MicroSoft is actively blocking W7/8/8.1 Windows Updates on KabyLake and Ryzen systems

[harney]

8 hours ago, nerdslayer1 said:

here is a question, how many people are still using window 7 that has kabylake or ryzen cpu, hers is another one how many people do you think care? yelling at how bad Microsoft is in a forum won't change anything. 

I do

built a few Ryzen builds for clients ...on my 6th build and one of them is mine all running 7

For me there are issues with DPC ( Deferred Procedure Call ) with 8.1 & 10 that i do not get with 7 with my DAW set-up's believe me i have spent hours trying to resolve this but in the end i should not have to be wasting my time when it works just fine in 7 ....and with that i should be able to use my new hardware that being Ryzen on 7 with support. also to add most games do run faster under 7 ...M$ have had all most 2 years to perfect 10 but its falling short in games and in DAW use...

Plus

I do not want to be force fed the ultimate spyware / data harvesting suite V 10 while also been led down the garden path....

 

These peeps defending M$ what is wrong with you.. are you blind seems most peeps fall under the spell because its new it must be better faster stronger.... these tactics have to stop M$ should not be allowed to get away with this data harvesting ...how many times have we heard corporations stating its ok your data is safe with us ..only to find out later they been hacked and millions of peoples personal info is out in the wild .....Its just wrong ..People need to wake up and protect your personal info ....

 

What makes it worse i and many others are now being forced into using false online identities  as these corps are abusing the honest peeps credentials ... the problem with false ID's it can fall under fraud which is against the law .....

 

 

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

 

Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean you should just stand there looking on.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".

Agree love that quote

[iamdarkyoshi]

On 3/15/2017 at 10:38 PM, zMeul said:

the W7 upgrade to W10 is no longer available, for quite a long time now

Then why does every win7 key work for me on win10?

[harney]

1 minute ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

Then why does every win7 key work for me on win10?

Sush..... don't tell everybody let them think otherwise

[zMeul]

1 hour ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

Then why does every win7 key work for me on win10?

why are you asking me!!??!

this is the official stance from MS; if it works, good for you

[jmababa]

Well we can edit it from motherboard to accept win 7 or just use a am3+ am4 old motherboard msi motherboard from November to December 2016 which is am3+ am4 compatible

[Whispre]

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 1:00 PM, GoodBytes said:

 

Does it affect most companies?

• Yes, it does. Forcing Windows 10 on these new CPUs, forces companies to actually evaluate and consider upgrading to Windows 10.

Any company IT department worth it's salt is already looking at Win10 upgrades. With hardware refreshes happening on average every 3-4 years, if you roll out a pc or laptop today with Win7, you ensure you'll have to perform an in place OS upgrade before the device is replaced. That is inefficient.

 

We started testing Win10 a year ago, and deploying it on new machines at the start of this year. Since we're on a 3 year replacement cycle, that means the last Win7 box will be replaced shortly before end of extended support. No effort spent upgrading in place machines.

 

 

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 1:00 PM, GoodBytes said:

 

 

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Whispre said:

Any company IT department worth it's salt is already looking at Win10 upgrades. With hardware refreshes happening on average every 3-4 years, if you roll out a pc or laptop today with Win7, you ensure you'll have to perform an in place OS upgrade before the device is replaced. That is inefficient.

I think that's a naive way of looking at things.

It entirely depends on what kind of company you have if it's suitable or not to just start upgrading. Like I said before in this thread, the company I am hired at right now just recently got told that it will be OK to start testing Windows 10 LTSB (and only LTSB) from their parental company.

So testing will start now, but a lot of third party developers are involved too so they have to be contacted and possibly modify their software to support Windows 10. Then there needs to be a lot of testing to see if everything works as it should (when dealing with fine grain machinery even a really minor thing can become a huge issue when left running for several years).

So testing will probably go on for another year or more, and after that the rollout can start.

 

And what should it do in the meantime? Just not buy any new computers?

