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Dutch court rules that Apple cannot supply ‘refurbished or remanufactured’ iPads as warranty replacements

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What should a manufacturer do if a device is not repairable? (and warranty is still applicable)  

247 members have voted

  1. 1. What should a manufacturer do if a device is not repairable? (and warranty is still applicable)

    • They have to give a brand new product.
      154
    • They can give a refurbished model.
      23
    • They have to give a new product but when a certain time has passed after the purchase they can give a refurbished product.
      70


2 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

I'm sorry I don't want the government up my ass, because you can be sure -- if they're up the ass of companies, then they're up yours too. Not to mention that companies account for all these regulations against them by increasing the cost of their products. So it doesn't exactly "help" the consumer if you're paying for it upfront. 

 

90% of the RMA requests I've made have resulted in me getting a refurbished product, and I've yet to have an issue with any of them. This isn't something that is unique to Apple. 

Aren't you from the US? This isn't going to affect you in any way then, since you dont have the same legal guarantees we have. And yes, how terrible that our government is sticking up for the people and not licking the ass of corporations any chance they get. The markup is already astonishing high on all their products. Also you gotta remember that they already included the price of doing replacement in their initial price. This is just apple trying to be cheap where ever they can.

Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

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2 minutes ago, Tomsen said:

Aren't you from the US? This isn't going to affect you in any way then, since you dont have the same legal guarantees we have. And yes, how terrible that our government is sticking up for the people and not licking the ass of corporations any chance they get.

 

The markup is already astonishing high on all their products. Also you gotta remember that they already included the price of doing replacement in their initial price. This is just apple trying to be cheap where ever they can.

Again, if they're up their ass, then they're up yours too. 

 

And the markup for you is even higher. It is the industry standard to give refurbished products -- so all companies have it worked into their margins; it's not a case of Apple being cheap. 

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Just now, djdwosk97 said:

Again, if they're up their ass, then they're up yours too. 

 

And the markup for you is even higher.

Because that makes any sense what so ever.. It sounds slicks, but have no actual thoughts behind them.

 

Yeah, we know that. That is what we are freaking paying for, not to get ripped off.

Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

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Just now, Tomsen said:

Yeah, we know that. That is what we are freaking paying for, not to get ripped off.

And at the end of the day you pay more because you have to subsidize everyone else with a problem. Congratulations. 

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Just now, djdwosk97 said:

And at the end of the day you pay more because you have to subsidize everyone else with a problem. Congratulations. 

They seem fine with it, so what's the problem?

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Just now, djdwosk97 said:

And at the end of the day you pay more because you have to subsidize everyone else with a problem. Congratulations. 

Congratulations, you made a very good point!

We also get payed more, so there is that.

Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

"the last 20 percent – going from demo to production-worthy algorithm – is both hard and is time-consuming. The last 20 percent is what separates the men from the boys" - Mobileye CEO

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Good.

 If a new product fails within its warranty time then you should get a new replacement.

If it fails outside the warranty time THEN they can send you a refurbished unit.

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Typical apple trying to screw customers. You paid for a brand new item and when the its faulty you should get a brand new as replacement not manufacturer refurbs.

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21 minutes ago, ravneillal said:

Typical apple trying to screw customers. You paid for a brand new item and when the its faulty you should get a brand new as replacement not manufacturer refurbs.

Don't pretend like only Apple does this, the majority of companies give refurbished products for RMAs, just look up the warranty agreement of practically any company you want. 

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On 5/2/2017 at 0:41 AM, Energycore said:

I'm all for refurbs provided they guarantee them just as well. Throwing away every refurb device would be a massive waste (not that Apple is a very waste-friendly company).

I agree. There are many benifits to refurb. IMO they should extend the warranty if they hand out refurb (makes the consumer feel more comfortable). There are not to many negatives when handing out refurbs. Also, its not just about saving money and the environment.

 

Also, when apple took my phone, they used it as a test device to find out the issue and how to improve on it. The iphone was not going to be sold again. "there was no damage of any sorts or modification to the device. Keep that in mind for all you guys thinking that they are giving sh*tty products out.

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21 hours ago, ravneillal said:

Typical apple trying to screw customers. You paid for a brand new item and when the its faulty you should get a brand new as replacement not manufacturer refurbs.

I have had many apple products in the past. The only time i had an issue with my device (keep in mind i know no one who had a defective product) was when my iphone 6s camera suddenly stopped working. I walked in the store, spent 5 minutes while they did a test, a moment later they handed me a brand new iPhone the same day. I also own quiet a few refurb/ recertified products that are in perfect condition. IMO they should just increase the warranty period for refurb. There is nothing wrong with a refurb products besides the name "refurb" when it comes to most retail products. 

 

Also, keep in mind Apple has to spend time and money on each device making sure it has no scratches, bugs etc. This is more attention an iphone gets when it is manufactured. 

