Lenovo Announces Kaby Lake/Optane Laptops

[Dackzy]

3 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Apparently some people do. Look at Lenovo's existing high end line of ThinkPads, they're designed as increadibly thin "ultra portable" business class machines.

 

Additionally the thinness isn't just about weight, it's about portability. It's easier to toss a 13" super thin Ultrabook in a briefcase to carry around with you for business use than it is to toss a 15" thick desktop replacement around everywhere you go.

 

I don't know why everyone's focussed on the weight, if I were using a laptop for work I'd be much more concerned about the thickness and other dimensions when I'm lugging it around than I would be about the weight.

the X series is what you should go for if you want ultra thin, not the T series.

thinnes harms the cooling and when the cooling gets worse then performance gets worse and the lifespan becomes shorter.

 

You seem to be one of those form over function guys, I really really hate those guys, they fuck everyone else over. How? Because the manufactories sees that they can make a thin laptop that can cool jack shit and still sell well, then they will start doing that more and more, because it is cheaper for them.

 

I have never talked about screen size, I have talked about Lenovo stopping this BS with making their laptops even thinner than they already are.

 

Let look at the old T420s it is about 2.5cm thick(with rubber feet) it can cool a 35w CPU and a 30w Fermi GPU and it only weighs 1.8kg or so and you can put a 45w CPU in it and still be mostly fine, it has a 14" screen (IMO the sweet spot) and you can hot swap batteries.

 

Now let's look at the T460s, it has a ULV CPU that Lenovo has unlocked to 25w meaning the turbo boost will actually be a thing for longer periods, it has no hot swap battery option, it is 1.88cm high and has a starting weight of 1.4kg

 

If you want to update the T420s to todays hardware then you basically end up with a T460p, which would wreck a T460s. While still being very very portable, 1.8kg is so light and it isn't like 2.5cm vs 1.88cm is going to make a huge difference in your backpack.

The T series used to be more like a small W series, now because of this idiotic thinnes race, then the T series is closer to a X series laptop.

 

thinnes is very much only downsides, less IO, worse cooling, often worse upgrade path (ram, hard drive) and worse performance. These are not things that are very welcome in the business world.

[Sniperfox47]

14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What makes a 13" laptop that's 13mm thick so much better than a 13" laptop that's 25mm thick. Everything about both laptops is exactly the same bar that, you could make the 25mm laptop better since it has room for more I/O ports and more variety of them which is the issue with thin laptops. All downsides and no up sides at all.

Because when I have a bag stuffed to overflowing with documents and other stuff it's twice as hard to fit the 25mm thick one in my bag than it is to fit the 13mm thick one?

 

I've found myself carrying my Pixel C's kayboard by hand before because just the 5mm of extra thickness from that wouldn't fit.

 

4 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

the X series is what you should go for if you want ultra thin, not the T series.

thinnes harms the cooling and when the cooling gets worse then performance gets worse and the lifespan becomes shorter.

 

You seem to be one of those form over function guys, I really really hate those guys, they fuck everyone else over. How? Because the manufactories sees that they can make a thin laptop that can cool jack shit and still sell well, then they will start doing that more and more, because it is cheaper for them.

...the article never said it's for their T series... It just says ThinkPads... The X Series are ThinkPad X... >.>

 

I'm very much a functionality guy. I want a system that does what I need it to. If I need to do 3D rendering give me a workhorse. Give me something that can plow through that task with good cooling. (ThinkPad P)

 

If I need a system that can serve as a desktop replacement on the go? Sure give me something that has all the io I need, preferably with a business class dock. (ThinkPad T)

 

Need to cover a workfloor in laptops that will be running 24/7 but idle a lot, and which I'm worried about Power costs? Get energy efficient low power machines (ThinkPad L)

 

But if I need a portable system that looks nice so I can run vpro dependant endpoint presentation software for clients and take it around with me everywhere? Yeah give me something thin and sleek so it fits in my carrying bag better and looks nicer for clients. (ThinkPad X/Yoga)

 

Business class laptops don't fall into just one of the catagories above. Sometimes a scalpel works better than an axe.

[Dackzy]

39 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Because when I have a bag stuffed to overflowing with documents and other stuff it's twice as hard to fit the 25mm thick one in my bag than it is to fit the 13mm thick one?

 

I've found myself carrying my Pixel C's kayboard by hand before because just the 5mm of extra thickness from that wouldn't fit.

 

...the article never said it's for their T series... It just says ThinkPads... The X Series are ThinkPad X... >.>

 

I'm very much a functionality guy. I want a system that does what I need it to. If I need to do 3D rendering give me a workhorse. Give me something that can plow through that task with good cooling. (ThinkPad P)

 

If I need a system that can serve as a desktop replacement on the go? Sure give me something that has all the io I need, preferably with a business class dock. (ThinkPad T)

 

Need to cover a workfloor in laptops that will be running 24/7 but idle a lot, and which I'm worried about Power costs? Get energy efficient low power machines (ThinkPad L)

 

But if I need a portable system that looks nice so I can run vpro dependant endpoint presentation software for clients and take it around with me everywhere? Yeah give me something thin and sleek so it fits in my carrying bag better and looks nicer for clients. (ThinkPad X/Yoga)

 

Business class laptops don't fall into just one of the catagories above. Sometimes a scalpel works better than an axe.

actually that was just to give you an exsample of what happens when you start making things thinner. Also if you want a laptop that can last a long time on battery then get a X2x0. God damn those fuckers can last you a whole day with no problem, one of my friends has the X260 he got the battery life to last 24 hours while he was writing in a word doc and had a couple of taps open.

