Tabs may be everywhere in future Windows

[TechGod]

15 hours ago, Enderman said:

That's because the OSX "taskbar" is bad compared to windows.

It's not even about that. I don't understand why tabbed programs are a bad thing

[LAwLz]

48 minutes ago, TechGod said:

It's not even about that. I don't understand why tabbed programs are a bad thing

Because:

1) It takes up extra screen real-estate. Just look at the mockup and you will see that it's not only a lot of space but also ugly as hell.

2) Provides the same functionality as the taskbar, but often requires more clicks to do so. 

[suicidalfranco]

18 hours ago, Sauron said:

Is it just me or are free desktops leapfrogging everything proprietary at the moment? They may be less stable but in terms of features they're miles ahead.

well development in free software is driven by actually wanting to improve the damn thing, development in closed software is driven by profit, and holding back on feature to add them later on one by one to have something "revolutionary" to show  at each iteration is a testament to that.

[suits]

They may be there but I won't use them lol. They did that in macOS and it was balls

[Macimoar]

There's an extension available for windows to add tabs to Windows Explorer, but I think it's good that Microsoft is offering it to customers.

Personally I would use it for Explorer because I've had to be searching and copying files from one directory to another and it would be painless with tabs instead of the hell it was.

[ionbasa]

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Because:

1) It takes up extra screen real-estate. Just look at the mockup and you will see that it's not only a lot of space but also ugly as hell.

2) Provides the same functionality as the taskbar, but often requires more clicks to do so. 

Doesn't necessarily have to take up extra space. There's quite a few successful implementations in a variety of software. Best real example I can think of is the 'ribbon' in Office productivity software, Autodesk products, Matlab, Soldworks, etc.

 

Next best case is in browsers: Vivaldi, Edge, Chrome. I always disable the bookmarks bar on loaded pages, I only have it enabled on new tabs. No space lost whatsoever. 

Second best example: SumatraPDF, Foxit, etc.

 

Explorer already has a ribbon style menu with tabs, adding tabbed functionality should be this much of a shocker. I wouldnt 

[LAwLz]

58 minutes ago, ionbasa said:

Doesn't necessarily have to take up extra space. There's quite a few successful implementations in a variety of software. Best real example I can think of is the 'ribbon' in Office productivity software, Autodesk products, Matlab, Soldworks, etc.

 

Next best case is in browsers: Vivaldi, Edge, Chrome. I always disable the bookmarks bar on loaded pages, I only have it enabled on new tabs. No space lost whatsoever. 

Second best example: SumatraPDF, Foxit, etc.

 

Explorer already has a ribbon style menu with tabs, adding tabbed functionality should be this much of a shocker. I wouldnt 

Yeah, but I am talking about the picture of how it might look in Windows.

This is the current theory of how it will look in programs not specifically coded to fully support it (as in, the majority of programs even after the feature being out for several years):

 

 

It doubles the title bar. It even doubles the window controls like minimize and close. Of course this is just a mockup, but if Microsoft aims to make this a system wide things which will be possible without any developer interaction, then it will need to work like this. Otherwise it won't be compatible with programs using their own windowing systems, like Adobe software.

[ArduinoBen]

I personally wouldn't like that feature.  Too ugly.

[TechGod]

On 16/04/2017 at 8:38 PM, LAwLz said:

Because:

1) It takes up extra screen real-estate. Just look at the mockup and you will see that it's not only a lot of space but also ugly as hell.

2) Provides the same functionality as the taskbar, but often requires more clicks to do so. 

How does it take more clicks? Use keyboard shortcut to open a new tab, click on that tab. It's not that hard. 

[LAwLz]

1 minute ago, TechGod said:

How does it take more clicks? Use keyboard shortcut to open a new tab, click on that tab. It's not that hard. 

Taskbar - Click on the window you want.

With tabs - Click on the program you want. Select the tab you want. It not only requires more clicks, but it also requires far more mouse movement, making it significantly slower.

Even if we assume that we can use keyboard shortcuts for everything (which should not be an excuse for making the mouse interface less efficient), you would still need to press more buttons to end up with the same result.

 

This tabbing system seems to work by bundling multiple instances of a program into a single window (the reason why you end up with multiple title bars and window controls).

Keeping the instances in separate windows will be better in some scenarios, and in some having tabs might be more convenient.

 

I can see this being useful for programs which you run many instances of. For example Excel, or Explorer, but for everything else I think it will be worse than what we have today. That's why I am hoping it won't be an all-or-nothing type of deal (or even worse, no option to turn it off).

[BachChain]

but can it tab crysis

[Sharp_3yE]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 11:17 AM, silberdrachi said:

I hate grouping and tabs, drives me up the wall on just about everything that isnt a browser. It just ends up being extra clicks in order to get to the thing i want, instead of just clicking the window i want off the task bar or using alt+tab, etc. I must be in the minority but i really dont see how people like this set up.

i think the short cut is control+tab to pan through tabs. If you had 3 tabs open in Explorer (to looks at different files) you can probably press control+tab. Also its the same amount of clicks. 

[Soonercoop]

Being a big multi monitor user, I am glad to see this functionality. While running surround, accessing different instances of explorer gets infuriating due to the taskbar icon for it being 3-4 ft of monitors away from my workspace at times. Seriously though, IDK why people are sometimes so hostile towards updates and additions to windows like this. The whole point of Windows 10 is for it to update often and be continually evolving rather than the user moving up in editions of the OS. Drastic changes and updates are inherently going to happen and you can't expect otherwise. If you don't like that (I can see why many people don't), then you are in for a treat as Windows evolves over the next decade.

