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Steam - Hardware Survey - under represents VR

I have never trusted steam hardware results.

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It matters that you don't just give up.”

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Just now, Mihle said:

I have never trusted steam hardware results.

I'm going to be a lot more circumspect now about it too!

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3 minutes ago, mark_cameron said:

I can see you're not interested in proper debate and are simply trolling.

Don't project yourself onto me: You are the one advocating for ignoring VR only games and lumping in popular VR capable but not VR exclusive titles to the success of VR. That's inherently flawed since it does not reflect VR adoption rates which is needed to ensure future hardware being produced and invested on. 

 

If you don't think better sales numbers are needed explain why VR can overcome all other new hardware products that preceeded it and why this new strategy is viable. 

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8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Again this is straight up presuppositional: you're assuming there will be a long run. Investors and hardware companies don't look at things this way for the same reason most people don't say "But if we keep investing in flying cars we will be the first and only company with one and potentially become the richest company in history!"

 

Flying cars are fucking impractical, needlessly dangerous and technology just isn't fucking viable yet so nobody is throwing money at flying car projects.

But they clearly do. Facebook in particular has invested heavily in this, knowing full well that their investment cannot possibly pay off during this first gen.

 

The assumption that there will be a long run is the correct one. Either VR will take off, or a similar medium like AR or mixed reality will, there can be no question about that. Flying cars are impractical, this is not. Flying cars are not worth it, this is.

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1 minute ago, mark_cameron said:

I'm going to be a lot more circumspect now about it too!

Like it can give an indication, especially about hardware in the PC, but USB connected things ? No, maybe a weak indication.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. 
It matters that you don't just give up.”

-Stephen Hawking

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15 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

But they clearly do. Facebook in particular has invested heavily in this, knowing full well that their investment cannot possibly pay off during this first gen.

 

The assumption that there will be a long run is the correct one. Either VR will take off, or a similar medium like AR or mixed reality will, there can be no question about that. Flying cars are impractical, this is not. Flying cars are not worth it, this is.

Funny you should bring up the owner of Oculus: Facebook has enough money to invest on Oculus but so far, either they haven't or it has been for nothing. So just because someone has the money doesn't means they will use the money: billionaires didn't became such by not taking risks but also became such by knowing when to pull out.

 

And by the way your "there can be no question about that" line it's basically meaningless assertion no more valid to me, an Atheist, than what a Theist would claim about god and how "there can be no question" about intelligent design and other such nonsense.

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VR isn't dead however it is merely in the early adopters/innovator stage (I think the latter given % numbers) and will be their for quite some time, thus it will not take off until it moves on to the early majority stage in its adoption.

 

Also it might not take off as people want (at least not in this form) due to it being a fairly jarring experience for many people and the high barrier to entry

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/631048-psu-tier-list-updated/ Tier Breakdown (My understanding)--1 Godly, 2 Great, 3 Good, 4 Average, 5 Meh, 6 Bad, 7 Awful

 

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Steam hardware survey under represents everything. Idk why some people are surprised by this.

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2 minutes ago, XenosTech said:

Steam hardware survey under represents everything. Idk why some people are surprised by this.

How could it? For something to be under represented something has to be over represented in turn, what you saying makes no sense.

 

VR being underrepresented for the technical reasons provided does makes sense, however don't pretend the hardware survey is useless cause it's not.

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At this point VR's success will depend solely on PSVR and mobile solution like daydream and gearVR, both HTC and facebook attempts are flat out failures at this point, which is sad cause the ones leading are uther shit in comparison.

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36 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Funny you should bring up the owner of Oculus: Facebook has enough money to invest on Oculus but so far, either they haven't or it has been for nothing. So just because someone has the money doesn't means they will use the money: billionaires didn't became such by not taking risks but also became such by knowing when to pull out.

 

And by the way your "there can be no question about that" line it's basically meaningless assertion no more valid to me, an Atheist, than what a Theist would claim about god and how "there can be no question" about intelligent design and other such nonsense.

What do you mean it's "been for nothing," the results are plainly obvious. Lots of games in the Oculus store were funded that way. They burned through $250 million quickly and are now well on the way to half a billion spent, just on content. Then there's all the R&D for the Rift devkits and consumer version, as well as Gear VR.

