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CaptainGazzz

Dutch court rules that Apple cannot supply ‘refurbished or remanufactured’ iPads as warranty replacements

What should a manufacturer do if a device is not repairable? (and warranty is still applicable)  

247 members have voted

  1. 1. What should a manufacturer do if a device is not repairable? (and warranty is still applicable)

    • They have to give a brand new product.
      154
    • They can give a refurbished model.
      23
    • They have to give a new product but when a certain time has passed after the purchase they can give a refurbished product.
      70


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39 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Them saving money doesn't make it right.  It's not entitlement when they screwed up which is now false advertising.  They advertised a working product and sent you a broken product or a product that was going to fail then offered you a warranty to replace it.  So, they should give you a new one or you should have the right to sue.  In this case, they lost just for that.

That's not false advertising..... Stuff breaks, and when it does they're required to give you a replacement, which is exactly what they do. 


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10 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

That's not false advertising..... Stuff breaks, and when it does they're required to give you a replacement, which is exactly what they do. 

Of lesser value and it is.  They promised a long working product.  They didn't deliver.  That's why warranties exist in the first place to avoid lawsuits, and being cheap about it leads to lawsuits like this.


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2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Of lesser value and it is.  They promised a long working product.  They didn't deliver.  That's why warranties exist in the first place to avoid lawsuits, and being cheap about it leads to lawsuits like this.

Your six month old phone isn't worth the same amount as a brand new phone. They promised a long working product that they will replace if it has a problem, they promised nothing more. No socialistic entitlement leads to lawsuits like this. 

 

Terms of warranty directly from Apple:

If during the Warranty Period you submit a claim to Apple or an AASP in accordance with this warranty, Apple will, at its option:



(i) repair the Apple Product using new or previously used parts that are equivalent to new in performance and reliability,

(ii) replace the Apple Product with the same model (or with your consent a product that has similar functionality) formed from new and/or previously used parts that are equivalent to new in performance and reliability, or 

(iii) exchange the Apple Product for a refund of your purchase price.

https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/denmark-universal-warranty.html


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2 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Your six month old phone isn't worth the same amount as a brand new phone. They promised a long working product that they will replace if it has a problem, they promised nothing more. No socialistic entitlement leads to lawsuits like this. 

 

Terms of warranty directly from Apple:

 

 

https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/denmark-universal-warranty.html

 
 

Apple doesn't get to change laws of a country.  It's not the consumer's fault that Apple made a faulty product, it's Apple's fault rather you like it or not.


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10 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Apple doesn't get to change laws of a country.  It's not the consumer's fault that Apple made a faulty product, it's Apple's fault rather you like it or not.

Iirc from when this story first started months ago, Dutch consumer protection laws specifically says "new equivalent", which as far as I'm concerned factory refurbished satisfies -- hence the discussion introduced in the original post; just because a court decided something doesn't make it right.

 

Defects happen, that's why warranties exist. When major problems happen (like the gpu on Macs from 2011 dying), that's when things like this should come up.


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1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

Iirc from when this story first started months ago, Dutch consumer protection laws specifically says "new equivalent", which as far as I'm concerned factory refurbished satisfies -- hence the discussion introduced in the original post; just because a court decided something doesn't make it right.

 

Okay, so you're fine with a corporation making something faulty and all you get in return is a returned broken product that they fixed to a degree? K.  I'd rather get back what I paid for, a new product that was guaranteed to work,  as that's a tad more logical since I'm not the one at fault, the corporation is.  It's not my fault the company doesn't have perfect quality checking.


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On 4/26/2017 at 3:45 PM, djdwosk97 said:

A replacement device for a four month old device can be a refurbished device imo. You're no longer giving in a new product, so why should you get a new product as a replacement?

I agree that's why EVGA has a policy that they will only send you a brand new GPU as a replacement within the first 30 days of owning it.


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9 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Okay, so you're fine with a corporation making something faulty and all you get in return is a returned broken product that they fixed to a degree? K.  

 

I'd rather get back what I paid for, a new product that was guaranteed to work,  as that's a tad more logical since I'm not the one at fault, the corporation is.  It's not my fault the company doesn't have perfect quality checking.

If there is a defect across the product line, then a new replacement will also have that same defect unless that defect has been accepted and accounted for -- in which case, the defect would also be fixed in the replacement product. 

