Jump to content

Kaby Lake Overclocking Revealed: Simultaneously impressive AND disappointing

MageTank
1 minute ago, Dackzy said:

Never trusted Asrock, they have always failed my friends, so I have never owned a Asrock, only Asus. Mainly because I go after "high end" motherboards and Asus always seem to make the best motherboards for OCing.

That would fall under subjective I would suppose. I've owned 4 Z97 ASrock boards and 2 Z170 ASRock boards, all of which work perfectly fine. As for "best motherboards for overclocking" that again, depends on who you ask, and the benchmark in question. ASrock wins in the memory overclocking department, hands down. As for CPU overclocking, they all pretty much land around the same. Trace topology goes a very long way with memory overclocking, and the Z170m OCF just cannot be topped in that regard. 

 

I have pretty much owned boards from every manufacturer. The only problems I had, were with extremely cheap AMD MSI and Foxconn boards. ASUS, while they make great products, has a notoriously bad customer support team. I have no idea if it has improved recently, but I know for a fact I would not touch them after my experience a few years back. RIP M5A97 R2.0. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Never trusted Asrock, they have always failed my friends, so I have never owned a Asrock, only Asus. Mainly because I go after "high end" motherboards and Asus always seem to make the best motherboards for OCing.

Their high end boards are whole different animal, their OC Formula line has always been exquisite for overclocking, they continue to and have always had basically the best memory overclocking boards for every generation, no other Z170 boards can do the frequencies and timings that the Z170M OC Formula can do, 4200+ mhz 12-12-12 1T is do-able if your RAM is up to it.  The impact can get real close, as can the MSI itx board, but the Z170m for raw frequency and timings just can't be beaten.

 

For instance my kit maxes out around at  4105 mhz 12-11-11-28 1T with very tight secondary / third timings:

 

ooHIB.png

Stuff:  i7 7700k @ (dat nibba succ) | ASRock Z170M OC Formula | G.Skill TridentZ 3600 c16 | EKWB 1080 @ 2100 mhz  |  Acer X34 Predator | R4 | EVGA 1000 P2 | 1080mm Radiator Custom Loop | HD800 + Audio-GD NFB-11 | 850 Evo 1TB | 840 Pro 256GB | 3TB WD Blue | 2TB Barracuda

Hwbot: http://hwbot.org/user/lays/ 

FireStrike 980 ti @ 1800 Mhz http://hwbot.org/submission/3183338 http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/11574089

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, MageTank said:

That would fall under subjective I would suppose. I've owned 4 Z97 ASrock boards and 2 Z170 ASRock boards, all of which work perfectly fine. As for "best motherboards for overclocking" that again, depends on who you ask, and the benchmark in question. ASrock wins in the memory overclocking department, hands down. As for CPU overclocking, they all pretty much land around the same. Trace topology goes a very long way with memory overclocking, and the Z170m OCF just cannot be topped in that regard. 

 

I have pretty much owned boards from every manufacturer. The only problems I had, were with extremely cheap AMD MSI and Foxconn boards. ASUS, while they make great products, has a notoriously bad customer support team. I have no idea if it has improved recently, but I know for a fact I would not touch them after my experience a few years back. RIP M5A97 R2.0. 

Yeah Asus support is super bad, but they also give 5 year warranty on their higher end products, I have not seen that many boards with 5 year warranty and with my bad luck, 5 years is super nice. Well with X99 they have that feature so it uses turbo boost 3.0 on all the cores. That can be neat, but also be a problem if one core cannot handle it.

Asus always seem to have nice power delivery. I am not really into OCing my ram, I just buy fast ram with good timings, but I will try and OC and get my timings better with my next build.

Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lays said:

Their high end boards are a whole nother animal, their OC Formula line has always been exquisite for overclocking, they continue to and have always had basically the best memory overclocking boards for every generation, no other Z170 boards can do the frequencies and timings that the Z170M OC Formula can do, 4200+ mhz 12-12-12 1T is do-able if your RAM is up to it.

 

For instance my kit maxes out around at  4105 mhz 12-11-11-28 1T with very tight secondary / third timings:

 

 

Pretty sure you are the only man on this forum that downright puts my memory to shame, lol. 

