right to block me from using the hardware i want.

They aren't blocking you from using what ever hardware you want.

 

They're blocking you from getting updates on hardware that isn't validated, and was never guaranteed to be supported in the first place. Any issues that occur when people use an unsupported configuration is a worse PR nightmare than people getting upset that they "can't" run said unsupported configuration, when 90% of them would NEVER have done it. Mainstream support doesn't actually extend to hardware that comes well after an OS's end of sale, of which both Windows 7 and 8 are end of sale.

 

Only reason Windows 7 ever got Skylake support was because OEM end of sale was post Skylake release. Microsoft had contracts with OEMs to support Windows 7 on any and all hardware that they push before 7 end of sale.