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Thoughts after watching Rogue One.

Okjoek

I finally got around to watching it and I thought it was pretty neat. I was more confused at the beginning with all the unknown characters, but as time passed and got closer and closer to the end I was seeing how it was building the backstory for Episode 4 A New Hope and I learned to love most of the characters.

 

I can't help but feel sorry for Krennic, like he did some bad stuff, but part of me kind of feels he wasn't treated fairly. Plus he had an awesome soundtrack.

And what's with his weird elite guard unit? They sound like droids in the movie, but I wasn't sure.

 

I liked how this movie focused less on the force using and more on the awesome blaster fights.

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It was worth my £5.50 plus £2.70 travel but I'm not exactly queuing up to watch it again

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Impossibly weak characters and wooden acting. A lot better than The Force Awakens (that doesn't take much effort), but not what I'd expect from a Star Wars movie.

 

However, that Darth Vader scene. Oh boy. Fanservice done right.

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3 hours ago, Okjoek said:

I finally got around to watching it and I thought it was pretty neat. I was more confused at the beginning with all the unknown characters, but as time passed and got closer and closer to the end I was seeing how it was building the backstory for Episode 4 A New Hope and I learned to love most of the characters.

 

I can't help but feel sorry for Krennic, like he did some bad stuff, but part of me kind of feels he wasn't treated fairly. Plus he had an awesome soundtrack.

And what's with his weird elite guard unit? They sound like droids in the movie, but I wasn't sure.

 

I liked how this movie focused less on the force using and more on the awesome blaster fights.

Krennic was an excellent character, precisely because what he's doing, he believes is right and necessary for protecting the empire and it's citizens. If some have to die for the greater good, he finds that justifiable. He was a good villain.

 

His elite guard unit were basically just "best of the best" special ops storm troopers. They had voice distortion units built into their helmets, most likely to provide intimidation on the battlefield (speculation on my part). They most likely have encrypted comlink channels between each other that outsiders cannot hear.

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3 hours ago, Aereldor said:

Impossibly weak characters and wooden acting. A lot better than The Force Awakens (that doesn't take much effort), but not what I'd expect from a Star Wars movie.

 

However, that Darth Vader scene. Oh boy. Fanservice done right.

I personally enjoyed the change of pace for a SW movie. The grittiness made me happy. However, I agree that multiple characters where laghably shallow.

- snip-

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1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

Krennic was an excellent character, precisely because what he's doing, he believes is right and necessary for protecting the empire and it's citizens. If some have to die for the greater good, he finds that justifiable. He was a good villain.

 

His elite guard unit were basically just "best of the best" special ops storm troopers. They had voice distortion units built into their helmets, most likely to provide intimidation on the battlefield (speculation on my part). They most likely have encrypted comlink channels between each other that outsiders cannot hear.

One thing about him that jumped out about me is how he sent a majority of his personal guards out to support in the battle leaving himself more vulnerable. Not sure if that was designed to appear selfless.

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2 minutes ago, Okjoek said:

One thing about him that jumped out about me is how he sent a majority of his personal guards out to support in the battle leaving himself more vulnerable. Not sure if that was designed to appear selfless.

Not selfless, exactly - I think that he didn't feel like he was personally in danger yet. He was on the Command Deck after all, which no doubt has a ton of security as-is. He felt that his soldiers could do more good on the front lines, then standing beside him waiting for something to happen. He needed to get a hold of the situation ASAP, or else risk losing even more power to Tarkin... or worse, catching Vader's displeasure.

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7 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Not selfless, exactly - I think that he didn't feel like he was personally in danger yet. He was on the Command Deck after all, which no doubt has a ton of security as-is. He felt that his soldiers could do more good on the front lines, then standing beside him waiting for something to happen. He needed to get a hold of the situation ASAP, or else risk losing even more power to Tarkin... or worse, catching Vader's displeasure.

I think some of the characters they didn't explain enough was the blind guy and his friend with the heavy weapons (forget if they even had names). Like I was left questioning why they were even there most of the movie.

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4 hours ago, Aereldor said:

Impossibly weak characters and wooden acting. A lot better than The Force Awakens (that doesn't take much effort), but not what I'd expect from a Star Wars movie.