 

 

For some companies the upgrade will be easy. For some it will be very difficult.

Not to mention that it is a huge slap in the face, and it is breaking the trust. People and companies are expecting support for the periods Microsoft states. They don't expect support to suddenly be dropped 6 years before the end date.

 

Microsoft has broken a bond of trust and I don't think people are upset enough about that.

I would be super happy if Microsoft got sued and lost because of this. They need to stop treating their customers like shit. The sooner the better.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, LAwLz said:

-snip-

This isn't really a surprise to any business if they have been talking to their Microsoft rep in the last 3 years. While I can sympathize with the types businesses that you have pointed out as I've had to deal with that myself Microsoft has made it very clear for a long time now that if you want to get support you need to be fully up to date with all patching (not the ones you select but all) and running a supported OS on a supported platform.

 

In the past they have been much more flexible and working around business needs but that gets costly and tricky very quickly for them as well.

 

Take the new Windows Updates process, no longer do you get individual updates you get roll-ups containing everything. You also get told very quickly when logging a Premier Support case to apply ALL updates before support will progress.

 

IT is changing and sticking to old operating systems for years on end running very old versions of software is trying to be stamped out by as many people as possible and I do support this.

 

Software companies need to vastly improve their update time frames and support new operating systems sooner and push clients to upgrade, businesses also need to do the same in reverse.

 

Everyone needs to come together and work together when it comes to operating systems, software and clients and it is quite evident Microsoft feels that they have been carrying a larger than necessary burned than they should so have responded with a pretty hard-line approach.

 

Sure it sucks but this won't be the last thing Microsoft does to push everyone to not just upgrade to the latest and greatest thing but to stay up to date. Sometimes you just need to come to terms with what is changing and see how you can get on board before you get trampled on again.

 

I don't agree with how they have cut updates like this, not really much else to say and it sucks but I highly doubt complaining is going to change it and I doubt even more their will be any significant legal action over it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't complain as we still need to make our selves heard and make sure they don't pull even more ridiculous things out that hurts even more.

[Guest Darth Revan]

6 hours ago, Whispre said:

Any company IT department worth it's salt is already looking at Win10 upgrades. With hardware refreshes happening on average every 3-4 years, if you roll out a pc or laptop today with Win7, you ensure you'll have to perform an in place OS upgrade before the device is replaced. That is inefficient.

 

We started testing Win10 a year ago, and deploying it on new machines at the start of this year. Since we're on a 3 year replacement cycle, that means the last Win7 box will be replaced shortly before end of extended support. No effort spent upgrading in place machines.

 

 

 

Wrong.

Any company IT department worth it's salt is already looking at alternatives.

[leadeater]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:33 AM, LAwLz said:

Facts are facts. Windows 7 and 8.1 are still under support. Even if you don't think Windows 7 should get updates it is a real scummy move to block Windows 8.1 which is still covered by the mainstream support. Microsoft is flat out just not following their own contracts here.

Not really, extended support has a clear and specific purpose. It is not there for people to deploy new systems/hardware. Fact is Extended Support and Mainstream Support are different and trying to treat them as equivalent is well, stupid.

 

Quote

Mainstream Support
 

Mainstream Support is the first phase of the product lifecycle. At the supported service pack level, Mainstream Support for products and services includes:

• Incident support (no-charge incident support, paid incident support, support charged on an hourly basis, support for warranty claims)
• Security update support
• The ability to request nonsecurity updates

NOTE: Enrollment in a maintenance program may be required to receive these benefits for certain products.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-nz/help/14085/microsoft-business-developer-and-desktop-operating-systems-policy

 

Look at the bold part carefully, "At the supported service pack level".

 

Quote

Extended Support
 

The Extended Support phase follows Mainstream Support for business, developer, and desktop operating system products. At the supported service pack level, Extended Support includes:

• Paid support⁴
• Security update support at no additional cost
• Nonsecurity related updates requires Extended Hotfix Support to be purchased (per-fix fees also apply).⁵
  Extended Hotfix Support is not available for desktop operating system consumer products. More details are available here.