[Soonercoop]

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Taskbar - Click on the window you want.

With tabs - Click on the program you want. Select the tab you want. It not only requires more clicks, but it also requires far more mouse movement, making it significantly slower.

I don't think anyone will be using them like that in most cases. My assumption is (in the final build) it will work like chrome where you can move and stack/unstack tabs seamlessly and the second title bar would only appear if you choose to stack them. Most people would be using this on programs they are actively working on (moving lots of files around in explorer, word docs, spreadsheets, etc.). This way they shouldn't be having to bother going down to the taskbar to mess around with what window is selected. It's up to the user how they do this, but I think most people are not working with so many different apps at once that this would be an issue. For example, they would already have a word doc open and in progress and simply open a second tab from the same window. How could this possibly be an annoyance to users who don't like it? Just don't stack your windows with the tab system. The only difference would then be the plus sign on the title bar to activate it. For people with hidden taskbars or surround/eyefinity just to name a few cases, accessing different tabs at all in the taskbar is a pain in the ass. Keyboard shortcuts are far more reasonable and the tab system would complement them perfectly. Also keep in mind that the average user just stacks windows all over their screen without minimizing and this option declutters that mess significantly. I think there are far better things for one to hate about Windows and if this is one, Linux would certainly suit you better. 

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, TheCMan said:

i think the short cut is control+tab to pan through tabs. If you had 3 tabs open in Explorer (to looks at different files) you can probably press control+tab. Also its the same amount of clicks. 

OK, why do people keep saying it's the same amount of clicks? Have you even counted or are you just parroting what you heard someone else say?

 

Let's give you a scenario.

You got two instances of a program running. The program is currently minimized and you used instance number 1 last.

 

What's the minimum number of actions needed by the user to bring up instance 2 of the program, so that it is ready to be used?

 

Taskbar way - You only need one click. Just click on the instance you want in the taskbar.

Tab way - You need two clicks. One to being up the grouped instance from the taskbar, and then you need to click one more time to change focus from tab 1 to tab 2.

 

The tab way is significantly slower because it not only requires more clicks, but also way more precise mouse movements. Not to mention that it takes up more space.

 

And let me tell you, the scenario I painted is not at all uncommon. It happens to me several times each day, and I doubt I am alone.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Soonercoop21 said:

My assumption is (in the final build) it will work like chrome where you can move and stack/unstack tabs seamlessly and the second title bar would only appear if you choose to stack them

That's what I am hoping too, but right now that remains to be seen.

 

1 hour ago, Soonercoop21 said:

How could this possibly be an annoyance to users who don't like it? Just don't stack your windows with the tab system. The only difference would then be the plus sign on the title bar to activate it.

Again, if you can control this on an application by application basis then I totally agree with you. It's a good addition. But we don't know how it will work so I'll reserve my judgment for now.

[TechGod]

10 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Taskbar - Click on the window you want.

With tabs - Click on the program you want. Select the tab you want. It not only requires more clicks, but it also requires far more mouse movement, making it significantly slower.

Even if we assume that we can use keyboard shortcuts for everything (which should not be an excuse for making the mouse interface less efficient), you would still need to press more buttons to end up with the same result.

 

This tabbing system seems to work by bundling multiple instances of a program into a single window (the reason why you end up with multiple title bars and window controls).

Keeping the instances in separate windows will be better in some scenarios, and in some having tabs might be more convenient.

 

I can see this being useful for programs which you run many instances of. For example Excel, or Explorer, but for everything else I think it will be worse than what we have today. That's why I am hoping it won't be an all-or-nothing type of deal (or even worse, no option to turn it off).

Have you used the OSX tabbing system?

 

One example is without tabs and one is with tabs. 

 

It is is no way intrusive and the feature is not forced on you at all. You can always open a new window if you want. Why would you even want to turn it off if it acts like OSX? 

 

 

And another example:

 

 

[LAwLz]

15 minutes ago, TechGod said:

Have you used the OSX tabbing system?

No I have not, but I have used OS X and I can't think of a worse experience than the pathetic excuse for a "taskbar" OS X has. So I completely understand if OS X users are satisfied with tabs, because the alternative is about as pleasant as going to the dentist.

 

 

15 minutes ago, TechGod said:

It is is no way intrusive and the feature is not forced on you at all. You can always open a new window if you want. Why would you even want to turn it off if it acts like OSX? 

Again, I am just speculating here. Neither you nor I or anyone else in this thread knows what the final version will look like (if it ever gets released). The only thing I have said in this thread is "I hope it works like Y because that would be great. But if it works like Z then I think it will be bad". I really don't see why I now have several people trying to convenience me that it will work in one particular way and that I should like it.

 

If you can revert it back to how it works today, but with the additional benefit of being able to do tabs on an application by application basis then great! I am all for it! But that's not what the mock-up screenshots show, and there has been no other info about this which contradicts it, so for now it's all just speculation how it will work.

It might be great, but Microsoft might fuck it up completely.

Microsoft does not exactly have a good track record when it comes to GUI changes. *cough* Windows 8 start menu *cough*.

 

As for why you would want to turn it off, because it is slower than using multiple windows (I have already explained this several times, with an example in the post you quoted) and it might look ugly as hell and waste space (check the mock-up for how it might look).