 

Again, I paid for MY iPhone, not any iPhone -- just specifically the one I bought. So I should be entitled to a full refund not a warranty replacement -- even if it is a new replacement. 

5 minutes ago, MadyTehWolfie said:

I agree that's why EVGA has a policy that they will only send you a brand new GPU as a replacement within the first 30 days of owning it.

However it's handled, as long as the warranty agreement doesn't specifically say new, then a refurbished device is fine. And that's why I don't have a problem with Apple using refurbished devices -- because there warranty clearly states new equivalent (which is also what Dutch consumer law says iirc -- I'll pull up the actual law when I get home).


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Just now, djdwosk97 said:

If there is a defect across the product line, then a new replacement will also have that same defect unless that defect has been accepted and accounted for -- in which case, the defect would also be fixed in the replacement product. 

 

Again, I paid for MY iPhone, not any iPhone -- just specifically the one I bought. So I should be entitled to a full refund not a warranty replacement -- even if it is a new replacement. 

However it's handled, as long as the warranty agreement doesn't specifically say new, then a refurbished device is fine. And that's why I don't have a problem with Apple using refurbished devices -- because there warranty clearly states new equivalent (which is also what Dutch consumer law says iirc -- I'll pull up the actual law when I get home).

 

No, see they fix them to work to a degree because they only fixed the issue that was claimed in the RMA.  No, the seller themselves won't give you a refund after the first month.  Apple, or any corporation would know the quality and flaws of devices unless they're being extra cheap.  XFX, unlike cheap Apple, will give you a brand new boxed product because that's the right thing to do.  Companies who don't do that are just being cheap to benefit themselves, not you.  I'm not going to change my mind on that, and the Dutch court also agrees with me.  You can claim it's not right, but it's now the law there and the moral of good companies.


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9 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

No, see they fix them to work to a degree because they only fixed the issue that was claimed in the RMA.  

 

No, the seller themselves won't give you a refund after the first month.  

 

Apple, or any corporation would know the quality and flaws of devices unless they're being extra cheap.  

 

XFX, unlike cheap Apple, will give you a brand new boxed product because that's the right thing to do.  Companies who don't do that are just being cheap to benefit themselves, not you.  I'm not going to change my mind on that, and the Dutch court also agrees with me.  You can claim it's not right, but it's now the law there and the moral of good companies.

According to who? According to Apple's warranty agreement, replacements are "formed from new and/or previously used parts that are equivalent to new in performance and reliability". To me that means they validate the device and any components in it -- unless you would like to prove otherwise. 

 

I'm not saying the seller should give me a refund, I'm saying Apple should. I don't want a brand new replacement, I want the EXACT device I bought or my money, even if it's just 1 day shy of owning the device for the full warranty period. This is why the law is ridiculous, you're not turning it a brand new device -- you're turning in a months old device, and therefore shouldn't be eligible for a full refund nor should it be required to be replaced with a brand new device. 

 

They might know about a defect (months later), but that doesn't mean they will accept that the defect exists -- it wasn't until recently that Intel acknowledged the flaw with the Atom C2550d4i boards, meanwhile they kept selling the boards for years with the defect. 

 

No shit they're doing it for their benefit and not mine. But that doesn't change the fact that there is nothing wrong with a refurbished device to replace an old/used device, and you know what, if you're not okay with a refurbished replacement, then don't buy the product -- because it is clearly stated in the warranty agreement that they will give you a new equivalent device. 


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Just now, djdwosk97 said:

According to who? According to Apple's warranty agreement, replacements are "formed from new and/or previously used parts that are equivalent to new in performance and reliability". To me that means they validate the device and any components in it -- unless you would like to prove otherwise. 

 

I'm not saying the seller should give me a refund, I'm saying Apple should. I don't want a brand new replacement, I want the EXACT device I bought or my money, even if it's just 1 day shy of owning the device for the full warranty period. This is why the law is ridiculous, you're not turning it a brand new device -- you're turning in a months old device, and therefore shouldn't be eligible for a full refund nor should it be required to be replaced with a brand new device. 

 

They might know about a defect (months later), but that doesn't mean they will accept that the defect exists -- it wasn't until recently that Intel acknowledged the flaw with the Atom C2550d4i boards, meanwhile they kept selling the boards for years with the defect. 