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Almost every company gives you a refurbished replacement, Microsoft/Dell/Apple/Asus. This ruling will apply for all companies now.

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2 hours ago, NinerL said:

Almost every company gives you a refurbished replacement, Microsoft/Dell/Apple/Asus. This ruling will apply for all companies now.

Extremely few companies do that in the EU, because it's illegal and they will simply get rekt by consumer protection agencies if they try.

 

Apple is one of the most powerful corporations in the world, and it has now been bitchslapped in both Denmark and the Netherlands within a handful of months.

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It should all be dictated by the warranty terms. One way or the other. Extended warranties and insurance can cover outlying situations. Even assuming the device is repairable repairing your broken device is literally just giving you a refurb anyway, it's just a refurb that used to be owned by you rather than someone else.

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8 hours ago, HalGameGuru said:

It should all be dictated by the warranty terms. One way or the other. Extended warranties and insurance can cover outlying situations. Even assuming the device is repairable repairing your broken device is literally just giving you a refurb anyway, it's just a refurb that used to be owned by you rather than someone else.

The conclusion was drawn based on Dutch law. Since the iPad 2 was within warranty (4 months old) she was entitled to a free repair or identical replacement of her iPad 2 and because the issue with the device was not easily fixable Apple was unable to offer her the repair option. Apple then offered her a refurbished model as a replacement which does not fit the description of identical replacement (as required by law), especially considering Apple values its refurbished models at a lower price than brand new ones.

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if your product is less than 3 months old possibly even 6, then you should get a new phone  after that a refurb thats covered for the remainder of what ever warranty is on the product is fine.....as long as it is in the same or better condition as your old phone.

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12 hours ago, Carclis said:

The conclusion was drawn based on Dutch law. Since the iPad 2 was within warranty (4 months old) she was entitled to a free repair or identical replacement of her iPad 2 and because the issue with the device was not easily fixable Apple was unable to offer her the repair option. Apple then offered her a refurbished model as a replacement which does not fit the description of identical replacement (as required by law), especially considering Apple values its refurbished models at a lower price than brand new ones.

Seeing as a repaired device is by definition a refurbed device it is identical to what she would have gotten had they repaired her device. But, once again, this is something to be handled by warranty terms, either contracts are valid and carry weight or they don't. Her device, as a USED device, is no longer worth as much as a new retail device either. The worth of your device is not pegged to the amount you paid for it when it was new. I weep for any car manufacturer when this idiocy moves into vehicle warranties. Where they can last 10 years.

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On 06/05/2017 at 7:54 AM, djdwosk97 said:

Don't pretend like only Apple does this, the majority of companies give refurbished products for RMAs, just look up the warranty agreement of practically any company you want. 

2 words: Fuck Gigabyte.

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4 hours ago, HalGameGuru said:

Seeing as a repaired device is by definition a refurbed device it is identical to what she would have gotten had they repaired her device. But, once again, this is something to be handled by warranty terms, either contracts are valid and carry weight or they don't.

But you have no idea of the condition the device was in before it was returned to Apple. If she barely used the device and kept it in a "like new" condition then she is entitled to one in such condition, but that's too difficult for the law to define. You have to also consider that the warranty is a guarantee that the product will work work the duration of the period it covers and is there to ensure product quality and consumer protection. Now take a quote from Apple regarding their "remanufactured" models:

"Apple switched to what it called ‘remanufactured’ units. The company said that these used the same manufacturing and inspection standards as brand new ones."

Does that not concern you at all? You have parts that could be one or two years old which go through an inspection process which is not good enough to weed out parts that can be DOA. If anything the process for refurbished parts should be more stringent to ensure that the failure doesn't happen again.

4 hours ago, HalGameGuru said:

Her device, as a USED device, is no longer worth as much as a new retail device either. The worth of your device is not pegged to the amount you paid for it when it was new.

The value is associated with a brand new device because it has the manufacturers guarantee/warranty. Sure, the device is worth less if you were going to sell it yourself for some arbitrary reason, but the idea is you have the promise that the product will work for a set period of time. Think about it this way. If a company has so much trouble to reliably get their products to pass a warranty period that they have to start using refurbished products to try and cut their warranty costs down, then what does it say about their quality control?

4 hours ago, HalGameGuru said:

I weep for any car manufacturer when this idiocy moves into vehicle warranties. Where they can last 10 years.

That's pure hyperbole. Nobody would be silly enough to make it a 10 year period.

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24 minutes ago, Carclis said:

-snip-

http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/owners_services/warranty_assistance/warranty/lifetime_warranty_terms.html

 

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/assurance/america-best-warranty.aspx

 

http://www.biggersmitsubishi.com/Lifetime-Powertrain-Warranty

 

We aren't talking about DOA, where you return it to the place you purchased it from for immediate replacement, we are talking about warranty RMA processes. This is a used device going in for repair. And that repair can be for a myriad of ails. Which is why the specifics are less of a concern compared to the terms and agreements involved.

