Linux + Windows, KVM(?)

[leletec]

Hi guys,

I will finish school in like a month and I am planning on building a new computer afterwards, based on a Ryzen 7 1700X.
Currently I am using Windows 10 as my OS but I am not really liking it, so my plan is to switch to a Linux distibution such as Linux Mint.
The only problem with that are the games (and some other programs).

Maybe you watched the WAN-Show where Luke said the he was planning to build a machine to run Linux and Windows and kinda stream the game running on Windows to the other platform. (I hope you understand me.)

That's also what I roughly had in mind: My idea was using KVM (Kernel-based Virtual Machine) to run Windows, because I don't know if running it on a usual VM would bottleneck it.

So I wanted to ask you guys if you have any experience with that or some other ideas.

[SCHISCHKA]

you need VGA passthrough to play a game properly. On AMD this requires IOMMU which is not working for VGA passthrough ATM. You also have to do research if your motherboard works.

 

linux has a steam client and native games. You can see if a game is availble on linux from steam under the system requirements.

 

If you need to run windows then just run windows in dual boot.

[leletec]

34 minutes ago, SCHISCHKA said:

you need VGA passthrough to play a game properly. On AMD this requires IOMMU which is not working for VGA passthrough ATM. You also have to do research if your motherboard works.

Well that doesn't sound to good... Could you do it with unRAID? I would be willing to use two graphic cards and RAID1 for unRAID but I really want to use a ryzen cpu for those extra cores. (Like in the "2 gamers 1 CPU" or the "NAS + gaming machine" videos)

 

34 minutes ago, SCHISCHKA said:

linux has a steam client and native games. You can see if a game is availble on linux from steam under the system requirements.

 

If you need to run windows then just run windows in dual boot.

Yeah I know, but you can't run all the games on linux.
And I don't want to do dual boot, because just seems to be to uncomfortable.

Edited April 21, 2017 by leletec

[SCHISCHKA]

5 minutes ago, leletec said:

Could you do it with unRAID

no

[slicknux]

You have the right idea to start with but it's just the beginning, there will be many obstacles to overcome. With trial and error you will figure it out. So yeah, let Linux use some onboard graphics card and leave the dedicated video card unused so that KVM can use it. But for gaming, I would forget the number of cores and focus on single core performance. With games in mind, Intel and NVIDIA perform better on Linux (with proprietary drivers) and you won't even need to virtualize Windows. For those that fail (and there really aren't many today if you know what you're doing) forbid that Linux touches the dedicated card, meaning avoid to load drivers. This can be done with some easy blacklisting in the Grub boot entries. And finally, after configuring passthrough and all that jazz, let the Windows drivers take hold of that video card. If the host claims it, then the KVM guest won't be able to access it directly.

 

And I understand why you would want to avoid dual-boot. It's just much more comfortable to double click on your desktop and launch Windows as a slave, like it's supposed to be  play, then close it, while the Linux God watches over everything. Not to mention whatever you have open in the background will still be there and you can continue where you left off.

 

There were some interesting and in-depth experiments on reddit. Look for KVM and passthrough stuff around there.

 

And since you didn't buy anything yet, and want to run Linux don't just be set on some hardware and then figure out how to make it work. You have the chance to inform yourself better and choose hardware that gets along well with your new OS. Don't miss that chance, you'll be sorry later. Get your eyes on every benchmark you can find (of course, done on the Linux platform).

 

Edit: I have added some info in the beginning of this post

[leletec]

Thanks a lot for this answer @slicknux
You exactly understood what my mindset is

 

The reason I thought going with AMD for the CPU would be a good idea were the more cores you get, while not paying ridiculous amounts of money. And the 1700X apparently doesn't perform to bad in games. For the GPU I planned on using a NVIDIA card anyways.

 

I am also looking for some reports about virtualization on Ryzen right now, reading about people that managed to do it with HyperX for example: https://community.amd.com/thread/213517

Didn't find anything about UnRAID yet.

 

Also I will definetly keep informing myself and post my results.

[slicknux]

Something to make your brain spin and maybe get inspiration from: 

 

[fragment137]

This topic is always interesting to me. Currently I dual boot windows/Ubuntu 16.04 at home and I like to live in Linux for the most part, but I find myself switching to Windows to play certain games. The idea of a Passthrough is pretty darn close to what I'd be looking for but still doesn't completely scratch the Linux Gaming itch.

 

What i'd REALLY like is for Vulkan (or OpenGL) to really take off and start to make gaming on Linux a true competitor. Windows cornering the market with DirectX is just depressing. If I didn't game on my PC I wouldn't be running Windows at all anymore.

 

Good luck with this KVM project. I'm really interested to see how it turns out!