 

1WklhMX.png

No matter what, these 16GB sticks refuse to go any higher, lol. Am pretty sure it's not the board either. What is your 24/7 memory speed BTW? Don't know if I've asked you that or not. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, MageTank said:

Pretty sure you are the only man on this forum that downright puts my memory to shame, lol. 

 

1WklhMX.png

No matter what, these 16GB sticks refuse to go any higher, lol. Am pretty sure it's not the board either. What is your 24/7 memory speed BTW? Don't know if I've asked you that or not. 

 

I finally figured out how to get my kit to do 4000 + at 49/50 RTL, took me ages to figure out how lol

 

I was running 3733 16-17-17-36 1T or something like that but I reset it when I put my system back into a case, I need to sell my dam test bench now cos I'm poor :(

Stuff:  i7 7700k @ (dat nibba succ) | ASRock Z170M OC Formula | G.Skill TridentZ 3600 c16 | EKWB 1080 @ 2100 mhz  |  Acer X34 Predator | R4 | EVGA 1000 P2 | 1080mm Radiator Custom Loop | HD800 + Audio-GD NFB-11 | 850 Evo 1TB | 840 Pro 256GB | 3TB WD Blue | 2TB Barracuda

Hwbot: http://hwbot.org/user/lays/ 

FireStrike 980 ti @ 1800 Mhz http://hwbot.org/submission/3183338 http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/11574089

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Lays said:

SNIP

damn that is nice

Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lays said:

 

I finally figured out how to get my kit to do 4000 + at 49/50 RTL, took me ages to figure out how lol

 

I was running 3733 16-17-17-36 1T or something like that but I reset it when I put my system back into a case, I need to sell my dam test bench now cos I'm poor :(

I still struggle to get mine to train at 3600. I used that trick with RTL Init to stop RTL's from training way outside of typical range, but as far as actually optimizing them, I am completely at a loss. My ram is also on the absolute edge of stability where it is at, as even a single adjustment in tertiary timings leads to instability. As for raw clock speed/primary timings, i blame the large capacity of the DIMMS itself. Having that many chips that have to pass at the higher clocks is just too much. Going from 3600 C14, I can't even get 3800 C16 to work right on this kit. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, stconquest said:

Holy f*ck Lays.

 

...:ph34r:

 

1 minute ago, Dackzy said:

damn that is nice

 

The thing I like most about this board versus other ones I've used is, it makes memory overclocking stupid simple.  Mem OC is some of the most difficult / frustrating things you can do, but this bios and board make it stupid easy.

 

I've never had a board before that I could save a profile with near max OC on memory and have it boot everytime I apply that profile. 

All of the boards I've owned always had problems booting with crazy memory overclock profiles, I usually had to start at like 200 mhz lower to boot first, then apply the profile, or try posting 10 times to get it to work.   This one I can go from my 24/7 settings to BIOS and click apply on the profile, and it boots first try. 

Stuff:  i7 7700k @ (dat nibba succ) | ASRock Z170M OC Formula | G.Skill TridentZ 3600 c16 | EKWB 1080 @ 2100 mhz  |  Acer X34 Predator | R4 | EVGA 1000 P2 | 1080mm Radiator Custom Loop | HD800 + Audio-GD NFB-11 | 850 Evo 1TB | 840 Pro 256GB | 3TB WD Blue | 2TB Barracuda

Hwbot: http://hwbot.org/user/lays/ 

FireStrike 980 ti @ 1800 Mhz http://hwbot.org/submission/3183338 http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/11574089

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lays said:

 

 

The thing I like most about this board versus other ones I've used is, it makes memory overclocking stupid simple.  Mem OC is some of the most difficult / frustrating things you can do, but this bios and board make it stupid easy.

 

I've never had a board before that I could save a profile with near max OC on memory and have it boot everytime I apply that profile. 

All of the boards I've owned always had problems booting with crazy memory overclock profiles, I usually had to start at like 200 mhz lower to boot first, then apply the profile, or try posting 10 times to get it to work.   This one I can go from my 24/7 settings to BIOS and click apply on the profile, and it boots first try. 