 

I'm an atheist too. I've never seen god, nor has anyone else outside a psych ward. But I've seen VR, and it's a big deal.

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3 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

I'm an atheist too. I've never seen god, nor has anyone else outside a psych ward. But I've seen VR, and it's a big deal.

It's just fucking not: you where impressed by it I have no doubts. But it's just not a big deal for most of the population.

 

Sorry but mildly popular products among a very specific and rich (in terms of spending in the hobby) niche like Tech Enthusiasts does not makes it a big deal.

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6 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

How could it? For something to be under represented something has to be over represented in turn, what you saying makes no sense.

 

VR being underrepresented for the technical reasons provided does makes sense, however don't pretend the hardware survey is useless cause it's not.

It isn't accurate either. You know how many people don't use steam at all ? And I wasn't meaning VR alone I meant the whole survey.

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5 minutes ago, XenosTech said:

It isn't accurate either. You know how many people don't use steam at all ? 

I would venture to say a very small percentage of early VR adopters don't use steam at all.

 

In terms of PC game sales overall Steam might not represent but that's just cause a lot of shitty free-to-play games and such don't get counted it. Now if those games would be relevant at all for hardware statistics I'd be interested. But most of the games that wouldn't figure it's users on steams run on 4 year old integrated graphics so it's fairly inconsequential (but not completely: I can partially concede that) to devs figuring out their target hardware horsepower needed.

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1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

I would venture to say a very small percentage of early VR adopters don't use steam at all.

 

In terms of PC game sales overall Steam might not represent but that's just cause a lot of shitty free-to-play games and such don't get counted it. Now if those games would be relevant at all for hardware statistics I'd be interested. But most of the games that wouldn't figure it's users on steams run on 4 year old integrated graphics so it's fairly inconsequential (but not completely: I can partially concede that) to devs figuring out their target hardware horsepower needed.

A game is a game regardless of if you pay for it or not... My friend has a 4970k and a 980 TI and he only plays free to play games (he found that system in a pawn shop for $750 USD which is $1500 in my currency) But I still don't use seam's hardware survey as the holy grail of surveys for statics.

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28 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

It's just fucking not: you where impressed by it I have no doubts. But it's just not a big deal for most of the population.

 

Sorry but mildly popular products among a very specific and rich (in terms of spending in the hobby) niche like Tech Enthusiasts does not makes it a big deal.

Cars, TV, computers - all things that were also not a big deal for most of the population early on. I'm not saying everyone should be out buying Rifts and Vives right now, but that VR is here to stay. We're just in the awkward early years of it. Like when mobile phones were super-expensive and looked like this:

 

Spoiler

CYvvYlm.jpg

 

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Vr isnt dying. People tend to forget how well the psvr is doing. Loads of my friends have it and theyre loving it. 

Wishing leads to ambition and ambition leads to motivation and motivation leads to me building an illegal rocket ship in my backyard.

 

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27 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Cars, TV, computers - all things that were also not a big deal for most of the population early on. I'm not saying everyone should be out buying Rifts and Vives right now, but that VR is here to stay. We're just in the awkward early years of it. Like when mobile phones were super-expensive and looked like this:

All of your examples had far more practical and productive users than VR, which has some but is mostly recreational and not a completely new paradigm like No moving images - Moving images like TV.

 

Sorry but hindsight it's always 20/20 you can't apply what you know historically about those technologies to VR. The difference is that while I'm critical of VR I am not asserting it will never find some sort of applications or good formula for mass adoption (just that is is very unlikely from current trends, but it's not the first time immersion or even VR is being tried sure it won't be the last) whereas you are asserting, based on nothing, that it absolutely will without accepting the possibility VR might fail and become just another forgotten fad.

 

Saying "there is no doubts, I am completely certain it's here to stay" it's just a non-nonsensical assertion based on probably cognitive dissonance. Nobody is fucking sure of anything beyond the shadow of a doubt in tech.

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Steam Hardware surveys are for the same kind of person who updated to Windows 10, and people who just don't give a damn.

 

I don't know why I said 'people who just don't give a damn' twice.

In case the moderators do not ban me as requested, this is a notice that I have left and am not coming back.

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30 minutes ago, That Norwegian Guy said:

Steam Hardware surveys are for the same kind of person who updated to Windows 10, and people who just don't give a damn.