Sadly the T series isn't much of a work horse anymore, only the T4x0p has the power now....

 

Also lastly, if you look at a lot of the ThinkPad news then a lot of them has been about the T series (maybe because it is the classic thinkpad or because it is the top end series)

[Sniperfox47]

1 minute ago, Dackzy said:

because it is the top end series

Sorry just want to offer a correction here. It hasn't been the top end series in quite a while. It's now the midrange mobile series and the ThinkPad P series was spun off to be the high end performance machines.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

If I need a system that can serve as a desktop replacement on the go? Sure give me something that has all the io I need, preferably with a business class dock. (ThinkPad T)

Problem is laptops like the T series are no longer this due to all the thinness craze, I/O ports are being dropped and CPUs are being dropped down a performance tier. I've always loved the T series because of what it was not what it is becoming. The T series is still fine they haven't done anything truly stupid yet but there is a high chance they will.

 

As for the bag issue, can't really say too much about that since I'm not in your situation. I could say either use a slightly larger bag or not carry all the documents in physical form but both my not be possible.

 

Giving users what they want is important but being able to properly support the device is just as important. By removing ethernet ports, DVD drives, weakening the laptop (physically) this increases the cost of the device and causes support issues meaning it could now take longer to fix than previously.

 

 

Laptop loses domain trust, has no wireless access anymore, laptop has no ethernet port, user left adapter at home, support time increase 40 minutes.

 

User drops T420, minor damage continues to function, managed down time with temporary device. User drops 'thin laptop', utterly broken no longer functional, un-managed down time temporary device not ready.

 

MacBook Pro user enters venue with professional large venue projector, only takes VGA, TB-VGA adapter doesn't work correctly, scramble for different laptop.

[Dackzy]

2 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Sorry just want to offer a correction here. It hasn't been the top end series in quite a while. It's now the midrange mobile series and the ThinkPad P series was spun off to be the high end performance machines.

when I say top end, I mean in build quality, not performance. Their workstation series have become a lot better there, so now in build quality I would say T and P are pretty much the same.

 

Their series pretty much go

T and P are the highest end ones

X series not as well build as the T or P, but thinner and lighter

L and yoga series are worse than X (the loweset I would ever go)

E series entry level

13 and 11e better than your normal Ultrabook, but not really a real ThinkPad

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 The T series is still fine they haven't done anything truly stupid yet but there is a high chance they will.

No TB3 on the T470p, but the T470s has TB3, so they fucked up. I wanted to get a T470p, because it is the only real upgrade in the T series when coming from a T420s, but the lack of TB3 makes it a bit hard for me, expeically since the other models in the T series gets TB3. 

I don't really need TB3, but it would be a neat thing to have in the future.

[Sniperfox47]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Problem is laptops like the T series are no longer this due to all the thinness craze, I/O ports are being dropped and CPUs are being dropped down a performance tier. I've always loved the T series because of what it was not what it is becoming. The T series is still fine they haven't done anything truly stupid yet but there is a high chance they will.

 

As for the bag issue, can't really say too much about that since I'm not in your situation. I could say either use a slightly larger bag or not carry all the documents in physical form but both my not be possible.

 

Giving users what they want is important but being able to properly support the device is just as important. By removing ethernet ports, DVD drives, weakening the laptop (physically) this increases the cost of the device and causes support issues meaning it could now take longer to fix than previously.

 

 

Laptop loses domain trust, has no wireless access anymore, laptop has no ethernet port, user left adapter at home, support time increase 40 minutes.

 

User drops T420, minor damage continues to function, managed down time with temporary device. User drops 'thin laptop', utterly broken no longer functional, un-managed down time temporary device not ready.

 

MacBook Pro user enters venue with professional large venue projector, only takes VGA, TB-VGA adapter doesn't work correctly, scramble for different laptop.

I don't disagree with any of this but again it's a matter of the right tool for the job.

 

For example, in a large scale enterprise deployment, you probably don't want a ThinkPad X Carbon. Why? Because as you pointed out, the issues with lack of io and the risk of damage if dropped. ThinkPad T, or even L, lines would likely be better. ThinkPad P if you need parralel compute.

 

In a small deployment of real estate agents who will be taking the computers out to client's homes to do presentations on, and those computers require Intel TXT to secure them? ThinkPad X Carbon is probably a good option. It has all the required firmware features as part of vPro, is small and portable, and looks good with its carbon fiber finish to present your agents with a professional look.

