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Microsoft’s marketing chief admits Windows 10 upgrade was pushed too aggressively

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5 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

I Personally am OK so fuck the millions upon millions with issues. Every. Fucking. Thread some comes up with this stupid anecdotal evidence argument. It's crap, it just makes you look selfish and it's meaningless to the conversation. 

And those of us who suffered no issues could say the same thing about those who had issues.

 

The fact the minority are more vocal than the majority in no way invalidates the experience of the majority.


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1 hour ago, patrickjp93 said:

Clearly not, because WINE exists for Linux, and yet the conversion's still not happening despite Linux Lite and Mint. And I know you don't think OS X is better.

Wine has a loooooooot of problems, it doesn't fix the compatibility barrier.

 

As a matter of fact I do think mac os is better when it comes to the system itself. I don't think it's worth buying a mac but I do see its advantages. If it weren't so picky about the hardware it runs on I may be using it at least on my laptop (which currently runs arch linux and which I don't care about play games on).


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Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

 

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

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A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

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From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

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A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

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Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

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Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

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A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

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1 hour ago, patrickjp93 said:

Clearly not, because WINE exists for Linux, and yet the conversion's still not happening despite Linux Lite and Mint. And I know you don't think OS X is better.

One very important factor and the very reason why Adobe won't ever convert anything to any *nix OS and I'm sure why other big software companies choose not to port to Linux either.

 

GPL

 

Linux users have a very negative attitude towards closed source software running on their machines. Steam is the only app I can think of that most Linux users are OK with despite it being closed source (Ignoring proprietary drivers that is) and still I've heard of Linux enthusiasts who refuse to run it.

 

I strongly doubt any developer would want the code for their proprietary software in the public domain allowing the competition to see how it works.

 

Linux's openness is its biggest blessing and biggest curse all rolled up into one package and is the reason why lots of the big software developers avoid it.


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1 hour ago, VerticalDiscussions said:

I mean, despite the constant thread basis discussing how annoying it was and also some reports of computer bricking, was it really that BAD!?

 

I personally did not suffer any annoyance from the Windows update system :p.

I think the computers getting bricked was a very small minority, but it seems like the vast majority have had at least a few minor issues with Windows 10.

Here is my guess (using a very limited sample so please don't take this as facts) of how many people have had issues:

 

At least a few minor issues - 100% of Windows 10 users. By minor issues I mean things like settings getting reset after updates, or other minor annoyances which can be fixed fairly easily. A lot of the more "forgiving" Windows users would not even call these issues (because they want to brush and wrongdoings from Microsoft under the rug).

 

Moderate issue - 25%. By moderate I mean for example a program has stopped working or gotten uninstalled, but the average user could probably get it working again with some help. Another example would be the recent update which caused the DHCP process to stop working, and people without static IPs found themselves without any network access until they manually sent a new DHCP request.

 

Major issue - 10%. By major issue I mean something which makes the computer not function as it should, and while a technically savvy person might fix it, the average Joe would have to hand the computer in. Examples of this would be the fairly common glitch that the start menu stops working, and you have to reinstall some components though PowerShell, or do a complete reinstall of Windows to fix it. Another example would be how Microsoft started blocking a bunch of webcams.

 

"This should never happen"-tier issue - <1%. An issue like files being deleted, the PC getting bricked and so on.

 

 

But when you take into consideration that hundreds of millions of people use Windows 10, even 1% becomes a huge number of people.

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

One very important factor and the very reason why Adobe won't ever convert anything to any *nix OS and I'm sure why other big software companies choose not to port to Linux either.

Adobe products runs on OS X, which is *nix.

 

I don't think it is the GPL that is the issue. It's the tiny userbase. It's not worth spending time and effort not only developing the program, but also offer support for it (which requires extra training for your employees).

Besides, I think most GNU/Linux users are OK with proprietary code on their machines. Not just drivers but also programs like Chrome (not Chromium), proprietary codecs and so on.

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1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

And those of us who suffered no issues could say the same thing about those who had issues.

People who have issues often seek support so the incident rate of the issue is well documented: we don't need a stupid "it sucks for me" argument.

 

Failure rates are to be expected on any product but the larger your consumer base the more important it is to be kept to a minimum: I've shown how even just 1% of users experiencing an issue translates into millions of machines. So a 2 or 3% failure rate for a product as big as Microsoft latest OS is completely unacceptable whereas failure rates on enthusiast hardware products can reach closer to 10% and still be considered relatively solid if the company is willing to back it up with RMAs people usually roll with it.