NOTE:

• Microsoft will not accept requests for warranty support, design changes, or new features during the Extended Support phase
• Extended Support is not available for consumer, consumer hardware, or multimedia products
• Enrollment in a maintenance program may be required to receive these benefits for certain products

⁴ Limited complimentary support may be available (varies by product).

⁵ Microsoft Lifecycle policy permits the creation and broad distribution of certain nonsecurity updates during the Extended Support phase. For example, it may be necessary to provide a nonsecurity update that enables continued connectivity and servicing through the Automatic Update or Windows Server Update service.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-nz/help/14085/microsoft-business-developer-and-desktop-operating-systems-policy

 

 

Second note, rather clear what that means. Extended support has only ever been for business customers with Software Assurance or who have paid for extended support, security updates is the only thing that is free and is given to everyone.

 

Right now if you are running Windows 7 at home you DO NOT have extended support.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Not really, extended support has a clear and specific purpose. It is not there for people to deploy new systems/hardware. Fact is Extended Support and Mainstream Support are different and trying to treat them as equivalent is well, stupid.

 

https://support.microsoft.com/en-nz/help/14085/microsoft-business-developer-and-desktop-operating-systems-policy

 

Look at the bold part carefully, "At the supported service pack level".

 

https://support.microsoft.com/en-nz/help/14085/microsoft-business-developer-and-desktop-operating-systems-policy

 

 

Second note, rather clear what that means. Extended support has only ever been for business customers with Software Assurance or who have paid for extended support, security updates is the only thing that is free and is given to everyone.

 

Right now if you are running Windows 7 at home you DO NOT have extended support.

And now, if you are running Windows 7 at business you do not have extended support either...

Microsoft just threw you under a bus.

 

What really bothers me is that Microsoft actually took time and effort into making sure updates were blocked. It's not like they went "unsupported hardware! Update at your own ricks" and then allowed users to select individual updates. If one update didn't work properly on Kaby Lake then the users could avoid it.

Nope, they decided that it would be best to cripple the product their customers paid for and make sure that updates could not be installed.

 

 

I get that they are trying to avoid an XP situation again, but this is not the way to go about it. If they want to avoid an XP situation then they should try and make their OS appealing enough for their customers to change over. Right now, they are trying their hardest to make Windows 10 as appealing to themselves as possible, while ignoring user requests. And when people resist upgrading (despite all the pure evil attempts at tricking people into installing Windows 10) they deliberately cripple the products their customers has already paid for.

 

This entire situation is completely absurd to me, and it is really mind blowing that some people are not upset about it. It is as if Volkswagen remotely disabled the breaks on all their older models. "Sorry, we only guarantee that your breaks work if you use our latest model! It's for your own safety. Our new model is much safer than our last one so we want you to use that instead.".

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

And now, if you are running Windows 7 at business you do not have extended support either...

Microsoft just threw you under a bus.

Well a business never had it before either unless they paid for it.

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What really bothers me is that Microsoft actually took time and effort into making sure updates were blocked. It's not like they went "unsupported hardware! Update at your own ricks" and then allowed users to select individual updates. If one update didn't work properly on Kaby Lake then the users could avoid it.

Nope, they decided that it would be best to cripple the product their customers paid for and make sure that updates could not be installed.

Yea that would have been the more reasonable approach to it but it does allow people to hold on longer to the older OS which is what Microsoft doesn't want. Also the other problem is now with the change in how updates are delivered you can't pick and choose specific updates and not install the problem ones, roll-ups include every update current and past forever so I guess that was a factor in them blocking all updates.

 

Windows 10 is basically a case study on what not to do when releasing new software and dealing with existing customers and how to get them to upgrade. I mean when you have nightly news weather broadcasts interrupted by a force Windows 10 update you know there is something really fucked up.

[LAwLz]

14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

it does allow people to hold on longer to the older OS which is what Microsoft doesn't want.