 

However, that Darth Vader scene. Oh boy. Fanservice done right.

You can't build up characters like that in 2 and a half hours only to kill them in 2 and a half hours. Anyone who makes that point is really just trying to come up with reasons to hate the movie.

 

It would be pointless to have separate movies anyway since they have no importance other than finding the plans.

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4 minutes ago, Okjoek said:

I think some of the characters they didn't explain enough was the blind guy and his friend with the heavy weapons (forget if they even had names). Like I was left questioning why they were even there most of the movie.

There's a little info about them. Basically, they were both "Guardians of the Whills", which are a society of monks that sought to protect the ancient Jedi temples on the planet. The guy with the big-ass gun lost his faith at some point, but stayed around to protect the blind guy.

 

They were there because their home was destroyed, and the blind guy believed in the cause. The other guy simply followed the blind guy as a sign of loyalty and friendship.

 

But it's an ensemble movie. There simply isn't enough time to give everyone fleshed out backstories.

 

Expect to learn more about BOTH of these characters in future EU content, such as Rebels TV show, or the books/comics.

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20 hours ago, theninja35 said:

You can't build up characters like that in 2 and a half hours only to kill them in 2 and a half hours. Anyone who makes that point is really just trying to come up with reasons to hate the movie.

 

It would be pointless to have separate movies anyway since they have no importance other than finding the plans.

I disagree. You can create likeable characters in the span of mere minutes. Obi-Wan Kenobi in the original Star Wars only had an hour of screentime. In fact, over two hours, the every single character in the original Star Wars was both likeable in some way and indisputably memorable. Han Solo didn't die, but he remains one of the most memorable characters in cinema history. 

 

Don Vito Corleone is dead by the end of the first Godfather movie. He was built up well, seemed authentic, was enormously likeable and entertaining, and will also go down as one of the best characters and one of the best portrayals in film history.

 

The character that dies at the end of Forrest Gump is also extremely memorable, and while you may not always like that character, the character has an impact. 

 

The Usual Suspects only leaves a handful of characters alive through the course of its narrative, and yet you remember every single one, because they were likeable to some degree, entertaining, well-written, and well portrayed.

 

Twelve Angry Men is only 90 minutes long, and none of the characters are even named. You only receive two surnames at the very end of the movie. Yet, all the characters are memorable. Some are likeable, others are entertaining, and you enjoy watching all of them.

 

I could go on forever. This is a terrible defense and you know it. In the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi-

Quote

Clumsy and random

 

These characters were just lazily written. They just assume the viewers will fill in the multitude of holes, the relationships make no sense (why does the heavy armor guy wind up calling Jyn 'Little Sister'? It seems more stupid than endearing, because they've barely exchanged ten words. Why do the rebel sniper and Jyn wind up bonding and holding hands at the last minute? They haven't had any time to interact or share anything. Jyn is written so one-dimensionally, it's painful to watch, and the rebel sniper (I think it was Cassius or something) is written to be 'just interested enough', but 'disinterested enough to seem cool'.

 

What about Saw Gerrerra? He seems to flip between completely bonkers and very serious depending on what the plot demands. Instead of seeming fanatical or unstable, like he's described, he just seems inauthentic. Those out-of-character moments really break the fourth wall. The whole 'tentacle-mind-wipe-monster' scene and everything around it was so stupid, I inconvenienced an entire row of moviegoers with a really loud laugh, and none of them cared. They couldn't take it seriously either.

 

Then there's the laughably clumsy continuity issue. What about the 'several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies'? No again. Several transmissions were beamed to another ship, and then a group of Rebel soldiers played bloody handball to get them to Leia's ship while being chased down by Darth Vader. If viewed in chonological order, that would mean Darth Vader completely forgets the moment the plans elude his grasp, and tells a different story. That would be out of character.

 

Your defense sounds like someone who doesn't have any real defense for the movie's characters. Come up with a real reason.