[Mooshe]

1 hour ago, fragment137 said:

This topic is always interesting to me. Currently I dual boot windows/Ubuntu 16.04 at home and I like to live in Linux for the most part, but I find myself switching to Windows to play certain games. The idea of a Passthrough is pretty darn close to what I'd be looking for but still doesn't completely scratch the Linux Gaming itch.

 

What i'd REALLY like is for Vulkan (or OpenGL) to really take off and start to make gaming on Linux a true competitor. Windows cornering the market with DirectX is just depressing. If I didn't game on my PC I wouldn't be running Windows at all anymore.

 

Good luck with this KVM project. I'm really interested to see how it turns out!

OpenGL has really progressed over the past few years, especially with SteamOS and Valve streamlining it. We've been seeing more and more games come compatible on Linux, albeit some ports don't utilize OpenGL well.

 

I personally do not run Windows at all. I abandoned ship after Windows 8.1 crapped out on me 2 years ago, and have been running Ubuntu ever since, and I've gotta say, I'm glad I made the switch. The only downside is that about 30% of my steam library is unavailable, but most of these games are really old and outdated. The new(-ish) games such as Saints Row and CS:GO run pretty well.

 

I am really impressed with Valve, and how optimized their games are on Linux. I see no difference between CS:GO operating on Windows and it operating on Linux on the same settings.

 

13 hours ago, leletec said:

Hi guys,

I will finish school in like a month and I am planning on building a new computer afterwards, based on a Ryzen 7 1700X.
Currently I am using Windows 10 as my OS but I am not really liking it, so my plan is to switch to a Linux distibution such as Linux Mint.
The only problem with that are the games (and some other programs).

Maybe you watched the WAN-Show where Luke said the he was planning to build a machine to run Linux and Windows and kinda stream the game running on Windows to the other platform. (I hope you understand me.)

That's also what I roughly had in mind: My idea was using KVM (Kernel-based Virtual Machine) to run Windows, because I don't know if running it on a usual VM would bottleneck it.

So I wanted to ask you guys if you have any experience with that or some other ideas.

 

I'm unaware of how well Ryzen handles passthrough, but this blog post explains the basics of setting up GPU passthrough for gaming.

 

[leletec]

9 hours ago, Mooshe said:

I'm unaware of how well Ryzen handles passthrough, but this blog post explains the basics of setting up GPU passthrough for gaming.

Thanks for the link. Quite interesting, especially:

Quote

WARNING: GPU passthrough and VAC: Competitive gamers playing on servers protected by Valve Anti-Cheat may want to think twice before setting something like this up as their primary gaming machine, as VAC will refuse to run if it detects it’s in a VM (much like some malware).

 

However most of the VAC games should run on Linux.

 

I thought about GPU passthrough again that night and I figured, that with UnRAID, I would need 3 discrete GPUs, since Ryzen doesn't have a IGPU?
Anyways, the approach of using something like VmWare + passthrough seems to be the better way to go.

 

I will now look up, which of my programs are incomatible with Linux and shre the information in a future post.

 

11 hours ago, fragment137 said:

What i'd REALLY like is for Vulkan (or OpenGL) to really take off and start to make gaming on Linux a true competitor. Windows cornering the market with DirectX is just depressing. If I didn't game on my PC I wouldn't be running Windows at all anymore.

I heard, that you could sometimes (?) run DX-games with Wine.

[Night_]

31 minutes ago, leletec said:

I thought about GPU passthrough again that night and I figured, that with UnRAID, I would need 3 discrete GPUs, since Ryzen doesn't have a IGPU?

Anyways, the approach of using something like VmWare + passthrough seems to be the better way to go.

 

You don't really need UnRAID or VWare for that. As long as your motherboard has Intel VT-d/AMD-Vi capability, you can do PCI passthrough using KVM on most Linux distro as long as you have at least two video interfaces.

[leletec]

59 minutes ago, Night_ said:

You don't really need UnRAID or VWare for that. As long as your motherboard has Intel VT-d/AMD-Vi capability, you can do PCI passthrough using KVM on most Linux distro as long as you have at least two video interfaces.

Okay thank you. I just don't really have experience with KVM.

[leletec]

Okay, so those are the games (and the software), that are not officially supported to run on Linux. That does not mean, that you can't run them with WineHQ though. Right now, however, I don't really have the time to try it, will do it in the future.