Yes, and I think that is a horrible thing for Microsoft to be against. They should try and give users more choices, not less. Crippling your own products and harming your consumers is not the right way to go about making people upgrade.

 

14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Also the other problem is now with the change in how updates are delivered you can't pick and choose specific updates and not install the problem ones, roll-ups include every update current and past forever so I guess that was a factor in them blocking all updates.

I think it's the other way around.

They started rolling out updates as a single packet just so that they could get away with things like this and pushing telemetry into updates. When they were releasing updates as individual packets (the sane, and customer caring approach) people just pressed hide on those updates.

But since Microsoft wants to make their old products worse they now bundle the flat out malicious updates inside the actual security updates.

 

Again, how anyone is OK with this is beyond me.

 

14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Windows 10 is basically a case study on what not to do when releasing new software and dealing with existing customers and how to them to upgrade. I mean when you have nightly news weather broadcasts interrupted by a force Windows 10 update you know there is something really fucked up.

Yeah, but it does not seem like Microsoft agrees. If anything, they have just tried more and more scummy methods of getting what they want while completely ignoring what is best for their customers.

 

Microsoft is doing the exact opposite of what I want a company to do.

I like when a company sets out to make a great product and/or solve a problem, and then once that is done they figure out how to profit from it. Right now it seems like Microsoft has figured out a way to profit, and then they are trying to solve that "problem" for themselves, while putting their customers and product quality as their third, or fourth priority.

 

It's not like there is a shortage of suggestions how to make Windows 10 better. There are several things that are (almost) universally agreed on are issues and with rather easy solutions. Things like forced telemetry, forced upgrades and so on.

[Whispre]

 

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

It entirely depends on what kind of company you have if it's suitable or not to just start upgrading. Like I said before in this thread, the company I am hired at right now just recently got told that it will be OK to start testing Windows 10 LTSB (and only LTSB) from their parental company.

So in this case, it's your parent companies IT department that dropped the ball, not yours.

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

So testing will start now, but a lot of third party developers are involved too so they have to be contacted and possibly modify their software to support Windows 10. Then there needs to be a lot of testing to see if everything works as it should (when dealing with fine grain machinery even a really minor thing can become a huge issue when left running for several years).

So testing will probably go on for another year or more, and after that the rollout can start.

This is exactly why we started testing more than a year ago. We were informed by our MS TAM close to two years ago that there would be support / compatibility issues with Kaby Lake and Windows 7. We were told even longer ago than that that support (extended) for Win7 would end when it does. A responsible IT department takes those indicators and creates a road map, factors in roll out time, testing time, validation time etc and figures out when they need to start the process so they don't end up with unsupported devices.

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

And what should it do in the meantime? Just not buy any new computers?

If you'd started this process earlier (or in this case had your parent company allowed you to start earlier) you'd be able to roll out brand new Kaby Lake devices with Win10 today like we do.

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

 

For some companies the upgrade will be easy. For some it will be very difficult.

Not to mention that it is a huge slap in the face, and it is breaking the trust. People and companies are expecting support for the periods Microsoft states. They don't expect support to suddenly be dropped 6 years before the end date.

the systems that are deployed in a supported configuration (not Win7 on KL) are fully supported for the duration of extended support, they are not taking anything away. With every software, every company, the support they provide depends on you installing it in a supported manner on supported hardware (physical or virtual). This is not a Microsoft thing, this is the way hardware and software support works. Kaby Lake is not, nor ever has been on the validated hardware list for Windows 7, thus there is nothing to be taken away.

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

Microsoft has broken a bond of trust and I don't think people are upset enough about that.

I would be super happy if Microsoft got sued and lost because of this. They need to stop treating their customers like shit. The sooner the better.

Microsoft, through our TAM, has in fact work diligently with us, even provided us with free outside resources to help with systems validation, user training, and migration assistance for the past 2 years. If you're an enterprise IT service, and you're not taking advantage of the services Microsoft provides (TAM/adoptance assistance/etc) that's on you.