 

The movie looked nice. The space battle was great. Darth Vader was great. The rest of this film? While I have respect for it trying to be original rather than copying the original Star Wars scene for goddamn scene like The Force Awakens did, I don't think it's a very good Star Wars movie. The prequels don't lower the bar- Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi are still the target. Books like Heir to the Empire and games like KoTOR raise the bar. Not copying is not good enough - a movie needs to more than simply avoid plagiarism to be a good movie

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15 hours ago, MrDynamicMan said:

I personally enjoyed the change of pace for a SW movie. The grittiness made me happy. However, I agree that multiple characters where laghably shallow.

There is plenty of grit in the Star Wars franchise. The expanded universe puts any of the movie's narratives to shame. You need only play Knights of the Old Republic once to experience this, with the sequel getting even darker. The Force Unleashed, while not having the most stellar narrative, has an incredibly gritty atmosphere. Republic Commando cranks it up to eleven and beyond.

 

You want a dark narrative? Read 'Darth Bane', 'Heir to the Empire', the Dark Nest trilogy, or Legacy of the Force. You'll get it in spades. I think the atmosphere of Rogue One was terribly shallow too, and that's just in comparison to the original trilogy.

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6 hours ago, Aereldor said:

-snip-

Then there's the enormous continuity issues. What about the many Bothans that died to bring them those plans? Not a single Bothan in the movie. What about the 'several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies'? No again. Several transmissions were beamed to another ship, and then a group of Rebel soldiers played bloody handball to get them to Leia's ship while being chased down by Darth Vader.

-snip-

Gonna stop you right here.

 

The Bothans stole the plans to the Second Death Star. It was Mon Mothma in RotJ that said "Many bothan's died to bring us this information". This was ~4 years later, in the continuity, compared to what you're thinking.

 

As for the several transmissions statement? Call it a retconn and move on with life. I think that was changed simply because the original statement was somewhat clumsy and it didn't fit the narrative they wanted to tell. And frankly, the way the Death Star 1 plans are retrieved was done quite well. Having them "retransmit" the transmission would have seemed redundant. As for the "this ship" part, the Tantive IV was docked aboard the cruiser who received the transmission, so I think that's close enough - you're splitting hairs. Not to say you're wrong about it. You're definitely correct in that this is a small continuity error (Or Vader simply Misspoke in Episode IV). But it's inconsequential, in my opinion, and doesn't harm the film.

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1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Gonna stop you right here.

 

The Bothans stole the plans to the Second Death Star. It was Mon Mothma in RotJ that said "Many bothan's died to bring us this information". This was ~4 years later, in the continuity, compared to what you're thinking.

 

As for the several transmissions statement? Call it a retconn and move on with life. I think that was changed simply because the original statement was somewhat clumsy and it didn't fit the narrative they wanted to tell. And frankly, the way the Death Star 1 plans are retrieved was done quite well. Having them "retransmit" the transmission would have seemed redundant. As for the "this ship" part, the Tantive IV was docked aboard the cruiser who received the transmission, so I think that's close enough - you're splitting hairs. Not to say you're wrong about it. You're definitely correct in that this is a small continuity error (Or Vader simply Misspoke in Episode IV). But it's inconsequential, in my opinion, and doesn't harm the film.

Sure, I'm willing to edit that. However, it doesn't invalidate the rest of my critique. 

 

A 'retcon' proposes an alternate interpretation. It isn't a contradiction. A retcon accounts for an inconsistency; it doesn't create one.

 

Darth Vader hunts down the Tantive IV mere minutes after it eludes him. I think he would remember that the plans were three feet in front of him and rugbied into the ship, rather than having them beamed to it. 

That Darth Vader scene would have been better-placed on the planet they were on. Rather than have her confront the forgettable imperial officer in white, why wasn't it Darth Vader attempting to stop the rebels from transmitting the plans? Alternatively, he could have mowed down the rebels in the entryway of another ship, and while still being an absolute badass, be unable to stop the escaping rebels from beaming the plans to the Tantive IV. If watched in chronological order, this would be extremely out-of-character for him. 

 

Hell, they could have had that imperial pilot commandeer another ship and have Darth Vader slaughter a ton of rebels to get to a TIE Fighter, and have him shoot down the rogue pilot, but just after he beams the transmissions to the Tantive IV. I can think of a million different ways this could have been written to ensure appropriate continuity.

