Future of the Windows Mobile Platform

[Nowak]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I think they are trying things.

 

But will they sink, or will they soar?

[GoodBytes]

20 minutes ago, Daring said:

But will they sink, or will they soar?

On paper, they will soar.. but Microsoft has an excellent history of executing things well.

[SansVarnic]

On 4/24/2017 at 6:59 PM, Daring said:

Are you expecting an answer beyond "It's better"? Because they don't seem to be willing to explain how it's better, considering all this:

 

WP users just state that it's "better", but never explain how it's better. Probably because Microsoft said so, therefore it's true.

 

tbh this editorial by michael fisher is still very relevant to this day.

It is better, it has been explained by me and others, apparently reading and understanding don't always go hand in hand. I make the case pretty clear in my comments.

 

[Nowak]

6 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

It is better, it has been explained by me and others, apparently reading and understanding don't always go hand in hand. I make the case pretty clear in my comments.

But is it "better" because Microsoft said so? Because if there's any one thing I learned from having owned a 2-in-1 device, there's gonna be compromises, and it's never all sugar and rainbows, everything is perfect.

[SansVarnic]

3 minutes ago, Daring said:

But is it "better" because Microsoft said so? Because if there's any one thing I learned from having owned a 2-in-1 device, there's gonna be compromises, and it's never all sugar and rainbows, everything is perfect.

Nope its better imo based on my experiences with it and other platforms, now admittedly I have not experienced DeX yet but I hope to at some point.

Experiences do tend to vary of course from brand to brand but I don't do the whole 2in1 device thing and imo the design of this device is superior to other 2in1 or 3in1 devices. I also base my choice of better on others that have given me their input from their experiences using my devices. 

 

I have converted my wife and my parents (my parents are difficult) to Windows phones because they have found them to be easier to use than either Android and iPhone based off letting them use my phone for an hour.

 

Nothing is perfect and I can certainly make some major complaints about all the platforms including the Windows Mobile platform like the one that it taking to long to mature but I am patient and I see the potential and worth behind the platform. But that is me and this fits my needs and likes.

[Nowak]

1 minute ago, SansVarnic said:

I have converted my wife and my parents (my parents are difficult) to Windows phones because they have found them to be easier to use than either Android and iPhone based off letting them use my phone for an hour.

My mom admitted my old Windows phones were easy to use, but she preferred iOS and so she stuck to it.

 

Now I use Android. Does it have its issues? Yes, but using a mobile OS that doesn't feel like an afterthought is nice. I'm the only one in my family who doesn't use iOS. Windows Phone has its place, but that niche seems to be shrinking by the year.

[GoodBytes]

52 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

I really hope you’re being sarcastic. Need I mention the Palm Desktop? Windows CE? Zune? MSN Watch? Hell, the obvious: Windows Phones?

 

You guise keep reiterating that “it’s not about the Surface Phone, it’s about the Windows Mobile platform”, and we acknowledge that. But still, most of us listening are like…

 

Microsoft’s track record is especially relevant here. It’s anything but riddled with success like you seem to believe (unless of course, that was sarcasm). We’re skeptical not because we don’t understand what the topic is about; we simply don’t believe this is going to go anywhere. Past history is evidence to support that.

Yes, my post was extremely sarcastic. How many products Microsoft releases where if you experience them you have this... feeling of such massive potential, you can feel the passion from the devs behind, but ruined or limited due to poor managerial decisions one after another. Some example:

• Zune. Ignoring the slowness to market, the device was a solid, and was impressive device. But.. some idiot manager decided that Poop Brown is a wonderful color to have the device in, which made this running joke, despite its removal and other, more sensible colors replace it. Oh and sold in the US only. On select stores, of course. Limited quantity.... not even paying for store shelf space in those stores, ensuring the device is always in display with an empty battery, so people can't check it out, covered in dust, with the light burned on top, in a corner of the store that one goes with the other crap MP3 devices that no one buys. Oh! And be SURE to have 0 advertisement. VERY Important... the product is Microsoft little secret.. Shhhhhhhhh.... It took the Zune HD to change the image of the MP3 player, because the device was drastically different, featuring crazy tech at the time, and a crazy sleek, futurist, industrial design, where its visual impact made the device get free publicity from the media. But.. waaaaaaaaaayyyy to late. And how about apps/games? Oh that idea got axed. Despite the iPhone and iPod Touch showed to be a success and device seller feature. You get what came with the device and that is all. Putting that nice Tegra chip to waste.
   