 

No shit they're doing it for their benefit and not mine. But that doesn't change the fact that there is nothing wrong with a refurbished device to replace an old/used device, and you know what, if you're not okay with a refurbished replacement, then don't buy the product -- because it is clearly stated in the warranty agreement that they will give you a new equivalent device. 

 

There is everything wrong with sending out refurbs.  Because they don't fix every possible issue they only fix the issue listed in the RMA claim form.  The same exact device?  No, they're more likely going to send you another guy's broken device that was fixed to a degree/the issue they claimed was fix meaning they don't check for other issues because they're cheap.  That's most likely part of why the Dutch court ruled in favor of the consumer over the cheap corporation  You expect a company benefitting themselves and being cheap to give you a validated device? That's cute!  No, they're only going to fix a claimed issue, and nothing more.  Your warranty is now over, and once more issues arise have fun dishing out more.  See, that's how corporations work.  It's what benefits them, not you.


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2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

There is everything wrong with sending out refurbs.  Because they don't fix every possible issue they only fix the issue listed in the RMA claim form.  The same exact device?  No, they're more likely going to send you another guy's broken device that was fixed to a degree/the issue they claimed was fix meaning they don't check for other issues because they're cheap.  

 

That's most likely part of why the Dutch court ruled in favor of the consumer over the cheap corporation  You expect a company benefitting themselves and being cheap to give you a validated device? That's cute!  No, they're only going to fix a claimed issue, and nothing more.  Your warranty is now over, and once more issues arise have fun dishing out more.  See, that's how corporations work.  It's what benefits them, not you.

Again, according to who? How do you know Apple doesn't validate all the hardware/components first? 

 

Considering 100% of successful companies make decisions that benefit themselves, yes. 


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Just now, djdwosk97 said:

Again, according to who? How do you know Apple doesn't validate all the hardware/components first? 

 

Considering 100% of successful companies make decisions that benefit themselves, yes. 

 

It's common sense since they're already being cheap.  And, who sets up the validation?  Oh, right..them!


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1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

It's common sense since they're already being cheap.  And, who sets up the validation?  Oh, right..them!

It's not common sense though, and should they just throw out any devices they accept for warranty replacements, that sounds like a terrible idea from every standpoint? The number of used/refurbished sales will never be high enough to account for all the devices they accept under warranties. 

 

If you don't trust their validation techniques in the first place, then again, you shouldn't be buying their products. 


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Just now, djdwosk97 said:

It's not common sense though, and should they just throw out any devices they accept for warranty replacements, that sounds like a terrible idea from every standpoint? The number of used/refurbished sales will never be high enough to account for all the devices they accept under warranties. 

 

If you don't trust their validation techniques in the first place, then again, you shouldn't be buying their products. 

 

I don't buy Apple products because I have no use for them.  And, I don't trust Apple, to begin with, never have.  But if XFX, a company with a smaller budget, can send me a new GPU, boxed never used, then why can't others like EVGA?  Why can't Apple do this with their products if I'm still in warranty?  Oh, that's right it only benefits them because they're cheap. However, with this new law, they're no longer allowed to be cheap about it.  Morality = the reason. Let's leave it at that.


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1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

I don't buy Apple products because I have no use for them.  And, I don't trust Apple, to begin with, never have.  But if XFX, a company with a smaller budget, can send me a new GPU, boxed never used, then why can't others like EVGA?  Why can't Apple do this with their products if I'm still in warranty?  Oh, that's right it only benefits them because they're cheap. However, with this new law, they're no longer allowed to be cheap about it.  

 

Morality = the reason. Let's leave it at that.

XFX also used to offer lifetime warranties -- the underdog has to have a better public face. Others can, but they have determined that their validation techniques are good enough to be able to send out refurbished replacements without causing themselves a giant headache in further warranty claims, and being bigger means they have the marketing and exposure to not have to beg for customers. 

 

No, socialistic entitlement=the reason. 


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15 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

XFX also used to offer lifetime warranties -- the underdog has to have a better public face. Others can, but they have determined that their validation techniques are good enough to be able to send out refurbished replacements without causing themselves a giant headache in further warranty claims, and being bigger means they have the marketing and exposure to not have to beg for customers. 