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The pacing of the movie was really too fast in the beginning. They would change planets almost every 2 seconds and that made it hard to follow along. Later the movie fixes it though. For a while some of the characters were confusing on who they were, but by the end I knew. The whole CGI deal  Tarkin didn't really upset me, nor Leia. In fact I thought they just got an actor who looked just liked her, it was good enough to fool me. I really liked the gritty atmosphere. For the first time to me the Empire truly had this overbearing power that I loved. 

 

The highlight for me was the battle at the end, and K2SO. What a character, I loved him. I actually liked him more than BB-8 by far. He actually had character, not just the cute robot thing. My favorite line from him in the movie is when Jyn shoots the other droid that looks like him and he just says "Did you think that was me".

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Aereldor said:

Sure, I'm willing to edit that. However, it doesn't invalidate the rest of my critique. 

 

A 'retcon' proposes an alternate interpretation. It isn't a contradiction. A retcon accounts for an inconsistency; it doesn't create one.

 

Darth Vader hunts down the Tantive IV mere minutes after it eludes him. I think he would remember that the plans were three feet in front of him and rugbied into the ship, rather than having them beamed to it. 

That Darth Vader scene would have been better-placed on the planet they were on. Rather than have her confront the forgettable imperial officer in white, why wasn't it Darth Vader attempting to stop the rebels from transmitting the plans? Alternatively, he could have mowed down the rebels in the entryway of another ship, and while still being an absolute badass, be unable to stop the escaping rebels from beaming the plans to the Tantive IV. If watched in chronological order, this would be extremely out-of-character for him. 

 

Hell, they could have had that imperial pilot commandeer another ship and have Darth Vader slaughter a ton of rebels to get to a TIE Fighter, and have him shoot down the rogue pilot, but just after he beams the transmissions to the Tantive IV. I can think of a million different ways this could have been written to ensure appropriate continuity.

That is speculation. We have NO IDEA AT ALL how much time has passed between the ending scene in Rogue One and the beginning of A New Hope. It could have been 5 minutes. Or 5 hours. Or 5 weeks. Space is big, and the Tantive IV is a Corellian Corvette, which is a very common ship, on a galactic scale. That would be the equivalent to a cop seeing a blue Honda Civic running a red light, then 3 days later, seeing another blue Honda Civic. THEY MUST BE THE SAME CAR! ... or maybe not, since that's one of the most popular cars in North America.

 

We can guess that A New Hope starts mere minutes later. But it's a guess, and nothing more.

 

I will acknowledge that you have a point, and I see your reasoning. But I do not share that opinion. Sure, they could have written it better. But I don't feel that it ruins the movie, as-is.

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46 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

That is speculation. We have NO IDEA AT ALL how much time has passed between the ending scene in Rogue One and the beginning of A New Hope. It could have been 5 minutes. Or 5 hours. Or 5 weeks. Space is big, and the Tantive IV is a Corellian Corvette, which is a very common ship, on a galactic scale. That would be the equivalent to a cop seeing a blue Honda Civic running a red light, then 3 days later, seeing another blue Honda Civic. THEY MUST BE THE SAME CAR! ... or maybe not, since that's one of the most popular cars in North America.

 

We can guess that A New Hope starts mere minutes later. But it's a guess, and nothing more.

 

I will acknowledge that you have a point, and I see your reasoning. But I do not share that opinion. Sure, they could have written it better. But I don't feel that it ruins the movie, as-is.

It can't have been weeks owing to the fact that Leia's appearance at the end of the movie is identical to her appearance at the beginning of 'A New Hope', down to the very details of the outfit.

 

It's ridiculous to suggest that all they would have had to go on was the model of the ship; the identification of the ship would be easily retrievable from the ship it was docked to; from the very door itself. 

 

Leland Chee said that the films are mere hours apart, if that.

 

The following extract is from the novelization epilogue.

Quote

"Star Destroyer closing!" called the officer at the tactical console. Raymus didn't recognize the face — one of Raddus's men.

He erased the fear from his own expression. "Get us into hyperspace," he said.

Rogue One: A Star Wars Story - Official Novelization Epilogue

 

Complete presentation of evidence here-

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147586/how-much-time-passes-between-rogue-one-and-episode-iv

 

Maybe now you'll do more than acknowledge my point and see my reasoning.