• Courier. A tablet/book that brought StarTrek tech, something thaught to be impossible to market...  yea, the company saw 0 value in it, and got canceled. About a year later, the iPad is a massive hit
   
• Windows Phone. Again, 0 advertisement... poor managerial decision. Company treating it as if smartphone is nothing more than a fad. So many stories I read how the Windows phone team were blocked to do anything, lacking funds, and working with other teams, forcing them to re-invent the wheel on many things, wasting time. I won't be surprised if this is still happening today.
   
• Kin... yea do you remember that garbage... do I need to say anything more in a world of smartphones.... Oh it had its own OS... 'cause Windows Phone 7 apparently doesn't exists, despite running an Nvidia Tegra ARM based CPU... a chip that not only the company has worked on before, but is ARM based.. like the OS for phones that Windows Phone 7 was designed to run on.
   
• Microsoft Band. Low cost, powerful hardware, including high precision sensors that would be instant sale to any athlete device. Did you know that Microsoft made a smartwatch? Most people don't know.. again 0 advertisement, and only sold on select stores and in select regions. 0 OS integration beside Windows Phone.
   
• Game for Windows Live. A great idea on paper. Sadly, the execution was extremely poor, like if it was intern project without senior dev and software architecture supervising, guiding, and mentoring. Lack of resources, basically got canned soon after its release to actually fix anything, with a game store (yea, it had one) with prices that many times where more expensive than retail outlet.. forget Steam... we are not there yet.
   
• Windows 10 free upgrade promotion... how can you make people angry from a free promotion. Was it so hard to make TV ads like Windows 7 ads, showing off cool features of Windows 10, and going something like "Click the flag next to the time, to get it for free until July!" at the end that hard? I guess that involves this thing called "advertisement", so force upgrade... Lets destroy the company image further, and the OS image, making possibly the OS a flop.
   
• Windows 8. Yea it had ads... ads that said NOTHING about Windows 8. Proving 0 reason for customers to upgrade. With a few tweaks, Windows 8 OS could have been great. Especially highlighted by looking at Windows 10. Many features that people enjoy in Windows 10, were in Windows 8.

I can go on...

 

[SansVarnic]

51 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

I really hope you’re being sarcastic. Need I mention the Palm Desktop? Windows CE? Zune? MSN Watch? Hell, the obvious: Windows Phones?

 

You guise keep reiterating that “it’s not about the Surface Phone, it’s about the Windows Mobile platform”, and we acknowledge that. But still, most of us listening are like…

 

Microsoft’s track record is especially relevant here. It’s anything but riddled with success like you seem to believe (unless of course, that was sarcasm). We’re skeptical not because we don’t understand what the topic is about; we simply don’t believe this is going to go anywhere. Past history is evidence to support that.

I think one thing that people are not acknowledging is that Steve Ballmer crapped on Windows Phone and though Nadella refocused everything on cloud and is being very cryptic about the platform is because it is on the back burner until they are ready to focus on it again when they are ready. 

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Yes, my post was extremely sarcastic. How many products Microsoft releases where if you experience them you have this... feeling of such massive potential, you can feel the passion from the devs behind, but ruined or limited due to poor managerial decisions one after another. Some example:

• Zune.<snip>.
• Courier. <snip>
• Windows Phone. <snip>
• Kin... <snip>
• Microsoft Band. <snip>
• Game for Windows Live. <snip>
• Windows 10 free upgrade promotion... 
• Windows 8. Yea it had ads... ads that said NOTHING about Windows 8. Proving 0 reason for customers to upgrade.

I can go on...

 

Yup I agree, this is why I am a mediocre fanboy... MS has so many good ideas but sinks their own ship in the process of delivery. 

 

[Nowak]

12 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

I think one thing that people are not acknowledging is that Steve Ballmer crapped on Windows Phone and though Nadella refocused everything on cloud and is being very cryptic about the platform is because it is on the back burner until they are ready to focus on it again when they are ready. 

Under Ballmer, Windows Phone reached 5% market share. Under Nadella, Windows Phone sank to 0.38%, and it's only gonna go lower than that.

