Further proof that Windows 10 is causing a perf hit with the Ryzen CPU

[TechGod]

2 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

[speculation] There could be differences in the scheduler between Win 7 and Win 10 that had no impact (not negative at least) for existing Intel and AMD CPUs. It could happen then that, when Ryzen came out, the way Win 7 did things suited it better, in which case an update in Win 10 is needed for it to do things "Win 7 style" when the installed processor sports the Zen architecture. [/speculation]

Pretty much what I'm thinking too. It's def the scheduler since the CPU itself is VERY capable. 

[Cheddle]

No mention of HPET being enabled/disabled in Windows 10

 

Having HPET enabled in windows 10 is enough to cause these types of drops. Id like to see a test including W7, W10 w/ HPET & W10 wo/ HPET.

[TechGod]

22 minutes ago, Cheddle said:

No mention of HPET being enabled/disabled in Windows 10

 

Having HPET enabled in windows 10 is enough to cause these types of drops. Id like to see a test including W7, W10 w/ HPET & W10 wo/ HPET.

Check the thread he mentions he tried with both on and off. 

[Serin]

W7 performs pretty consistently better than w10 in a lot of 3d rendering applications.
Is interesting.

[rattacko123]

So much for AMD saying Ryzen is not optimized supported for Windows 7 
 

Edited March 5, 2017 by rattacko123
changed "optimized" to "supported"

[Guest Darth Revan]

2 hours ago, SamStrecker said:

 

What? That doesn't make sense. Windows 7 came out in 2009 and windows 10 is MUCH newer. According to MS windows 10 has support for all the latest and greatest so the results should be flipped. 

Newer doesn't mean it's going to be better.

2 hours ago, huilun02 said:

How is it that an older Windows performs better? I'm willing to bet that on Haswell we will see the same phenomenon when moving to W10.

Because Win10 was developed by monkeys.

[Dabombinable]

Considering Ryzen is different again from previous architectures, its understandable that there is a performance hit. Remember Windows 7 needing an update to correctly handle the FX range? (And even then-it still performed like shit outside of a few very specific tasks)

[TechGod]

28 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Considering Ryzen is different again from previous architectures, its understandable that there is a performance hit. Remember Windows 7 needing an update to correctly handle the FX range? (And even then-it still performed like shit outside of a few very specific tasks)

Well it performed like shit then because it was shit:P 

 

Clearly the Ryzen architecture itself is very capable unlike Bulldozer 

[Kobz360]

5 minutes ago, TechGod said:

Well it performed like shit then because it was shit:P 

 

Clearly the Ryzen architecture itself is very capable unlike Bulldozer 

This is what I've been trying to say the whole time. The comparisons with BD are arguably unwarranted because bulldozer clearly had shit (specifically single-threaded) performance from the start and could never really make up it's performance deficit elsewhere. AMD made decent improvements all the way up to excavator, specifically with the iGPU but the CPU performance itself was just architecturally doomed from the start. That's not to say FX was completely terrible, it just wasn't good enough to stay up to par with Intel. 

 

Ryzen is clearly very capable as proven in all of the non-gaming based benchmarks, yet for some reason performs unusually bad in gaming relative to its performance elsewhere. 

[Master Disaster]

4 hours ago, Captain Chaos said:

If only people would stop thinking that the 3 CPU's that are currently out are "Ryzen".  They're only the R7 branch and most likely were never intended to go head to head with the 7700K.  The R5 and the R3 CPUs will be much better suited for that job (CPUs with fewer cores tend to run higher speeds).

 

The R7 is a productivity-oriented CPU, not a gaming CPU. 

That's why they literally advertised them as the best performers for gamers, showed demos of them running BF1 against the 7700K and bragged about how much better they are for Twitch Streamers.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 hour ago, Kobz360 said:

That's not to say FX was completely terrible, it just wasn't good enough to stay up to par with Intel. 

That's a very important clarification. Many times you see people fooled by relative performances when talking about absolute performance. Bulldozer was a sideways move from Phenom II, at least initially (people still cite day 1 reviews about Bulldozer having lower IPC than Phenom II, which wasn't really the case later on, and clearly far from true with Piledriver), and based mostly on higher clocks (and arguably core count) and additional instruction sets. So if you remove the core count part, that's basically Skylake to KabyLake, except there's no sideways change either, it's purely higher clocks and one instruction set. 

The only difference between Bulldozer and KabyLake is that Intel didn't have a competitor making a step-up of the magnitude of Core 2 to Sandy Bridge from a similar starting point (funny enough, AMD is making a huge jump, but unfortunately not precisely from Skylake levels). So the legend will remain that Bulldozer was terrible and R&D teams at AMD are braindead monkeys, while KabyLake was barely "meh-ish, but still king" and Intel R&D teams are lazy geniuses spoiled by lack of competition.

 

The true lesson I would take is that there's a lot of uncertainty in R&D, that groundbreaking ideas don't grow on trees, and that we must rejoice when they happen rather than take them for granted. And that 13-yo spoiled gamers could show some humbleness when discussing the work of professional engineers which they barely can understand  

[TechGod]

25 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

That's why they literally advertised them as the best performers for gamers, showed demos of them running BF1 against the 7700K and bragged about how much better they are for Twitch Streamers.

I'm sorry but how the twitch streamers thing a lie? The 7700k sits at around 80-90 percent usage while Ryzen sits at like 50-60. Obviously the lower CPU usage WILL help gaming and streaming. That's obvious. 

[Master Disaster]

2 minutes ago, TechGod said:

I'm sorry but how the twitch streamers thing a lie? The 7700k sits at around 80-90 percent usage while Ryzen sits at like 50-60. Obviously the lower CPU usage WILL help gaming and streaming. That's obvious. 