 

However none of that is what's going on: what happens here is that Microsoft knows that it releases an inferior product with untested updates you can't turn off and people like you want to apologize for them saying it's not important because they experience no issues.

 

Basically you're just showing up at a funeral to tell the families "I don't know why you're making such a big deal out of it, my cousin was on the same bus crash and he's just fine, not even injured. Just get over it already"

 

We're glad yours works, we're not coming to you to say you shouldn't enjoy your experience cause we're having issues over here so just stay out of it if you think everything's fine.

 

 


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48 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I don't think it is the GPL that is the issue. It's the tiny userbase. It's not worth spending time and effort not only developing the program, but also offer support for it (which requires extra training for your employees).

Besides, I think most GNU/Linux users are OK with proprietary code on their machines. Not just drivers but also programs like Chrome (not Chromium), proprietary codecs and so on.

Some people forget that much of Linux's share is in business, on servers and in some workstations.  In the home it's more than a rounding error, but not by much.

 

With that said, while there are plenty of Linux users who are fine with proprietary code, there is a disproportionately high number of FOSS zealots that don't exactly help the case.  It's hard to sell a major productivity app or a video card to a wannabe Richard Stallman who insists that you reveal all your trade secrets.

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8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Both GNU/Linux and OS X are superior to Windows in many (but not all) regards.

The problem is that Microsoft has used several illegal tactics to create and maintain a monopoly which ensures that changing from Windows to another OS is very difficult for people. WINE is far from perfect and is not the silver bullet that solves all compatibility issues. Not to mention all the patents Microsoft owns (and uses) to hinder (or force them to pay) competitors from developing a wide variety of features.

 

Most people just use whatever comes with their PC, and people don't like changing platform. Because of the illegal tactics I mentioned earlier, Microsoft has ensured that the OS that comes with peoples' computers is Windows.

 

 

If you want an analogy, Microsoft was a mad scientist who created a new, deadly kind of virus, and then went door to door deliberately infecting people with this disease. Now, they are the only ones who has the cure and you're saying they deserve the money because "well they are the only ones who has the cure so of course they deserve the money they charge for the treatment". A bit of an extreme example but I think you get the point.

Please feel free to point out and codify these tactics in detail and provide source material to prove they're actually complicit in such things.

 

7 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

I Personally am OK so fuck the millions upon millions with issues. Every. Fucking. Thread some comes up with this stupid anecdotal evidence argument. It's crap, it just makes you look selfish and it's meaningless to the conversation. 

And your whining is equally selfish and anecdotal. There's no objective study on who actually had migration problems. No one I know did, so that's roughly 50 samples.

 

7 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

One very important factor and the very reason why Adobe won't ever convert anything to any *nix OS and I'm sure why other big software companies choose not to port to Linux either.

 

GPL

 

Linux users have a very negative attitude towards closed source software running on their machines. Steam is the only app I can think of that most Linux users are OK with despite it being closed source (Ignoring proprietary drivers that is) and still I've heard of Linux enthusiasts who refuse to run it.

 

I strongly doubt any developer would want the code for their proprietary software in the public domain allowing the competition to see how it works.

 

Linux's openness is its biggest blessing and biggest curse all rolled up into one package and is the reason why lots of the big software developers avoid it.

There is a difference between user and zealot. I don't give a rat's ass if the program is closed-source. Many people don't.


Software Engineer for Suncorp (Australia), Computer Tech Enthusiast, Miami University Graduate, Nerd

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On 12/26/2016 at 5:19 AM, imPixelTV said:

windows 10 crashed like fuck in the ~10 months i had it. it was slow, unstable and unpolished. they shouldnt have shipped it in july 2015. i'd probably use it now if they had perfected it more. it just seemed rushed like vista. i'm staying on 7 unless my new pc doesnt work on 7.

Windows 10 has been fucking hell on my FX-4100. Honestly, I'm about to say "fuck it" and deal with throwing Windows 8.1 on this piece of shit.


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1 minute ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

Windows 10 has been fucking hell on my FX-4100. Honestly, I'm about to say "fuck it" and deal with throwing Windows 8.1 on this piece of shit.

use 7


bregsit

 

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Just now, imPixelTV said:

use 7

I might if I don't feel like putting the effort into throwing 8.1 on here, since I have a Windows 7 OEM disk and other materials :^)


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1 minute ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

I might if I don't feel like putting the effort into throwing 8.1 on here, since I have a Windows 7 OEM disk and other materials :^)

everyhting in my house runs 7 lol. easy to manage


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26 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Please feel free to point out and codify these tactics in detail and provide source material to prove they're actually complicit in such things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation

 

Microsoft has been found guilty of harming competitors several times. In the 1998 anti-trust case (United States v. Microsoft Corp) the court even ordered Microsoft to split into two companies, one for their OS and one for all other software, but after appealing that was taken out of the sentence.