 

Meanwhile, Microsoft seems more than willing to promote and help out their competitors at Google and Apple over their own phones. Good luck finding a Windows Phone and not an Android phone at Chinese Microsoft stores, or any Microsoft store this year.

[SansVarnic]

2 minutes ago, Daring said:

Under Ballmer, Windows Phone reached 5% market share. Under Nadella, Windows Phone sank to 0.38%, and it's only gonna go lower than that.

 

Meanwhile, Microsoft seems more than willing to promote and help out their competitors at Google and Apple over their own phones. Good luck finding a Windows Phone and not an Android phone at Chinese Microsoft stores, or any Microsoft store this year.

OK and what is your point. You keep spouting numbers of this vs this but I said Nadella has refocused away from mobile so obviously the numbers will fall, Microsoft does not advertise Windows Phones most people dont even know the phones are still around because of this. Duh factor.

Make a better case.

[GoodBytes]

11 minutes ago, Daring said:

Meanwhile, Microsoft seems more than willing to promote and help out their competitors at Google and Apple over their own phones. Good luck finding a Windows Phone and not an Android phone at Chinese Microsoft stores, or any Microsoft store this year.

Actually, that is a smart move. Microsoft is trying to build an ecosystem. Imagine one with your Android phone and Windows 10. OneDrive, Office, Groove Music, sync notification, SMS/MMS under Windows 10, Cortana (which means Bing). It can help detach users from Google to Microsoft, and in the case ChromeOS grows, it adds this other barrier. It also promotes Microsoft services, and bring the company money compared to none. It was a silly move from Ballmer to block this. As it is easy for Microsoft to say: "Hey! You enjoy our ecosystem... its even better on Windows phone". Of course, the ecosystem is still in works as we speak for Android. But it is a start. I won't be surprised that Microsoft uses Windows 10 Mobile as a test platform, to make it on Android. Assuming they can do it. If not, I am sure they'll work with Samsung, which they have a strong partnership recently, to have Samsung Android's to have these features. Samsung being at war with Google, would LOVE this. It would break off Samsung from Google. Just imagine if Microsoft does such arrangement with LG, HTC, and Sony.. people would switch to Microsoft ecosystem, killing Google using their own OS. Just a possible strategy.

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, SansVarnic said:

OK and what is your point. You keep spouting numbers of this vs this but I said Nadella has refocused away from mobile so obviously the numbers will fall, Microsoft does not advertise Windows Phones most people dont even know the phones are still around because of this. Duh factor.

Make a better case.

Well, he is kinda right. From a business perspective, where numbers talk, it makes no sense Nadella directions. And Ballmer was better. Even though, Ballmer is what destroyed Windows Phone, as it used to be more than 5% before with Windows Mobile 6.

[Nowak]

5 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Actually, that is a smart move. Microsoft is trying to build an ecosystem. Imagine one with your Android phone and Windows 10. OneDrive, Office, Groove Music, sync notification, SMS/MMS under Windows 10, Cortana (which means Bing). It can help detach users from Google to Microsoft, and in the case ChromeOS grows, it adds this other barrier. It also promotes Microsoft services, and bring the company money compared to none. It was a silly move from Ballmer to block this. As it is easy for Microsoft to say: "Hey! You enjoy our ecosystem... its even better on Windows phone". Of course, the ecosystem is still in works as we speak for Android. But it is a start.

From my own experiences, Microsoft apps are better on Android than they are Windows Phone.

 

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Even though, Ballmer is what destroyed Windows Phone, as it used to be more than 5% before with Windows Mobile 6.

tbh, if Microsoft launched Windows Phone within the 2007 - 2009 window, rather than 2010, when Android and iOS were starting to establish the smartphone in the home rather than when they already did that, they might have stood a chance in the mobile market. Microsoft basically pissed away every opportunity they had.

[SansVarnic]

1 minute ago, Daring said:

From my own experiences, Microsoft apps are better on Android than they are Windows Phone.

 

tbh, if Microsoft launched Windows Phone within the 2007 - 2009 window, rather than 2010, when Android and iOS were starting to establish the smartphone in the home rather than when they already did that, they might have stood a chance in the mobile market. They basically pissed away every opportunity they had.

Agreed.