 

I don't know why I said 'people who just don't give a damn' twice.

Yes, but Luke's 10 March 2016 - LTT youtube video clearly says that LMG knows for a fact that game developers are using these misleading stats in relation to games incorporation of or development for VR.

 

Its why it matters:

 

This faulty survey (for VR) has a potential to undermine VR uptake. If used for that purpose.

 

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The problem with vr is , it's a fad. Sooner or later, it's going to be stored in the back closet collecting dust. Only way to make it really successful, is to make it so there is a actual need for it, not just for gaming or entertainment.

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3 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

I'm gonna cut it there because you probably misinterpreted what I said: I know they're probably not showing on the Steam hardware survey. What I'm saying is where are the runaway success VR only games? The Wii had such titles that made tremendous bank, the iPhone nowadays still have them. Game consoles have em and normal PC games have em as well. What about VR? Where's a VR game that shows "Oh....VR headsets are not detected in the survey but look at this game moving 500,000 or 1,000,000 copies"?

 

See what you guys are doing is solving half the equation and assuming you've got the answer: "The hardware survey doesn't detects VR headsets henceforth VR is doing really well!!" No, it's not: it it was the case we could point at VR games that are doing really well but none get sales numbers worth nothing at this time. 

Best I can find it's 150k number that's a definite improvement but not enough to declare "VR is O.K. Linus got it wrong!"

I don't think anyone is saying that vr in total is moving in the hundreds of thousands. That would be a gross over-estimate.

A successful game also doesn't constitute just that kind of number of sales either. Take a look at something like Eve Valkyrie, which is sitting at around 56,000 copies just a bit before the christmas season, and is a strictly VR only title. You need a vr headset to play it. There's bound to be quite a few more now that the holidays are over, but by all accounts the game has been a success for ccp, and represents just one of their stepping stones along their 10yr path for VR.

 

VR with its price and requirements is naturally a very niche luxury. But its certainly doing far better at the moment than steam/valve would have people believe. 

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38 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

All of your examples had far more practical and productive users than VR, which has some but is mostly recreational and not a completely new paradigm like No moving images - Moving images like TV.

 

Sorry but hindsight it's always 20/20 you can't apply what you know historically about those technologies to VR. The difference is that while I'm critical of VR I am not asserting it will never find some sort of applications or good formula for mass adoption (just that is is very unlikely from current trends, but it's not the first time immersion or even VR is being tried sure it won't be the last) whereas you are asserting, based on nothing, that it absolutely will without accepting the possibility VR might fail and become just another forgotten fad.

 

Saying "there is no doubts, I am completely certain it's here to stay" it's just a non-nonsensical assertion based on probably cognitive dissonance. Nobody is fucking sure of anything beyond the shadow of a doubt in tech.

It is a new paradigm, and it does have practical and productive uses. Sculpt something in Oculus Medium and 3D print it.

 

Hindsight? This isn't about the past, it's about the future. And you're the one trying to dismiss it as a repeat of 3D TV, which is the type of hindsight you're complaining about yourself.

 

I am asserting that it's (most likely) going to succeed because it's amazing. But that's not just my assertion, it's reproducible.

 

You've also got a strawman fallacy going on there. I never said VR would definitely, without any doubt whatsoever, take off. I specifically pointed out that it's possible something else will edge it out, like AR or mixed reality of some kind.

5 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

The problem with vr is , it's a fad. Sooner or later, it's going to be stored in the back closet collecting dust. Only way to make it really successful, is to make it so there is a actual need for it, not just for gaming or entertainment.

It's not just a fad. And being only for gaming and entertainment doesn't mean something is a fad. Gaming and entertainment is a huge and permanent market.

 

Besides which, it isn't just for gaming and entertainment.

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13 minutes ago, Atmos said:

Take a look at something like Eve Valkyrie, which is sitting at around 56,000 copies just a bit before the christmas season, and is a strictly VR only title.

Where did you get that number from? Pretty sure it's sold a lot more than that.

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22 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Where did you get that number from? Pretty sure it's sold a lot more than that.

I would still never use a single title to make any judgements.

 

You would need a cross section of games. I've not used my Vive in any FPS only car racing at the moment.

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