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22°C diff by changing thermal paste? Tom's.

tridy

I am not an expert on thermal paste but I have trouble believing that.

 

Some time I watched a video from LTT last year: Delidding an Intel Core i7 6700K - Is it worth it!? and it seemed to make sense, or, at least, something one could expect.

 

Today, I came across an article from Tom,s Hardware "De-Lidding and Overclocking Core i7-7700K with Water and LN2", from March 20, 2017 and they say,

 

Quote

As expected, Intel's thermal interface material trails. The Kryonaut performs only 6°C better. And the Conductonaut gives us a -22°C temperature drop.

 

22 degrees temperature drop by just changing a thermal paste? No way!

 

I don't count on people at Intel being idiots or a "miracle" thermal paste. So, what am I missing, or what were they thinking?

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Please adjust your post quite difficult to read.

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1 minute ago, MonkeyBrainz said:

Intel uses Dow Corning, because unlike these other pastes, it can last decades and only marginally worsen. That's incredibly important for commercial applications, because processors in dummy terminals and office PCs often go unchanged for a decade. My university was on the original core 2 duos in its computer labs before they upgraded to 4790s in my senior year.

the problem isn't just the paste, it's the z height - the space between the IHS and the CPU die; sometimes it's also uneven

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3 minutes ago, tridy said:

I am not an expert on thermal paste but I have trouble believing that.

 

Some time I watched a video from LTT last year: Delidding an Intel Core i7 6700K - Is it worth it!? and it seemed to make sense, or, at least, something one could expect.

 

Today, I came across an article from Tom,s Hardware "De-Lidding and Overclocking Core i7-7700K with Water and LN2", from March 20, 2017 and they say,

 

 

22 degrees temperature drop by just changing a thermal paste? No way!

 

I don't count on people at Intel being idiots or a "miracle" thermal paste. So, what am I missing, or what were they thinking?

 

So Intel uses sub-par thermal interface material, as we know. That doesn't account for everything though. The bigger issue is the inconsistent distance between the die and IHS caused by poor quality gluing of the two parts. Delidding and replacing the TIM with some sort of liquid metal dramatically improve the thermal conductivity.

 

As a side note, most old Intel chips (I think Sandy Bridge and back) as well as AMD CPU's have the IHS actually soldered on, so it can't be removed but conducts heat extremely well. Basically, Intel uses a lame solution.

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3 minutes ago, Rangaman42 said:

As a side note, most old Intel chips (I think Sandy Bridge and back) as well as AMD CPU's have the IHS actually soldered on, so it can't be removed but conducts heat extremely well. Basically, Intel uses a lame solution.

soldering can't be used here because of the surface area you have to work with

when solder cools down it would tear the surface of the die destroying the CPU

 

should Intel invest some more money and improve this, absofuckinglutely

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They had an article 2 months ago about the same thing, it was already reported here few times, albeit with CLU iirc. 

The ability to google properly is a skill of its own. 

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Ok, forget about Intel's paste.

 

The next two steps were their application of Kryonaut  and Conductonaut: 

 

Quote

Intel    82.5°C
Kryonaut    76.5°C
Conductonaut    60.5°C


And this change is 16 degrees difference? Even 5 degrees difference, I would see as a significant step, but 16?

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1 minute ago, tridy said:

And this change is 14 degrees difference? Even 5 degrees difference, I would see as a significant step, but 14?

it's also OCed

it exacerbates the problem as the heat output is increased substantially

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I was trying to eliminate the variables when going from paste1 to paste2 to paste3.

 

The assumptions that I made is that when testing paste2 and paste3, they used:

- the same testing setup

- the same testing methods

 

if this is true, then the paste3 is 16 (sorry about the math, I wrote 14 the first time) degrees better than the paste2.

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Welp, still not gonna try and delid any possible CPUs i might have though. Such process requires too much steadiness and usually 1st attempt doesnt seem to go well from what i have seen.

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3 hours ago, tridy said:

22 degrees temperature drop by just changing a thermal paste? No way!

 

I don't count on people at Intel being idiots or a "miracle" thermal paste. So, what am I missing, or what were they thinking?

In this article they're using different thermal pastes and different cooling solutions than Linus did, and running OCed. It's just another example of Linus kinda half-assing it.

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3 hours ago, tridy said:

22 degrees temperature drop by just changing a thermal paste? No way!

 

I don't count on people at Intel being idiots or a "miracle" thermal paste. So, what am I missing, or what were they thinking?

That's not normal thermal paste, it's "liquid metal" and can perform significantly better than your average paste.

6 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

In this article they're using different thermal pastes and different cooling solutions than Linus did, and running OCed. It's just another example of Linus kinda half-assing it.

Well, Linus did an ok job of comparing the stock paste to something you'd actually use.

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55 minutes ago, Sauron said:

That's not normal thermal paste, it's "liquid metal" and can perform significantly better than your average paste.

Could I ask, why would a "normal user" want to use thermal paste instead of liquid metal like Conductonaut?