[GoodBytes]

10 minutes ago, Daring said:

From my own experiences, Microsoft apps are better on Android than they are Windows Phone

Disagree on that point. I see apps being many steps ahead on Windows 10 Mobile than on Android. This is because Windows 10 mobile apps are Windows 10 apps, and those get crazy updated. Meaning that even if Microsoft pulls the plug on Windows 10 Mobile, Current users will still get the daily or so, Fast Ring builds of Windows 10 apps. They'll lose out on OS bug fixes and new OS features, but apps will continue to have newer features and improvement.

Maybe true when Windows 10 / 10 Mobile was released, but you can see from Windows 10, that is not the case (make the apps in phone window aspect ratio, and this is how they appear on Windows 10 Mobile)

 

[GoodBytes]

5 minutes ago, Daring said:

tbh, if Microsoft launched Windows Phone within the 2007 - 2009 window, rather than 2010, when Android and iOS were starting to establish the smartphone in the home rather than when they already did that, they might have stood a chance in the mobile market. Microsoft basically pissed away every opportunity they had.

They had a chance in 2010. The last window of entry.

Android in 2010 was garbage and looked like crap. It only did well due to not only very low prices, but also carrier subsidizing, like Apple introduced. People bought Android as a cheap iPhone option. If Windows Phone 7 was properly executed as a whole (including carrier subsidizing), and had mass Apple style advertising, it would have sold like hot cakes. Microsoft themselves admitted that carrier subsidizing was something they completely missed out on, and should have went into.

[Nowak]

10 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Disagree on that point. I see apps being many steps ahead on Windows 10 Mobile than on Android. This is because Windows 10 mobile apps are Windows 10 apps, and those get crazy updated. Meaning that even if Microsoft pulls the plug on Windows 10 Mobile, Current users will still get the daily or so, Fast Ring builds of Windows 10 apps. They'll lose out on OS bug fixes and new OS features, but apps will continue to have newer features and improvement.

Ehhh... I had a lot of trouble uploading things to OneDrive on my Lumia Icon, but on my Pixel everything works just fine. Same thing with Microsoft Authenticator, I don't need to open up the app to get a code to authenticate a session, I just have to hit "Yes" or "No" on the notification. There are also Microsoft apps exclusive to Android, although that's mostly just things like lock screens (Next Lock Screen, Picturesque Lock Screen) and launchers (Arrow Launcher). Oh, and News Pro.

 

(speaking of, Arrow Launcher isn't that bad. I recommend it.)

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, Daring said:

Ehhh... I had a lot of trouble uploading things to OneDrive on my Lumia Icon, but on my Pixel everything works just fine. Same thing with Microsoft Authenticator, I don't need to open up the app to get a code to authenticate a session, I just have to hit "Yes" or "No" on the notification. There are also Microsoft apps exclusive to Android, although that's mostly just things like lock screens (Next Lock Screen, Picturesque Lock Screen) and launchers (Arrow Launcher). Oh, and News Pro.

 

(speaking of, Arrow Launcher isn't that bad. I recommend it.)

Arrow launcher is really cool. But that is not needed on Windows 10 Mobile.. and well, it is like saying "Yea our own design is crap, here is another one".  OneDrive music seems to work fine for me. Had issues at first, but MS fixed it. And that feature came on Windows 10 / 10 Mobile first, if I recall correctly.

[Nowak]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

Arrow launcher is really cool. But that is not needed on Windows 10 Mobile.. and well, it is like saying "Yea our own design is crap, here is another one".  OneDrive music seems to work fine for me. Had issues at first, but MS fixed it. And that feature came on Windows 10 / 10 Mobile first, if I recall correctly.

Well, that's the entire point of Android, no? Making it "yours". The customization feels far more powerful than what Windows Phone offers, tbqh.

[GoodBytes]

18 minutes ago, Daring said:

Well, that's the entire point of Android, no? Making it "yours". The customization feels far more powerful than what Windows Phone offers, tbqh.