 
 

XFX doesn't have to beg for customers due to their PSU quality.  Morality and not being cheap is part of why people trust XFX more.  Having higher sales doesn't mean you get to have fewer morals and get to be cheap.  And, now if they do it in this country they are breaking the law.


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As a manufacturer, why should I realease a good quality product, when I can focus on repairing my shit product on and on?


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3 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

An old device isn't inherently more likely to break, especially if they do a good job validating the hardware. Again, you're not turning in a new product so no, you're not entitled to a new product. 

 

Also there is no wait time in exchanging an iPhone. 

 

Besides, I didn't pay for ANY iPhone, I paid for MY iPhone. So if my iPhone breaks then a new replacement isn't satisfactory either, I should get my money back even if it's 11 months and 29 days post purchase. But of course, that's ridiculous. This entitlement nonsense needs to end.

Wear and tear is a thing and causes older devices to become more likely to fail. That's exactly why I had the experience I did and why the YLOD PS3 issue only started to become prominent years after the launch. It's the same with any electronic device and some more than others. Validating the hardware would make sense but at the end of the day it probably costs them more than the hardware is worth in the case of an Iphone which would make me inclined to believe that they just don't do it.

 

Just because there is no wait time in exchanging an iphone (not the case where I live) does not mean that it's fine for them to fail or that it's not an inconvenience to the user. The whole point of a warranty is to serve as a promise to the consumer that the hardware is guaranteed to work for said period of time, else it get's replaced with the same or better product or a full refund is offered. For a company as notorious for being unwilling to acknowledge widespread hardware issues as Apple is I would expect that most people demand a new product.


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Just now, Carclis said:

Wear and tear is a thing and causes older devices to become more likely to fail. That's exactly why I had the experience I did and why the YLOD PS3 issue only started to become prominent years after the launch. It's the same with any electronic device and some more than others.

 

Validating the hardware would make sense but at the end of the day it probably costs them more than the hardware is worth in the case of an Iphone which would make me inclined to believe that they just don't do it.

 

Just because there is no wait time in exchanging an iphone (not the case where I live) does not mean that it's fine for them to fail or that it's not an inconvenience to the user. The whole point of a warranty is to serve as a promise to the consumer that the hardware is guaranteed to work for said period of time, else it get's replaced with the same or better product or a full refund is offered. For a company as notorious for being unwilling to acknowledge widespread hardware issues as Apple is I would expect that most people demand a new product.

An older device has also been run through the paces -- early failures also account for a significant number of total failures. 

 

Their warranty agreement implies they ensure the quality of any refurbished components -- you can choose to believe that or not, but until proven otherwise, they validate the components/devices.

 

If you bothered to read the warranty agreement that you agree to when purchasing the product, you would see that they offer a new equivalent for any warranty claims. Nowhere do they promise a new device or a refund because, frankly, that's ridiculous -- you're not giving in a new product, so why should you be given a new product as a replacement. 


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Why should I as a costumer accept a replacement product of less value? How is that fair?


Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

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5 minutes ago, Tomsen said:

Why should I as a costumer accept a replacement product of less value? How is that fair?

Because it's what you agreed to when you purchased the product (and the device you're turning in is no longer new either).


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It is common practice for repair shops to use parts from broken tech they have laying around, but I do think that when you get a replacement unit that it should be brand new, both because that is what the consumer expects but also because you never know if a given part in a refurbished unit is worn down to the point just before it showing flaws. So I think this ruling is 100% fair

 

If they can't give a customer a new product or repair their product then they should get their money back no questions asked. That is my stance on this


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23 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Because it's what you agreed to when you purchased the product (and the device you're turning in is no longer new either).

Thats the commercial guarantee which you can invoke. It is the legal guarantee that is being invoked. So that agreement means nothing to our subject if I am reading this correctly.

 

Also, you not turning in a new device is not an argument at all. If Apple had done their job in the first place there would have been no reason to replace it. This is some very faulty logic to try to impose.


Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

"the last 20 percent – going from demo to production-worthy algorithm – is both hard and is time-consuming. The last 20 percent is what separates the men from the boys" - Mobileye CEO

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23 hours ago, Jahramika said:

So all the wacko left wingers are against recycling. Can not win in a messed up world.  

1) Nobody said anything about their political preferences. How would you know if they're right or left wing?

2) Keep politics out of this

3) Most people are fine with recycling and getting refurbished units as long as they're as good as new ones.


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