Wow. I STILL have to do this on my ASrock Z170 Fatality ITX/AC. You make me regret going ITX x.x. Half of my profiles are basically primer profiles, lol. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lays said:

 

 

The thing I like most about this board versus other ones I've used is, it makes memory overclocking stupid simple.  Mem OC is some of the most difficult / frustrating things you can do, but this bios and board make it stupid easy.

 

I've never had a board before that I could save a profile with near max OC on memory and have it boot everytime I apply that profile. 

All of the boards I've owned always had problems booting with crazy memory overclock profiles, I usually had to start at like 200 mhz lower to boot first, then apply the profile, or try posting 10 times to get it to work.   This one I can go from my 24/7 settings to BIOS and click apply on the profile, and it boots first try. 

do they make a good X99 board? I want that so badly. Also long warranty is a huge plus for me, since my tech always fails on me

Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

Wow. I STILL have to do this on my ASrock Z170 Fatality ITX/AC. You make me regret going ITX x.x. Half of my profiles are basically primer profiles, lol. 

I have a profile with like 4000 12-11-11-28 1T 49/50 RTL 6/7 IOL and fully tight terts/seconds, it literally boots first try everytime lol

 

I just can't boot without a maxmem OS lol, otherwise BSOD on windows load and RIP OS 

Stuff:  i7 7700k @ (dat nibba succ) | ASRock Z170M OC Formula | G.Skill TridentZ 3600 c16 | EKWB 1080 @ 2100 mhz  |  Acer X34 Predator | R4 | EVGA 1000 P2 | 1080mm Radiator Custom Loop | HD800 + Audio-GD NFB-11 | 850 Evo 1TB | 840 Pro 256GB | 3TB WD Blue | 2TB Barracuda

Hwbot: http://hwbot.org/user/lays/ 

FireStrike 980 ti @ 1800 Mhz http://hwbot.org/submission/3183338 http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/11574089

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lays said:

 

 

The thing I like most about this board versus other ones I've used is, it makes memory overclocking stupid simple.  Mem OC is some of the most difficult / frustrating things you can do, but this bios and board make it stupid easy.

 

I've never had a board before that I could save a profile with near max OC on memory and have it boot everytime I apply that profile. 

All of the boards I've owned always had problems booting with crazy memory overclock profiles, I usually had to start at like 200 mhz lower to boot first, then apply the profile, or try posting 10 times to get it to work.   This one I can go from my 24/7 settings to BIOS and click apply on the profile, and it boots first try. 

I am no stranger to AsRock boards.  I have a low end Z77 Extreme III.  Working fine for 3 years now. 

 

I have also helped half a dozen friends build on AsRock boards.  No issues over the past few years.  Weird how the AsRock logo looks a bit like the ASUS logo, the lettering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dackzy said:

do they make a good X99 board? I want that so badly. Also long warranty is a huge plus for me, since my tech always fails on me

Their x99 usb 3.1 oc formula is OK, and I think their fatality killer one is too, it has 4 ram slots IIRC.  Rampage v extreme is much better though, but it also costs like 2x as much I think.

Stuff:  i7 7700k @ (dat nibba succ) | ASRock Z170M OC Formula | G.Skill TridentZ 3600 c16 | EKWB 1080 @ 2100 mhz  |  Acer X34 Predator | R4 | EVGA 1000 P2 | 1080mm Radiator Custom Loop | HD800 + Audio-GD NFB-11 | 850 Evo 1TB | 840 Pro 256GB | 3TB WD Blue | 2TB Barracuda

Hwbot: http://hwbot.org/user/lays/ 

FireStrike 980 ti @ 1800 Mhz http://hwbot.org/submission/3183338 http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/11574089

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lays said:

Their x99 usb 3.1 oc formula is OK, and I think their fatality killer one is too, it has 4 ram slots IIRC.  Rampage v extreme is much better though, but it also costs like 2x as much I think.

well I was thinking of getting the Asus Strix or sabertooth.

The max I will pay for a mobo is what the OC formula cost

Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, Dackzy said:

well I was thinking of getting the Asus Strix or sabertooth.