I never said its a lie, I said why advertise that their product can do something better than Intels gaming CPUs and that's almost entirely done by gamers if the product they're advertising is not meant to be used for gaming?

[Brooksie359]

24 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I never said its a lie, I said why advertise that their product can do something better than Intels gaming CPUs and that's almost entirely done by gamers if the product they're advertising is not meant to be used for gaming?

Streaming Dota doesn't require a cpu that has the best single core performance in the business. It does however require a good amount of threads to do it well. Ryzen is good for those who want to stream to twitch games like cs:go Dota and league. 

[tlink]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

I never said its a lie, I said why advertise that their product can do something better than Intels gaming CPUs and that's almost entirely done by gamers if the product they're advertising is not meant to be used for gaming?

nobody says its not meant to be used with games, it just isn't its target audience. they try to tap in on as many markets as possible, just as intel does with the i7 6850k, which also isn't better for gaming than an i7 7700k in 99% of the cases.

[SCHISCHKA]

6 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

Just saying that AMD set a precedent with Witcher 3 (the latest that I can think of) and a driver update fixed everything. It seems too often that reactions such as "hur dur Windoes x sucks for gaming" when it could be as easy as let a programmer make a new driver to address the hardware for better performance.

There's a post here from a nvidia driver developer that explains it https://www.gamedev.net/topic/666419-what-are-your-opinions-on-dx12vulkanmantle/#entry5215019

[leadeater]

Just now, Praesi said:

You mean that awesome 30FPS Paperweights? Serious..didnt happen in the past, will not happen in the near future. Im not bias, just facts.

PSVR says hi and laughs at PC VR sales. Not a console fan but not ignorant of how well consoles sell, 30 fps is a terrible way to look at this.

 

Consoles have always sold very well, sales numbers are easily found. Why do you think game developers are console first and PC port so much now, much better sales.

[Master Disaster]

12 minutes ago, tlink said:

nobody says its not meant to be used with games, it just isn't its target audience. they try to tap in on as many markets as possible, just as intel does with the i7 6850k, which also isn't better for gaming than an i7 7700k in 99% of the cases.

Except the guy I quoted literally said R7s are not gaming CPUs in the quote is my original post.

 

And if its not the target audience then why did they target them with advertisements during the build up to Zen?

 

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

Streaming Dota doesn't require a cpu that has the best single core performance in the business. It does however require a good amount of threads to do it well. Ryzen is good for those who want to stream to twitch games like cs:go Dota and league. 

You totally ignored my point and answered a different question, are you a politician?

 

If, as users here are claiming, Ryzen is not meant for gamers then why did AMD do gaming orientated advertisements during the build up to Ryzen?

[tlink]

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Except the guy I quoted literally said R7s are not gaming CPUs in the quote is my original post.

 

And if its not the target audience then why did they target them with advertisements during the build up to Zen?

any cpu can be used for gaming, its really silly to argue if its a gaming cpu or not because its not a technical term.

 

because a company always tries to tap in as many markets as possible to create a diverse income revenue stream. they just showed gaming performance as a side thing to get us riled up for the ryzen lineup as a whole. gamers are not the intended users for a cpu like that. how many times am i going to have to pull the 6850k into this to explain that ithe r7's target audience is the same audience as the 6850k target audience.

[Nineshadow]

8 hours ago, SCHISCHKA said:

i would just say consider consoles are using AMD's chips and expect to see more game developers ditching Intel's biased and expensive compiler

What? The compiler used by game developers doesn't have any importance here.

[SCHISCHKA]

15 minutes ago, Nineshadow said:

What? The compiler used by game developers doesn't have any importance here.

Read what I was responding to

[XenosTech]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

That's why they literally advertised them as the best performers for gamers, showed demos of them running BF1 against the 7700K and bragged about how much better they are for Twitch Streamers.

Can you post a link to the exact quote by amd because afaik they showed it off as a productivity cpu first and a gamer second. Hence all the blender, cinebench and handbrake demos and then from there they showed bf1 at 4k (Which everyone in this god damn forum knows is gpu bound) and they showed a lil bit of it doing gaming and streaming which benefits from having more cores and threads (that was the only demo afaik they lined up the r7 vs the 7700k directly)

[Valentyn]

9 hours ago, SamStrecker said:

 

What? That doesn't make sense. Windows 7 came out in 2009 and windows 10 is MUCH newer. According to MS windows 10 has support for all the latest and greatest so the results should be flipped. 

Windows 10 scheduler apparently tries to treat Ryzen SMT threads like actual physical threads, causing performance issues.

It sees Ryzen as 16c/16t in some tasks, as opposed to 8c/16t.

Apparently it'll be fixed via a Windows patch/driver.

[Valentyn]

6 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

Considering Ryzen is different again from previous architectures, its understandable that there is a performance hit. Remember Windows 7 needing an update to correctly handle the FX range? (And even then-it still performed like shit outside of a few very specific tasks)

I remember installing an AMD Driver for Windows XP for my Athlon 64 X2 4200+ as well.

 

I'm just disappointed AMD bungled their launch in regards to all this. Motherboard manufactures not having finished BIOSs and drivers which negatively impacts performance and RAM frequencies/latency.

 

Also Windows 10 Scheduler issues, which again is causing performance issues.

It honestly looks like they should have simply waiting another month at least.

[Praesi]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

PSVR says hi and laughs at PC VR sales. Not a console fan but not ignorant of how well consoles sell, 30 fps is a terrible way to look at this.

 

Consoles have always sold very well, sales numbers are easily found. Why do you think game developers are console first and PC port so much now, much better sales.

Yes. I know that. People take that Console bashing way too serious ? And of course PSVR sells better.

 900€ for a Vive with mostly just Minigames to play, is insane.