Dutch court rules that Apple cannot supply ‘refurbished or remanufactured’ iPads as warranty replacements

[CaptainGazzz]

6 minutes ago, Rune said:

I am on Apple's side here (ew). You are sending them a used product, you should get a working used product in return. If you are worried about getting a new product back, get the store replacement plan.

I don't think all used products are equal, the woman in question had a 4 month old product, she could have gotten a much older device.

[MorganO]

my thoughts on this are:

if the device that is being replaced in warranty, the same product is in production, the product should be replaced by a new device

if the device is no longer in production their should be another option, a new equivalent device ie, the next version up or a refurbished unit

[IronSoldier]

I had this with my Nexus 5 from google. The signal kept dropping out even when I knew I should have full 4g coverage. Ended up getting a refurb as replacement. Obviously had been used for a long time as the battery lasted about an hour less compared to my previous 2 nexus 5s- gave up with it after a couple of weeks due to poor battery life. First time I got my nexus 5 replaced I was given a brand new device. It was a shame and in future I shall insist that my device (pixel XL) is replaced with a new one due to past failings, 

[JoostinOnline]

I think refurbished is fine. If your product didn't break, you'd still own a used one. 

 

I'm not talking about the 30 day replacements that usually go along with purchases of course, those should be new. 

[Doobeedoo]

Haha they really want to get away with it even oh wow, want to avoid just simply giving a new device to someone who still haves warranty.

[Doramius]

32 minutes ago, CaptainGazzz said:

A refurbished or remanufactured product isn't new, it could contain parts that are very worn-out. If a manufacturer can't repair your product, you should always get a brand new one, otherwise you could get a worse product.

Careful how you phrase this, because it's not entirely true.  Different industries have different standards and definitions for this.  Non-certified, third party, aftermarket repair shops have tarnished the meaning in IT manufacturing.  True ISO standard items include a standard warranty from time of receipt of refurbished/remanufactured item (not time of original purchase of defective item).  They are inspected and certified as if brand new to the standards and specifications of a new manufactured item.  Visually worn and used parts must be replaced.  If any seal has been breached to replace another part, those seals must be replaced with factory replacement seals.  Chassis damage is not necessarily considered as part of the inspection and certification process, unless it interferes with or compromises the function and use of the unit and/or the seals.  "Used" identifies that the unit is post original manufacturing and has not been certified by the original manufacturer to function 'like new'.  "Certified Used" means that an item has been inspected by a 3rd party to the standards of a manufacturer that it functions as intended, but not necessarily operates or functions as if it were new (very common with motor vehicles).

 

Refurbished units could be items manufactured in the factory and sent out to a customer, but the unit is returned unopened; Trial use devices from a focus group center;  Leased units that were returned at close of contractual term; etc.  Companies often offer a "similar or better" device as some repairs might not be easily obvious as to what problem a specific devices has, or the repair is extensive enough to where a replacement unit is more cost effective.  If the manufacturers did not do this type of practices it would be both ecologically and economically damaging and expensive.

I do agree, that since the unit was 4 months old, and that stores would most likely have new ones on their shelves, that they should have replaced the iPad with a new one.  However,  if the unit is outside of a standard warranty period and if someone purchased the extended warranty, then they are subject to a refurbished or remanufactured item.  Most companies actually disclose this in their warranty clauses.  The difference in this instance is that the Dutch court agreed that since there are new on the shelf units available that are the exact same as the unit that the customer had purchased, they should be giving the customer a brand new unit.  

[MoonSpot]

45 minutes ago, TorqueS said:

Store replacement plan? How does that work, I never came across it?

It doesn't work for the consumer, for the store conning you it works flipping great.  They're just a money grab plans.

 

53 minutes ago, TorqueS said:

To think this is even debatable...jeez how far have we come?

It is jaw-dropping and hurt my head when I read those comments.  It's the sort of crap only a dyed in the wool bend-you-over salesmen would think is on the level.

[TorqueS]

41 minutes ago, MoonSpot said:

It doesn't work for the consumer, for the store conning you it works flipping great.  They're just a money grab plans.

 

It is jaw-dropping and hurt my head when I read those comments.  It's the sort of crap only a dyed in the wool bend-you-over salesmen would think is on the level.

I don't really understand where you're going with this...

[SansVarnic]

Option 4; should give customer the option of a new or refurbished product unless a certain time has passed like a year or so then a refurbished one would be the only choice.

[EunSoo]

For extended warranty on my Nexus 6p, Google did the exact same thing. They gave me a refurbished one which had a defective vibration thingy. So its not just Apple doing this. Honestly, I don't mind it but I can see why some people would

[Zodiark1593]

2 hours ago, SCGazelle said:

For extended warranty on my Nexus 6p, Google did the exact same thing. They gave me a refurbished one which had a defective vibration thingy. So its not just Apple doing this. Honestly, I don't mind it but I can see why some people would

I wouldn't mind refurbished units myself if A) it is functioning as intended, B) all consumables inside are replaced, namely the battery, and C) the product is covered under warranty. 

[AnonymousGuy]

I don't really care if a replacement is recertified remanufactured whatever the fuck as long as it behaves *exactly* like a brand new device.  My beef is the fact that I've gotten a shitload of "recertified" hard drives that die fucking immediately.

[shermantanker]

Don't they normal give out new devices? I had an expanding battery in my 6, and they gave me a new one. I even asked the guy if it was a referb.

[Guest]

I think they should give you a new device if it is a repair under warranty. This is because you paid for a new device and it obviously didn't work as advertised, so you should get a new device! If you cracked the screen or dropped it in water however, is a different story.

[Doramius]

On 4/28/2017 at 11:41 AM, AnonymousGuy said:

I don't really care if a replacement is recertified remanufactured whatever the fuck as long as it behaves *exactly* like a brand new device.  My beef is the fact that I've gotten a shitload of "recertified" hard drives that die fucking immediately.