 

And I'd argue that unless you're doing audio stuff a MacBook is very rarely the best tool for the job xP

[LAwLz]

On 12/30/2016 at 5:29 AM, patrickjp93 said:

I'll ask our system architect who makes them, but he oversaw the original 1000Mbps network upgrade. And that was his explanation.

How did it go?

[Prysin]

On 30/12/2016 at 0:22 PM, patrickjp93 said:

No, fiber is way more durable than copper.

 

The rest of your post I agree with.

i do not know what you have been smoking. But ive worked with Fibre and copper for years. On a weekly or monthly basis. Fibre cannot take shit outside of tensile loads. Any other form of strain will break it.

[patrickjp93]

5 minutes ago, Prysin said:

i do not know what you have been smoking. But ive worked with Fibre and copper for years. On a weekly or monthly basis. Fibre cannot take shit outside of tensile loads. Any other form of strain will break it.

Funny because all the videos I provided earlier in this thread showing how it can be bent clean in half and suffer no problems at all disagree with you. Buy better fibre, from Corning.

 

 

 

There have also been demos on the floor of CES showing TV signal taking no hit in this either. In fact I'm pretty sure Linus has one.

[Prysin]

25 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Funny because all the videos I provided earlier in this thread showing how it can be bent clean in half and suffer no problems at all disagree with you. Buy better fibre, from Corning.

 

 

 

There have also been demos on the floor of CES showing TV signal taking no hit in this either. In fact I'm pretty sure Linus has one.

sure, it CAN transmitt signals. It just wont pass our FLUKE fibre tester. And as such, the customer doesnt want it, as it is not certified.

 

I dont work with "maybe its fine". WE CERTIFY OUR WORK. If its not certified by the tester, it isn't good enough. Period.

[patrickjp93]

1 minute ago, Prysin said:

sure, it CAN transmitt signals. It just wont pass our FLUKE fibre tester. And as such, the customer doesnt want it, as it is not certified.

 

I dont work with "maybe its fine". WE CERTIFY OUR WORK. If its not certified by the tester, it isn't good enough. Period.

Yes it will. That's Corning's actual guarantee.

[Prysin]

4 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Yes it will. That's Corning's actual guarantee.

Corning can guarantee all they want. If the fibre we use doesnt pass the FLUKE tester, it doesnt pass.

 

Now, i do not know who we order fibre from, or rather who's fibre is inside (manufacturers often buy the fibre from supplier A but applies custom insulation or reinforcement.

 

 (i dont know which FLUKE tester model we have, specifically. I am not certified to use it, we have a specialist in the company for this)

 

You can fanboy over solutions all you want, but the reality is; If product A does not pass the tester. Then it doesn't pass. It does not matter what the manufacturer says. This is why we have testers. To make sure what the manufacturer claims holds true. If it doesnt pass. it doesnt pass. There is no argument here.

[patrickjp93]

2 minutes ago, Prysin said:

Corning can guarantee all they want. If the fibre we use doesnt pass the FLUKE tester, it doesnt pass.

 

Now, i do not know who we order fibre from, or rather who's fibre is inside (manufacturers often buy the fibre from supplier A but applies custom insulation or reinforcement.

 

 (i dont know which FLUKE tester model we have, specifically. I am not certified to use it, we have a specialist in the company for this)

 

You can fanboy over solutions all you want, but the reality is; If product A does not pass the tester. Then it doesn't pass. It does not matter what the manufacturer says. This is why we have testers. To make sure what the manufacturer claims holds true. If it doesnt pass. it doesnt pass. There is no argument here.

And that's fine, but you should switch your supplier to Corning and save the hassle. There's a reason it's one of only two makers left in the U.S.. It has beaten competition from every corner of the world.

[Prysin]

4 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

And that's fine, but you should switch your supplier to Corning and save the hassle. There's a reason it's one of only two makers left in the U.S.. It has beaten competition from every corner of the world.

as we both know, the main reason they are around is as usual with US businesses. A (un?)healthy mix of patent trolling and innovation. Without both such actions, you aint making it in the US anymore. Innovation alone only worked in the 1800s. Not anymore.

[patrickjp93]

1 minute ago, Prysin said:

as we both know, the main reason they are around is as usual with US businesses. A (un?)healthy mix of patent trolling and innovation. Without both such actions, you aint making it in the US anymore. Innovation alone only worked in the 1800s. Not anymore.

Nope. Corning has even made a number of patents open. It's just better than the competition.

[hogfather]

fantastic to see a Kiwi going at it with an Aussie  Keep at it boys!

[Sauron]

Well, why pair it with a hard disk? At least make the "normal" drive a sata ssd.

[patrickjp93]

19 minutes ago, hogfather said:

fantastic to see a Kiwi going at it with an Aussie  Keep at it boys!

I'm from the U.S. actually. I just took my first job out of university in Brisbane because it was a unique opportunity.

[Prysin]

2 hours ago, patrickjp93 said:

Nope. Corning has even made a number of patents open. It's just better than the competition.

Ofcourse they have. Because said patents no longer is critical for their latest products. Tesla did the same thing with their production tools and battery tech, once Panasonic had finalized the new gen batteries used in their P100 and P95D models.