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53 minutes ago, Aereldor said:

It can't have been weeks owing to the fact that Leia's appearance at the end of the movie is identical to her appearance at the beginning of 'A New Hope', down to the very details of the outfit.

 

It's ridiculous to suggest that all they would have had to go on was the model of the ship; the identification of the ship would be easily retrievable from the ship it was docked to; from the very door itself. 

 

Leland Chee said that the films are mere hours apart, if that.

 

The following extract is from the novelization epilogue.

 

Complete presentation of evidence here-

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147586/how-much-time-passes-between-rogue-one-and-episode-iv

 

Maybe now you'll do more than acknowledge my point and see my reasoning.

Interesting - good find with the tweet by Leland. With that in mind, Leland was in charge of the Legends EU Canon (The Holocron database). I wonder what authority he has with new Canon? I assume he's still employed at LucasFilm, so we can use him as a "until there's better info" source.

 

It's not ridiculous at all, about the identity of the ship. First: They knew they were going into a battle zone. They also knew that they were going to be receiving the plans via transmission. It's not unlikely at all that they intentionally disabled or scrambled the Transponder Code for the Tantive IV. It might show blank, or it might also show as a fake ID. That fake ID may well have been used internally on Raddus' command ship too (If the Transponder was already set, then the "docking" computer would see the fake ID, not the real one).

 

In addition to that, hours is still enough time for them to jump to hyperspace several times, have Vader catch up, and them still plausibly play innocent (Obviously not convincingly enough though). We don't know how long the Tantive IV was in the Tatooine system before Vader's command ship showed up. We can assume they were intentionally going there (To get Kenobi), so Vader might have needed time to calculate their hyperspace vector and track the ship. And it's not impossible for there to be other Corellian Corvette's in orbit of Tatooine at the same time, or on a frequent basis.

 

Finally, your last comment is unusual, and doesn't make sense. You can quite clearly see I've already acknowledged your point. What more is needed? It's a valid opinion. I still, personally, do not think it's really that big of a story issue though.

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27 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Interesting - good find with the tweet by Leland. With that in mind, Leland was in charge of the Legends EU Canon (The Holocron database). I wonder what authority he has with new Canon? I assume he's still employed at LucasFilm, so we can use him as a "until there's better info" source.

Indeed, but he's still employed at the 'Lucasfilm Story Group'. His LinkedIn profile description states that he ' manages the fictional continuity for the Star Wars universe across all mediums'. I do believe he's an authority on this, and it doesn't state anywhere that his role is limited to the Legends Canon. The Holocron Database's blogspot and Wookiepedia article doesn't seem to suggest that either.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/holocron

 

31 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

It's not ridiculous at all, about the identity of the ship. First: They knew they were going into a battle zone. They also knew that they were going to be receiving the plans via transmission. It's not unlikely at all that they intentionally disabled or scrambled the Transponder Code for the Tantive IV. It might show blank, or it might also show as a fake ID. That fake ID may well have been used internally on Raddus' command ship too (If the Transponder was already set, then the "docking" computer would see the fake ID, not the real one).

 

In addition to that, hours is still enough time for them to jump to hyperspace several times, have Vader catch up, and them still plausibly play innocent (Obviously not convincingly enough though). We don't know how long the Tantive IV was in the Tatooine system before Vader's command ship showed up. We can assume they were intentionally going there (To get Kenobi), so Vader might have needed time to calculate their hyperspace vector and track the ship. And it's not impossible for there to be other Corellian Corvette's in orbit of Tatooine at the same time, or on a frequent basis.

I still think it's more plausible that Vader was able to track down the Tantive IV far sooner. Considering how advanced the technology in the Star Wars universe is, it's entirely plausible that the differences between the Tantive IV and other CR90 Corvettes could have been scanned and used as a means of identification. Your analogy of having to hunt down every single Blue Honda Civic is a case of false equivalency. Furthermore, if Leia and the crew of the Tantive IV had the time to make several jumps to hyperspace to different star systems, then they would have had the time to transmit copies of the plans to other star systems. 