Recertified is totally different from Refurbished or Remanufactured.  Recertified is the same thing as calling something "Certified Used".  It is NOT new.  They may change the outer chassis and clean it up, but the internal works are the same as it came off the factory line, that have a number of work hours from use.  What they are recertifying is that the device is within specific tolerances to continue to work.  It's like a car dealership buying a used car back, replacing the trim, seat covers, and carpets; give the car a wash and some touchup paint; run the engine and critical components through a series of stress tests; and then selling it as "recertified".  It CANNOT be considered refurbished or remanufactured.  

 

However, getting any sort of replacement device that does not perform the same or better than the previous device, it replaced.....is company fraud.  It falls very closely under bait & switch.

[Andreas Lilja]

Meh, once had two refurbished iPods.

 

Couldn't tell the difference from new.

[Jahramika]

So all the wacko left wingers are against recycling. Can not win in a messed up world.  

[Ryujin2003]

On 04/26/2017 at 3:39 PM, CaptainGazzz said:

According to an article on Tweakers, Apple tried to prevent the judge from giving a verdict by arguing that the woman in question was already offered everything that she demanded by Apple, but the objection was rejected by the judge. This verdict could be used for other lawsuits or even a class action lawsuit.

 

I believe Apple should have provided the woman with a brand new product or a repair. A refurbished or remanufactured product isn't new, it could contain parts that are very worn-out. If a manufacturer can't repair your product, you should always get a brand new one, otherwise you could get a worse product.

 

What do you think?

 

Source

Replace with same or "like" model if model was discontinued. And "like" is NOT a downgrade item...

[Ryujin2003]

On 04/28/2017 at 1:50 PM, Abyss Gaming said:

I think they should give you a new device if it is a repair under warranty. This is because you paid for a new device and it obviously didn't work as advertised, so you should get a new device! If you cracked the screen or dropped it in water however, is a different story.

The issue I see with non new devices is that it severely reduces consumer confidence in the product. You don't want that

[Sniperfox47]

Of course we should give out brand new devices! Why bother reusing or recycling these expensive and dangerous materials. Just throw them in an f-ing landfill! /s

 

I don't understand why people get so upset by this. It's not exactly a secret that Apple re-uses chips and boards as much as feasible. That's why trade in and recycling programs exist. They're not the only ones either. Most computer manufacturers have a certain % of recycled components in brand new laptops off the shelf.

 

I see a lot of people complaining about duty cycle on the components and that they could have been running 24/7... You do realize microchips don't usually work like that right? Most of the chips they're using are rated for waaaaaaaaay longer lives than the device itself. Why? Because most of the long term issues are either hardware bugs, issues with wear in the connection interface, or issues with wear on NAND chips, which are very rarely reused anyways.

 

tl;dr: Most brand new apple devices off the shelf are already using some recycled components. Most PCs you buy are using some recycled components. That's not a bad thing.

[Belgarathian]

We must be green! 

 

We must recycle! 

 

We must re-use! 

 

How DARE you give me re-manufactured products as a warranty replacment for my used iPad!

[Sakkura]

On 26/4/2017 at 10:00 PM, Fooshi said:

Good. Let's hope they follow suit in other countries as well. A refurb is not up to standard with a new product, spot free or not.

Late reply, just wanted to mention there's already been a case like this in Denmark, with exactly the same outcome.

 

 

[Sakkura]

5 hours ago, Jahramika said:

So all the wacko left wingers are against recycling. Can not win in a messed up world.  

 

5 hours ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Of course we should give out brand new devices! Why bother reusing or recycling these expensive and dangerous materials. Just throw them in an f-ing landfill! /s

 

I don't understand why people get so upset by this. It's not exactly a secret that Apple re-uses chips and boards as much as feasible. That's why trade in and recycling programs exist. They're not the only ones either. Most computer manufacturers have a certain % of recycled components in brand new laptops off the shelf.

 

I see a lot of people complaining about duty cycle on the components and that they could have been running 24/7... You do realize microchips don't usually work like that right? Most of the chips they're using are rated for waaaaaaaaay longer lives than the device itself. Why? Because most of the long term issues are either hardware bugs, issues with wear in the connection interface, or issues with wear on NAND chips, which are very rarely reused anyways.

 

tl;dr: Most brand new apple devices off the shelf are already using some recycled components. Most PCs you buy are using some recycled components. That's not a bad thing.

 

2 hours ago, Belgarathian said:

We must be green! 

 

We must recycle! 

 

We must re-use! 

 

How DARE you give me re-manufactured products as a warranty replacment for my used iPad!

What you guys fail to understand is that Apple has every right to sell refurbished products, or to ask people if they will voluntarily accept a refurbished replacement of a broken product that was bought new (if necessary, along with some other incentive like eg. $50 store credit or some free accessory).

 

What they cannot do is secretly give people an inferior replacement in situations where they are mandated by law to give a new product. As for new devices having recycled components, that's not true. Evidence was presented in the earlier Danish case that such devices are sold in other countries for roughly 15% less than new devices (which is entirely fair, and there would be no obstacle for Apple doing that in countries like Denmark and the Netherlands - except they're too greedy to take that 15% loss).

[KE2012]

I border on the side of new devices. I got a refurbished GPU back not so long ago that kicked the bucket almost immediately, and then it's replacement was brand new, and is still trooping along today. I would feel 'safer' from this type of thing happening again with a new device. 

 

Also a new product imo is a way for the company to apologise for their hardware failing you after giving them your hard earned money. 

[Energycore]

I'm all for refurbs provided they guarantee them just as well. Throwing away every refurb device would be a massive waste (not that Apple is a very waste-friendly company).