True. But you fall into what i call the "Linux GUI problem". Trying to please everyone, jam pack every programs with useless options, including changing the title bar of the program, that it makes it hard to find anything, do anything, making the OS uninviting, clustered, and difficult to use. A good app/OS is about finding what matters, and present those as options. Of course, you won't please everyone, and this is why you have different needs.  This is also why many people like Apple products. It is simple. 1 phone (beside size and capacity). Going simply "This is the phone you need", "This is the best experience", "This is simple to use". Now you can argue that Apple is breaking this in the recent years, but you get my point. This is also why Windows is so popular. The OS is a balance of Linux based OS and OSX. While not perfect, you have the simplicity in usage (simple to use, I mean) but with a lot of power under your hands.

 

Windows 10 Mobile presents itself as an OS where you have a file system, you can download program like you can on Windows. I can use Edge download a UWP app, side-load it, all from my phone. I can reset my phone without any PC, which you can't from an iPhone (PC/Mac with iTunes needed), I can make it a Mobile Hotspot whether my carrier likes it or not. I can customize the start screen in many ways, but I can't completely change it, like you can on Android. Now, yes, it is more locked down than Windows 10. Like I don't have access to the registry without a hack, but yea. still fits in between.

 

 

[Nowak]

15 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Windows 10 Mobile presents itself as an OS where you have a file system, you can download program like you can on Windows. I can use Edge download a UWP app, side-load it, all from my phone. I can reset my phone without any PC, which you can't from an iPhone (PC/Mac with iTunes needed), I can make it a Mobile Hotspot whether my carrier likes it or not. I can customize the start screen in many ways, but I can't completely change it, like you can on Android. Now, yes, it is more locked down than Windows 10. Like I don't have access to the registry without a hack, but yea. still fits in between.

But... I can do all of that on my Pixel. If you're really trying to impress me, you'll have to try harder.

[SansVarnic]

1 minute ago, Daring said:

But... I can do all of that on my Pixel. If you're really trying to impress me, you'll have to try harder.

I don't think he trying to impress .. its an apples to apples comparison.

WM iPhone and Android are all strong platforms with different focus just like Windows, iOS and Linux. The comparison is the same for the most part.

[Nowak]

2 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

I don't think he trying to impress .. its an apples to apples comparison.

WM iPhone and Android are all strong platforms with different focus just like Windows, iOS and Linux. The comparison is the same for the most part.

The way how he worded it implied he was trying to brag about those features, when they're... standard Android features. Then again, I've only used phones running stock Android, so I dunno if Samsung or LG phones have additional features. They probably do.

[GoodBytes]

15 minutes ago, Daring said:

The way how he worded it implied he was trying to brag about those features, when they're... standard Android features. Then again, I've only used phones running stock Android, so I dunno if Samsung or LG phones have additional features. They probably do.

No bragging. Saying what you can do with Windows 10 Mobile and Android, but can't with iOS, and pointing things that you can with Android, but can't with Windows 10 Mobile and iOS.... well that was my goal. Trying to point the balanced position that the OS aims to be in power/flexibility and ease of use, much like Windows compared to Linux based OSs and OSX.

 

If you come from OSX, you can say "Are you trying to impress me with what you said with Windows 10? I can do all this in less clicks, and I don't have to worry about security, and many other things, and what I can't do, I don't care". If you come from Linux "Are you trying to impress me with what you said with Windows 10? I can do this and more! WAY more! And with the source code in hand, I can fully customize the OS to make it even run on your microwave"

[SansVarnic]

31 minutes ago, Daring said:

The way how he worded it implied he was trying to brag about those features, when they're... standard Android features. Then again, I've only used phones running stock Android, so I dunno if Samsung or LG phones have additional features. They probably do.

Me thinks you miss understand @GoodBytes that is how he types but then again when one is defending a position it sounds that way any how. I sound that way sometimes myself.

17 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

No bragging. Saying what you can do with Windows 10 Mobile and Android, but can't with iOS, and pointing things that you can with Android, but can't with Windows 10 Mobile and iOS.... well that was my goal. Trying to point the balanced position that the OS aims to be in power/flexibility and ease of use, much like Windows compared to Linux based OSs and OSX.

 

If you come from OSX, you can say "Are you trying to impress me with what you said with Windows 10? I can do all this in less clicks, and I don't have to worry about security, and many other things, and what I can't do, I don't care". If you come from Linux "Are you trying to impress me with what you said with Windows 10? I can do this and more! WAY more! And with the source code in hand, I can fully customize the OS to make it even run on your microwave"

Exactly.