Spoiler

Software I own
ImgBurn
Magix Video deluxe 2016 Premium
MSI Afterburner
Samsung Magician

 

Games I own
Overwatch

Assassins's Creed 2 (DX 9.0)
BioShock (DX 9.0c)
BioShock 2 (DX 9.0c)
Call of Juarez Gunslinger (DX 9.0c/10)
Dishonored (DX 9)
The Evil Within (DX 11)
Hitman: Absolution (DX 10/11)
Sniper Elite 3 (DX 10)
Sniper: Ghost Warrior (DX 9.0c)
Styx: Master of Shadows (DX 9)
Portal (DX 8.1/9)
Alan Wake (DX 9.0c/10)
Antichamber (DX 9.0c)
Injustice: Gods Among Us (DX 10/11)
Mount & Blade: With Fire & Sword (DX 9.0c)
Ori and the Blind Forest: Definitive Edition (DX 9.0c/11)
Sleeping Dogs (DX 10/11)
Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed (DX 9.0c)
Worms Revolution

 

Games I'd like to own in the future

Rise of the Tom Raider (DX 11)
DmC: Devil May Cry (DX 9.0c)
Doom (Vulkan)
Machinarium
Kholat (DX 10)
Zero Escape: Zero Time Dilemma (DX 11)
Age of Mythology: Extendet Edition (DC 10/11+)
Dishonored 2
The Bunker (DX 11)
Inside (DX 9.0/11)
Thumper (DX 9.0c/11)
Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition (DX 10)
Superhot
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
Valiant Hearts: The Great War (DX 9)

 

[leletec]

12 hours ago, Mooshe said:

I personally do not run Windows at all. I abandoned ship after Windows 8.1 crapped out on me 2 years ago, and have been running Ubuntu ever since, and I've gotta say, I'm glad I made the switch. The only downside is that about 30% of my steam library is unavailable, but most of these games are really old and outdated. The new(-ish) games such as Saints Row and CS:GO run pretty well.

Right now I am not sure if I want to try gaming on Linux or if I want all my games on WIndows.

The problem is, if I plan on gaming on Linux, it gets the better GPU (I can't afford 2 top-of-the-lines) so if a new game comes out that doesn't run on Linux, I can't play it with the worse GPU.

[Night_]

1 hour ago, leletec said:

Okay thank you. I just don't really have experience with KVM.

There's a unified library on Linux called "libvirt" that simplefies many things when it comes to virtualization or emulation using KVM/QEMU. If you use a simple GUI frontend like "virt-manager" or "Gnome Boxes" and can get the basic jist behind the entire concept, i think it could make things a lot more simple for beginners.

 

1 hour ago, leletec said:

Right now I am not sure if I want to try gaming on Linux or if I want all my games on WIndows.

The problem is, if I plan on gaming on Linux, it gets the better GPU (I can't afford 2 top-of-the-lines) so if a new game comes out that doesn't run on Linux, I can't play it with the worse GPU.

Using the better GPU in a virtual machine via passthrough doesn't make it permantanly attached to it, so if it comes to that you could still switch it back and forth.

But to be frank it's probably a better idea to just try and see if what you're looking for works well or has a decent alternative under Linux. Nowdays many games on Steam have Linux ports or can just run well via Wine.

[leletec]

By the way, you can use Synergy with that, right?

[Night_]

@leletec

As in using the same keyboard and mouse from host to guest? Yes of course.

[leletec]

Just now, Night_ said:

@leletec

As in using the same keyboard and mouse from host to guest? Yes of course,

Okay good.

[leletec]

Those are the parts I am planning to use right now (may change due to research etc):
https://pcpartpicker.com/user/leletec/saved/kgR999
 

CPU: AMD RYZEN 7 1700X 3.4GHz 8-Core Processor

CPU Cooler: Corsair H110i 113.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-AX370-GAMING 5 ATX AM4 Motherboard

Memory: G.Skill Trident Z RGB 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-3000 Memory

(not sure about that one, may change; also I want that much memory for emulating Android devices and such)

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive (for Linux)

Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" Solid State Drive (for Windows, already own that one)

Video Card: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB AORUS Video Card

GIGABYTE R9 280X 3072MB GDDR5 OC PCI-E 3.0 384bit (already own that one)

Case: Corsair Carbide Clear 600C ATX Full Tower Case

(may change, just like it because it's something special)

Power Supply: be quiet! DARK POWER PRO 11 750W 80+ Platinum Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply

 

note: Pricing in Germany (/europe) is ridiculous: In the USA you can get those parts for about 2200$, in Germany you have to pay 2400€ (which would be around 2575 USD)...

[leletec]

After thinking about CPU options, I still want to stick with the Ryzen 7 1700X. The reasons for that are:

• I prefer the additional cores of the Ryzen 7 lineup over the i7-7700K, because I plan to run multiple VMs without one of them suffering from to little CPU time.
• I don't mind the little fps decrease with Ryzen due to its lower clock speed (regularly up to about 4.1 GHz) compared to the i7-7700K (regularly up to 4.5 GHz), since it does not to be to bad.
• Speding 80$ extra for the 1800X over the 1700X seems not worth to me, because you can manually overclock the 1700X to about the same speed. Sure, you will lose AMDs Precision Boost abilities but whatever, my cooling should be good enough.