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2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation

 

Microsoft has been found guilty of harming competitors several times. In the 1998 anti-trust case (United States v. Microsoft Corp) the court even ordered Microsoft to split into two companies, one for their OS and one for all other software, but after appealing that was taken out of the sentence.

Over the Netscape BS, even though integrating services and providing them as a package isn't anticompetitive at all... Care to come up with something substantial?


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It just pisses me off/saddens me to see such a massive company capable of doing so much success just turn the tables to go in a negative direction. Imagine if they just stayed the course with being productive more and making constant improvements on what they already have instead of giving us all of this unnecessary garbage. 

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Windows 10 upgrade was a mess. It was done way too aggressively and it did not fucking work! Once upgraded windows was its usual buggy mess at the start and the upgrade was not a clean upgrade.

 

10 hours ago, IAmLamp said:

It just pisses me off/saddens me to see such a massive company capable of doing so much success just turn the tables to go in a negative direction. Imagine if they just stayed the course with being productive more and making constant improvements on what they already have instead of giving us all of this unnecessary garbage. 

Your right microsoftwhere in the right direction.

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7 hours ago, patrickjp93 said:

Over the Netscape BS, even though integrating services and providing them as a package isn't anticompetitive at all... Care to come up with something substantial?

Yes it is anti competitive. For fuck sake Microsoft was found guilty and they blackmailed PC makers that if they installed their competitors software they would no longer be allowed to sell windows. 

I know you're dense but for crying out loud, when the court found them guilty you can't just say "that wasn't anti competitive". A court ruled that it was and your own opinion doesn't matter. 

 

 

Here is more. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

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Just now, LAwLz said:

Yes it is anti competitive. For fuck sake Microsoft was found guilty and they blackmailed PC makers that if they installed their competitors software they would no longer be allowed to sell windows. 

I know you're dense but for crying out loud, when the court found them guilty you can't just say "that wasn't anti competitive". A court ruled that it was and your own opinion doesn't matter. 

 

 

Here is more. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

How is it anticompetitive. Providing people a better experience is anticompetitive? It's the definition of competition.

 

Microsoft was never proven to have threatened anyone.

 

the court's opinion was underinformed.


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51 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

How is it anticompetitive.

Court of law decided it was so.

 

Court of law > Patrick's MS cheerleading. That's the social contract and one most of us are happy with if the alternative is listening to you.


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On 12/26/2016 at 7:50 PM, patrickjp93 said:

If you're in the right climate, yes. Clothing has a practical use beyond modesty in most parts of the world, but there are many tropical tribes which don't use it.

Privacy has actual benefits as well.

Invasion+of+Privacy.pdf


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34 minutes ago, N3v3r3nding_N3wb said:

Privacy has actual benefits as well.

Invasion+of+Privacy.pdf

A charismatic analysis with very limited scope but no context. Your source is nearly worthless.


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2 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Court of law decided it was so.

 

Court of law > Patrick's MS cheerleading. That's the social contract and one most of us are happy with if the alternative is listening to you.

Prove it is so. Prove that objectively I am wrong. Providing better services than everyone else is the essence of competition.


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1 hour ago, patrickjp93 said:

Prove it is so. Prove that objectively I am wrong. Providing better services than everyone else is the essence of competition.

The point of antitrust laws is that you are not competing by providing a better product, but by hindering someone else's by simply being just too big to have real competition. 

 

This is a case in which I really don't have to prove shit to you patrick: We as a society have agreed upon and established antitrust laws. In several societies. If you don't like it you need to go create your own anarcho-capitalist revolution and change everybody's mind. We are the law, you're against a law henceforth you need to find a way to change said law by whatever means you consider adequate.

 

Considering that you hardly have any success in changing anybody's mind on an internet forum I suggest you leave politics to people that hold equally insane viewpoints but that know how to dog whistle a lot better than you and henceforth actually gather popular support like Stefan Molyneux.


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It's pretty obvious that Microsoft has done things that aren't simply about offering a better product, but actively discouraging competition.  For example, making it unnecessarily difficult to change app defaults, or charging OEMs for Windows licenses even on PCs running Linux.  I don't think bundling IE with Windows was wrong; making it hard to use Netscape Navigator, or punishing vendors for selling non-Windows PCs?  That definitely was.

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