 

Those refurb devices have the same warranty, which in regards to YOUR argument makes them MORE valuable as her device, if repaired would have only had the remainder of her original warranty. Not a brand new warranty. It says far less about their QC than it does about the supply chain. You pull from where you have available units. No retailer wants to miss out on their retail sales for the manufacturer to make warranty claims with devices that were earmarked for them. But they have no problem with refurbed and repaired devices going back into the wild.

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3 hours ago, Jack_of_all_Trades said:

 

How about a new device if your old one fails in 2 years, and a refurb for some % of the cost after that. Why the flying fuck should you get a refurb after 6 months if your $800 device just decides to surrender one glorious day because you had bad luck on the manufacturing line. Why is a minimum life span of 2 years for these premium products such a challenge suddenly ? We are talking hardware failure, not someone handling the device like a primate.

ha deluded much. it dosnt matter how much your item cost, from cheap cameras to expensive bespoke cars, you cant be perfect. even with high QA defects can appear that QA would never catch its just the way it is. to expect perfection in mass production is unreasonable. if your phone is 12 months old when something fails why should you get a new phone.....if your car gets writen off you dont get the value of a new car.....its the same for all insurance and in reality a warranty is a form of insurance.

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1 hour ago, HalGameGuru said:

We aren't talking about DOA, where you return it to the place you purchased it from for immediate replacement, we are talking about warranty RMA processes. This is a used device going in for repair. And that repair can be for a myriad of ails. Which is why the specifics are less of a concern compared to the terms and agreements involved.

You'll find with vehicles that the best approach is almost always a repair, which would have been fine under the circumstances mentioned in this article. Also on the point of vehicles I would be fine with a used replacement because they are held to a much higher standard than phones. That's why their warranty periods look absurd to you, because they back up their claims of quality with an actual warranty/guarantee.

1 hour ago, HalGameGuru said:

Those refurb devices have the same warranty, which in regards to YOUR argument makes them MORE valuable as her device, if repaired would have only had the remainder of her original warranty. Not a brand new warranty. It says far less about their QC than it does about the supply chain. You pull from where you have available units. No retailer wants to miss out on their retail sales for the manufacturer to make warranty claims with devices that were earmarked for them. But they have no problem with refurbed and repaired devices going back into the wild.

Refurbished units having the same warranty means nothing if they are validated the same way that the new units were. The process failed the first time, so what makes it so hard to believe that it would work on a refurbished product? To contradict your claim that retailers are missing out on sales because their new products are fulfilling warranty claims instead, I would say that is exactly the reason a warranty exists. If you have enough problems/defects with a product that supply then becomes an issue you have to seriously reconsider the design and QC process. Warranty claims are a band-aid fix to an issue that should be an extreme minority and cover those devices/products that fail through no fault of the user or manufacturer. As outlined here it it Apples own fault that they have a need to dig into their refurbished product line because their supply is being affected by failures.

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6 hours ago, HalGameGuru said:

Those refurb devices have the same warranty, which in regards to YOUR argument makes them MORE valuable as her device, if repaired would have only had the remainder of her original warranty. Not a brand new warranty.

Unless I'm mistaken the replacement iPhone doesn't have a new warranty -- it continues the warranty you have or extends it 30 days, whichever is longer.

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3 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Unless I'm mistaken the replacement iPhone doesn't have a new warranty -- it continues the warranty you have or extends it 30 days, whichever is longer.

Probably because they've been refurbished units.....that or Apple has no confidence at all in the longevity of their expensive products.....

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On 5/4/2017 at 2:53 PM, Tomsen said:

Congratulations, you made a very good point!

We also get payed more, so there is that.

Unfortunately, numbers of higher pay are greatly exaggerated.  You have to look at the cost of living and average that out with how much takehome vs. payout.

 

You can't say you get paid more when your cost of products is also more.

 

$10 earnings with $1 milk is the exact same as $20 earnings with $2 milk.  

 

$1000 earnings with $400 apartment is the same as $2000 earnings with $800 apartment.

 

If they are the same job and the same paid for product, the increase means nothing.  The term is called 'inflation'.  It's the same as people saying they don't get paid enough.  You're earning $10 an hour at a milk production plant, and want $20.  Once the increase is in place, the company MUST make adjustment and increase price of product from $1 to $2.  the percentage of what your income vs payout for the product has not changed.  Which means increasing your wages was nothing more than placebo.  

 

When tying this to the refurbished products, ANY laws that change how a company can release their products to which it causes an increase in their production cost, that company will increase the cost of their product to compensate.  If they cannot reduce their costs by finding a way to reuse most of their waste product through remanufacture or refurbishing, the increase will be disbursed through the overall cost of their products.  Which means, 1 person who won't accept refurbished product forces the increase cost of a new product to ALL consumers of that product.

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