[leletec]

Apparently Gigabyte does not support Linux with its boards..which really is a shame, because the double ethernet would have been great.

[leletec]

Finally back with another post!
I pretty much finished with my school and with my thoughts about my new pc.

This is my updated partslist:

Spoiler

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 7 1700X 3.4GHz 8-Core Processor  (€355.81 @ Amazon Deutschland)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! - Silent Loop 280 94.2 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  (€142.59 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Thermal Compound: Arctic Silver - 5 High-Density Polysynthetic Silver 3.5g Thermal Paste  (€13.84 @ Mindfactory)
Motherboard: Asus - CROSSHAIR VI HERO ATX AM4 Motherboard  (€243.99 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: G.Skill - Trident Z 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 Memory  (€193.02 @ Mindfactory)
Storage: Samsung - 960 EVO 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  (€237.84 @ Mindfactory)
Storage: Samsung - 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" Solid State Drive  (Purchased For €0.00)
Video Card: Asus - GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB STRIX GAMING Video Card  (€869.00)
Case: be quiet! - Dark Base Pro 900 (Black/Orange) ATX Full Tower Case  (€214.90 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Power Supply: be quiet! - DARK POWER PRO 11 1200W 80+ Platinum Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply  (€264.89 @ Mindfactory)
Other: GIGABYTE R9 280X 3072MB GDDR5 OC PCI-E 3.0 384bit  (Purchased For €0.00)
Total: €2535.88
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-06-05 17:53 CEST+0200

 

 

I chose "only" 16 GB of RAM, because the 32 GB sets on the QVL where not on sale yet. Aditionally that should be enough for now and because I only use two slots with that set I can still upgrade in the future.

 

Luckily, virtualization on Ryzen should be getting easier, especially with this board.

 

What I am kinda concerned about is the powersupply and the reviews on it claiming that it exploded on some people. On the other hand there are also bad reviews for the mobo but I think those were caused by user error. Also the Dark Power Pro 11 got pretty good reviews from professionals.

 

Any thoughts about the partslist or something else? @paddy-stone

[paddy-stone]

Just had a quick look, and at first glance all I can see is the PSU is waay overkill, just changed that to an 850W tier 1 PSU https://de.pcpartpicker.com/list/92vFnn

 

Will have another look and see if I think anything could be better, but for the most part looks OK. But if you're goign to overclock anyway, just get the 1700, not the 1700x as there's no point, save yourself the $20 or whatever for something else.

[leletec]

29 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

Just had a quick look, and at first glance all I can see is the PSU is waay overkill, just changed that to an 850W tier 1 PSU https://de.pcpartpicker.com/list/92vFnn

 

Will have another look and see if I think anything could be better, but for the most part looks OK. But if you're goign to overclock anyway, just get the 1700, not the 1700x as there's no point, save yourself the $20 or whatever for something else.

I thought the same about the PSU, but somehow a calculater got me to that high wattage. I guess it calculated the overclock wrong.

 

Can you really overclock a 1700 to the same clock as the 1700X?
I thought it would be limited due to a lower TDP.

[leletec]

OuterVision PSU Calculator part list

Motherboard: Desktop
CPU: 1 x Ryzen 7 1700X
CPU Speed: 4100MHz
CPU Vcore: 1.35V
CPU Utilization: 90%
Memory: 2 x 8GB DDR4 Module
Video Card Set 1: 1 x NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti
Core Clock: 1999MHz
Overvoltage: 20%
Memory Clock: 1502MHz
Video Card set 2: 1 x AMD Radeon R9 280X
Core Clock: 1009MHz
Memory Clock: 1500MHz
Storage: 1 x M.2 SSD
Storage: 1 x SSD
Other Device: 1 x Fan Controller Device
Other Device: 2 x LED strip light - 15 LEDs (12"/30cm)
Keyboard: 1 x Gaming Keyboard
Mouse: 1 x Gaming Mouse
Fan: 5 x 140mm
Computer Utilization: 8 hours per day
Gaming/Video Editing/3D Rendering Time: No Gaming / 3D Apps

Load Wattage: 1030W
Recommended Wattage: 1080W
Amperage: +3.3V: 13.4A, +5V: 9.9A, +12V: 82.1A
Recommended UPS Rating: 2000VA
Generated by OuterVision PSU Calculator 2017-06-05 03:34:45

 

So that site would suggest a 1200W PSU like the EVGA SuperNOVA 1200W P2 80 PLUS. @paddy-stone