[jagdtigger]

26 minutes ago, Whispre said:

 

So in this case, it's your parent companies IT department that dropped the ball, not yours.

This is exactly why we started testing more than a year ago. We were informed by our MS TAM close to two years ago that there would be support / compatibility issues with Kaby Lake and Windows 7. We were told even longer ago than that that support (extended) for Win7 would end when it does. A responsible IT department takes those indicators and creates a road map, factors in roll out time, testing time, validation time etc and figures out when they need to start the process so they don't end up with unsupported devices.

If you'd started this process earlier (or in this case had your parent company allowed you to start earlier) you'd be able to roll out brand new Kaby Lake devices with Win10 today like we do.

the systems that are deployed in a supported configuration (not Win7 on KL) are fully supported for the duration of extended support, they are not taking anything away. With every software, every company, the support they provide depends on you installing it in a supported manner on supported hardware (physical or virtual). This is not a Microsoft thing, this is the way hardware and software support works. Kaby Lake is not, nor ever has been on the validated hardware list for Windows 7, thus there is nothing to be taken away.

Microsoft, through our TAM, has in fact work diligently with us, even provided us with free outside resources to help with systems validation, user training, and migration assistance for the past 2 years. If you're an enterprise IT service, and you're not taking advantage of the services Microsoft provides (TAM/adoptance assistance/etc) that's on you.

Now this is funny, they doing this precisely because there is no compatibility issue with newer CPU's and therefore no-one wants their glorified spyware... (BTW if any IT department allows win10 they are pretty much incompetent/lazy).

[Whispre]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

 (BTW if any IT department allows win10 they are pretty much incompetent/lazy).

This statement simply shows your lack of knowledge of Enterprise IT, And/Or your personal bias which is overriding reason.

[jagdtigger]

Just now, Whispre said:

This statement simply shows your lack of knowledge of Enterprise IT, And/Or your personal bias which is overriding reason.

Quite the contrary. Enterprise IT always strict about software and have a strict policy what a program "allowed to do". Now then AFAIK all versions of win10 pretty much ignores any mod, and bypasses the hosts file just to send telemetry to MS which contains undisclosed amount and type of data. Sorry but i cant see how it can pass any security checks with that gaping security hole... And seeing how desperate they are to force everyone to 10 so i highly doubt its just data needed for debugging. Top it off with the few "accidents" where updates overwrote user settings.

 

If you still dont get it then dont even bother to reply.

[Whispre]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

Quite the contrary. Enterprise IT always strict about software and have a strict policy what a program "allowed to do". Now then AFAIK all versions of win10 pretty much ignores any mod, and bypasses the hosts file just to send telemetry to MS which contains undisclosed amount and type of data. Sorry but i cant see how it can pass any security checks with that gaping security hole... And seeing how desperate they are to force everyone to 10 so i highly doubt its just data needed for debugging. Top it off with the few "accidents" where updates overwrote user settings.

 

If you still dont get it then dont even bother to reply.

 

Tell me,

 

Have you personally used the Enterprise Version of Windows 10 on an Active Directory domain? Have you set up Group Policy GPO's to control telemetry and default settings for all clients? Have you set up your firewalls to block or allow whatever traffic you want to control? Have you done default branding when your Win10 setup is imaged from your Configuration Manager system? Have you set up SCCM to control patching to deploy to your clients when and how you want?

 

Our users don't see adds, telemetry is tightly controlled, and the user interface, app store, One drive, etc is all controlled centrally by us.

 

Our internal surveys also tell us that 78% of our user base prefers their new Win10 PC/Laptop over their old Win7 one.

 

 

I believe I do get it... I believe you don't.

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Whispre said:

 

Tell me,

 

Have you personally used the Enterprise Version of Windows 10 on an Active Directory domain? Have you set up Group Policy GPO's to control telemetry and default settings for all clients? Have you set up your firewalls to block or allow whatever traffic you want to control? Have you done default branding when your Win10 setup is imaged from your Configuration Manager system? Have you set up SCCM to control patching to deploy to your clients when and how you want?