 

If you bothered to look at the link I provided, you'll notice just how close Scarif (the planet at the end of Rogue One) and Tattooine are. If Leia made several jumps to hyperspace, it's likely she'd be going out of her way. If she's going out of her way, why not copy and retransmit the plans, or jettison copies in escape pods to be embedded in another planet, moon, or asteroid? The purpose of her mission is to somehow get the plans to the Rebellion. She could have hidden a cache concealing a copy and beamed its coordinates to a Rebellion contact. It's far more plausible that Leia could only make one jump to hyperspace; to Tattooine. The Star Destroyer catches up with the Tantive IV as it nears Tattooine, and the escape pods were jettisoned as a last-ditch effort to stop the plans from falling into imperial hands.

 

41 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Finally, your last comment is unusual, and doesn't make sense. You can quite clearly see I've already acknowledged your point. What more is needed? It's a valid opinion. I still, personally, do not think it's really that big of a story issue though.

I meant that rather than acknowledging my point, presentation of detailed evidence may change your opinion.

 

Once more; the link.

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147586/how-much-time-passes-between-rogue-one-and-episode-iv

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Aereldor said:

Indeed, but he's still employed at the 'Lucasfilm Story Group'. His LinkedIn profile description states that he ' manages the fictional continuity for the Star Wars universe across all mediums'. I do believe he's an authority on this, and it doesn't state anywhere that his role is limited to the Legends Canon. The Holocron Database's blogspot and Wookiepedia article doesn't seem to suggest that either.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/holocron

 

I still think it's more plausible that Vader was able to track down the Tantive IV far sooner. Considering how advanced the technology in the Star Wars universe is, it's entirely plausible that the differences between the Tantive IV and other CR90 Corvettes could have been scanned and used as a means of identification. Your analogy of having to hunt down every single Blue Honda Civic is a case of false equivalency. Furthermore, if Leia and the crew of the Tantive IV had the time to make several jumps to hyperspace to different star systems, then they would have had the time to transmit copies of the plans to other star systems. 

 

If you bothered to look at the link I provided, you'll notice just how close Scarif (the planet at the end of Rogue One) and Tattooine are. If Leia made several jumps to hyperspace, it's likely she'd be going out of her way. If she's going out of her way, why not copy and retransmit the plans, or jettison copies in escape pods to be embedded in another planet, moon, or asteroid? The purpose of her mission is to somehow get the plans to the Rebellion. She could have hidden a cache concealing a copy and beamed its coordinates to a Rebellion contact. It's far more plausible that Leia could only make one jump to hyperspace; to Tattooine. The Star Destroyer catches up with the Tantive IV as it nears Tattooine, and the escape pods were jettisoned as a last-ditch effort to stop the plans from falling into imperial hands.

 

I meant that rather than acknowledging my point, presentation of detailed evidence may change your opinion.

 

Once more; the link.

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147586/how-much-time-passes-between-rogue-one-and-episode-iv

 

 

As stated earlier, you've made some fine points. You will not change my opinion, however (Which is: Yes there are some minor plot holes/issues with the film, but it was damn enjoyable, and I didn't have any problem with the ending and how they got the plans out).

 

Sure, could it have been better? Absolutely. But considering how late they did reshoots, and basically entirely re-wrote the entire last half of the movie (the original script had Jyn and possibly other characters surviving), I think it turned out damn good.

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27 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

As stated earlier, you've made some fine points. You will not change my opinion, however (Which is: Yes there are some minor plot holes/issues with the film, but it was damn enjoyable, and I didn't have any problem with the ending and how they got the plans out).

 

Sure, could it have been better? Absolutely. But considering how late they did reshoots, and basically entirely re-wrote the entire last half of the movie (the original script had Jyn and possibly other characters surviving), I think it turned out damn good.

I don't intend to change your opinion about the film as a whole I intend to argue that you're wrong about the Tantive IV's course following the end of the movie, and thus, the amount of time between this movie and the original Star Wars. 

 

You can like the movie if you want; I don't care about that. I do care about which arguments in this specific case are more plausible. 

 

Regarding the re-shoots; it seemed obvious that the Rogue One team would become the Knights of Ren. Maybe that theory received too much credence and they did most of it over to change the plot to keep it unpredictable.

 


The theory began circulating over a year before this was uploaded.

 

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