If we look just at the first page of the tests, where they only swap the thermal compounds, that is where the 16 degrees difference is interesting. To me it looks like if I buy some liquid metal, apply it to 7700K, it will drop the temperature by at least 10 degrees.

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58 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Well, Linus did an ok job of comparing the stock paste to something you'd actually use.

I do wish he'd used a different cooler, if he just wanted a video about the results a typical user would get from delidding. But yeah it wasn't a bad video, just not in-depth.

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9 minutes ago, tridy said:

Could I ask, why would a "normal user" want to use thermal paste instead of liquid metal like Conductonaut?

If we look just at the first page of the tests, where they only swap the thermal compounds, that is where the 16 degrees difference is interesting. To me it looks like if I buy some liquid metal, apply it to 7700K, it will drop the temperature by at least 10 degrees.

Liquid metal is much more difficult to work with. It's also completely incompatible with aluminium heatsinks or heatspreaders, since gallium destroys aluminium.

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44 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Liquid metal is much more difficult to work with. It's also completely incompatible with aluminium heatsinks or heatspreaders, since gallium destroys aluminium.

It's also highly conductive 

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 hours ago, tridy said:

Could I ask, why would a "normal user" want to use thermal paste instead of liquid metal like Conductonaut?

If we look just at the first page of the tests, where they only swap the thermal compounds, that is where the 16 degrees difference is interesting. To me it looks like if I buy some liquid metal, apply it to 7700K, it will drop the temperature by at least 10 degrees.

Normal users as in people who don't delid. If you don't delid using liquid metal is a bit of a pain in the butt in exchange for low gains - cleaning it off is harder, it's more expensive and in general doesn't make a lot of sense in your average build. Using it as normal thermal paste doesn't yield the same results as using it under the lid.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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2 hours ago, Sauron said:

Normal users as in people who don't delid. If you don't delid using liquid metal is a bit of a pain in the butt in exchange for low gains - cleaning it off is harder, it's more expensive and in general doesn't make a lot of sense in your average build. Using it as normal thermal paste doesn't yield the same results as using it under the lid.

I see. I guess the application of liquid metal in the assembly process would cost Intel too much. I can see some workshops providing the service of going through the process for some extra cost, or some modders selling "relid with liquid metal" processors, if that indeed gives a 20° difference.

 

der8auer managed to delid Ryzen as well, and even though there were no "how to remove the solder and apply liquid metal"  and then "performance results" posted, I hope that it will be definitely not worth doing it in Ryzen case, and assembly line soldering gives better results than Intel's way.

 

Anyhow, it would be nice to see a "relid with liquid metal" video from LTT.

 

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25 minutes ago, tridy said:

I see. I guess the application of liquid metal in the assembly process would cost Intel too much.

it's not about the cost, it's about the unknown

it's still unknown what happens if you use Gallium based TIM for extended periods of time

 

here's a topic from couple years ago: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/long-term-result-of-clu-liquid-metal-tim.2362347/

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1 hour ago, zMeul said:

it's still unknown what happens if you use Gallium based TIM for extended periods of time

Alright, that explains it a bit. Thanks for pointing it out. They say on the Conductonaut page, "excellent long-term stability" but that could mean different things, of course.

Would it be fair to compare liquid metal to an experimental drug -- seems to be working, but could have side effects. Use it at your own risk, sort of :).

 

Quote

here's a topic from couple years ago: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/long-term-result-of-clu-liquid-metal-tim.2362347/

Having problems after 9 months does not sound long-term, but it could be a subject to different types of liquid metal. The photos look scary.

 

The further I go, the better Ryzen soldered solution looks. 

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2 minutes ago, tridy said:

Alright, that explains it a bit. Thanks for pointing it out. They say on the Conductonaut page, "excellent long-term stability" but that could mean different things, of course.

Would it be fair to compare liquid metal to an experimental drug -- seems to be working, but could have side effects. Use it at your own risk, sort of :).

 

Having problems after 9 months does not sound long-term, but it could be a subject to different types of liquid metal. The photos look scary.

 

The further I go, the better Ryzen soldered solution looks. 

Gallium likes to alloy itself with other metals, Copper is no stranger

Nickel plating however is neutral - if everyone would nickel plate the IHS and heatsinks all would be much better for Gallium based TIMs

but until then ... tread with care; Copper Gallium alloy does happen and it's a solid crystalline alloy much like Gallium's natural form

 

 

soldering on small surface die is not going to happen - is explained in previous posts why

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43 minutes ago, zMeul said:

soldering on small surface die is not going to happen - is explained in previous posts why

I meant that AMD solders the lid, and their method should do a better job than Intel's thermal compound between the die and IHS.

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16 minutes ago, tridy said:

I meant that AMD solders the lid, and their method should do a better job than Intel's thermal compound between the die and IHS.

it does do a better job, Ryzen's die has more surface to work with

but .. it still up in the air how it will performs in months, years down the road

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