 

Our users don't see adds, telemetry is tightly controlled, and the user interface, app store, One drive, etc is all controlled centrally by us.

 

Our internal surveys also tell us that 78% of our user base prefers their new Win10 PC/Laptop over their old Win7 one.

 

 

I believe I do get it... I believe you don't.

Its the other way around. Any proper security expert would understand this, but you arent one thats for sure.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Whispre said:

 

Tell me,

 

Have you personally used the Enterprise Version of Windows 10 on an Active Directory domain? Have you set up Group Policy GPO's to control telemetry and default settings for all clients? Have you set up your firewalls to block or allow whatever traffic you want to control? Have you done default branding when your Win10 setup is imaged from your Configuration Manager system? Have you set up SCCM to control patching to deploy to your clients when and how you want?

 

Our users don't see adds, telemetry is tightly controlled, and the user interface, app store, One drive, etc is all controlled centrally by us.

 

Our internal surveys also tell us that 78% of our user base prefers their new Win10 PC/Laptop over their old Win7 one.

 

 

I believe I do get it... I believe you don't.

Plus under Windows 10 Enterprise and Education editions you can completely disable all telemetry, so this is a case of know your outrage or it just looks dumb 

[GoodBytes]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Plus under Windows 10 Enterprise and Education editions you can completely disable all telemetry, so this is a case of know your outrage or it just looks dumb 

I am not sure on Education, I need to double check, but for Windows 10 Enterprise, no you can't.

Even if in the registry you can set "AllowTelemetry", and put it to 0 9which is the same as going through Group Policy panel). It is not disabled.

 

Microsoft docs says:

 

 

So all you have, is a new level 0. Which still transfer data.

 

Microsoft defines each level as:

Quote

• Security. Information that’s required to help keep Windows, Windows Server, and System Center secure, including data about the Connected User Experience and Telemetry component settings, the Malicious Software Removal Tool, and Windows Defender.

• Basic. Basic device info, including: quality-related data, app compatibility, app usage data, and data from the Security level.

• Enhanced. Additional insights, including: how Windows, Windows Server, System Center, and apps are used, how they perform, advanced reliability data, and data from both the Basic and the Security levels.

• Full. All data necessary to identify and help to fix problems, plus data from the Security, Basic, and Enhanced levels.

 

See here for more information: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-ca/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I am not sure on Education, I need to double check, but for Windows 10 Enterprise, no you can't.

Even if in the registry you can set "AllowTelemetry", and put it to 0 9which is the same as going through Group Policy panel). It is not disabled.

 

Microsoft docs says:

 

 

So all you have, is a new level 0. Which still transfer data.

 

Microsoft defines each level as:

 

See here for more information: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-ca/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization

You can disable it, that ability to do so was added after many enterprise customers complained.

 

 

Policy also tells you what editions it can be applied to, even if you try and set it in say Professional it will have no effect.

 

 

[Droidbot]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You can disable it, that ability to do so was added after many enterprise customers complained.

 

 

Policy also tells you what editions it can be applied to, even if you try and set it in say Professional it will have no effect.

 

 

Hm. I still like professional, no forced updates. Might install Edu on my laptop, idk. 

[Dabombinable]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You can disable it, that ability to do so was added after many enterprise customers complained.

 

 

Policy also tells you what editions it can be applied to, even if you try and set it in say Professional it will have no effect.

 

 

I think @GoodBytesis talking about after that.

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I am not sure on Education, I need to double check, but for Windows 10 Enterprise, no you can't.

Even if in the registry you can set "AllowTelemetry", and put it to 0 (which is the same as going through Group Policy panel). It is not disabled.

 

Microsoft docs says:

 

 

So all you have, is a new level 0. Which still transfer data.

 

Microsoft defines each level as:

 

See here for more information: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-ca/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization

In other words, it says that its disabled, but its actually not.