The max I will pay for a mobo is what the OC formula cost

Check hardwareswap UK and see if you can find a used rampage v extreme with a socket picture, that may be the best thing.

 

I had a friend with an X99 OC Formula and he had lots of problems, but he's also sort of a dumbass, so that may be why.. lol

 

The gigabyte soc champion is also a decent choice, I think it's pretty cheap still but I can't remember.

Stuff:  i7 7700k @ (dat nibba succ) | ASRock Z170M OC Formula | G.Skill TridentZ 3600 c16 | EKWB 1080 @ 2100 mhz  |  Acer X34 Predator | R4 | EVGA 1000 P2 | 1080mm Radiator Custom Loop | HD800 + Audio-GD NFB-11 | 850 Evo 1TB | 840 Pro 256GB | 3TB WD Blue | 2TB Barracuda

Hwbot: http://hwbot.org/user/lays/ 

FireStrike 980 ti @ 1800 Mhz http://hwbot.org/submission/3183338 http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/11574089

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

do they make a good X99 board? I want that so badly. Also long warranty is a huge plus for me, since my tech always fails on me

Sadly with X99, it's the CPU IMC holding you back 9 times out of 10, not really the board. They do have an X99 OCF board though. http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/X99 OC Formula3.1/

 

If I did X99 though, I'd have to get the X99 Taichi. http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/X99 Taichi/#Specification

 

That thing is just pure sex appeal. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Have any of you experience with EVGA boards?  I know they were always priced at a small premium, but with an EVGA warranty behind them that is a premium (`10%) worth paying.

 

They seemed to have dwindled  their mobo offerings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, stconquest said:

Have any of you experience with EVGA boards?  I know they were always priced at a small premium, but with an EVGA warranty behind them that is a premium (`10%) worth paying.

 

They seemed to have dwindled on their mobo offerings.

Have a buddy that owns a Z97 Classified. He absolutely loves his. Over-engineered (typical EVGA) but absolutely high quality. His ram is highly tweaked as far as timings go, but not record breaking like you see on ASrock boards. Basically, quality and stability (and looks extremely nice) with a strong CS to back it up. Would consider EVGA the luxury brand for boards, with performance taking a slight backseat as far as extreme overclocking goes. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, stconquest said:

Have any of you experience with EVGA boards?  I know they were always priced at a small premium, but with an EVGA warranty behind them that is a premium (`10%) worth paying.

 

They seemed to have dwindled  their mobo offerings.

They charge A LOT for what they offer IMO.  They do have great service and good quality boards, real stable from what I've heard.

The Z97/z170 classified were sooooo expensive, I think because of the PLX chip, but really it's not worth it for most users when cheaper boards that are more capable for certain things exist.

Stuff:  i7 7700k @ (dat nibba succ) | ASRock Z170M OC Formula | G.Skill TridentZ 3600 c16 | EKWB 1080 @ 2100 mhz  |  Acer X34 Predator | R4 | EVGA 1000 P2 | 1080mm Radiator Custom Loop | HD800 + Audio-GD NFB-11 | 850 Evo 1TB | 840 Pro 256GB | 3TB WD Blue | 2TB Barracuda

Hwbot: http://hwbot.org/user/lays/ 

FireStrike 980 ti @ 1800 Mhz http://hwbot.org/submission/3183338 http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/11574089

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

Sadly with X99, it's the CPU IMC holding you back 9 times out of 10, not really the board. They do have an X99 OCF board though. http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/X99 OC Formula3.1/

 

If I did X99 though, I'd have to get the X99 Taichi. http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/X99 Taichi/#Specification

 

That thing is just pure sex appeal. 

I have always hated that taichi board, I think it looks nasty. The OCF is right at the boarder of what I am willing to pay for a motherboard.

 

6 minutes ago, Lays said:

Check hardwareswap UK and see if you can find a used rampage v extreme with a socket picture, that may be the best thing.

 

I had a friend with an X99 OC Formula and he had lots of problems, but he's also sort of a dumbass, so that may be why.. lol

 

The gigabyte soc champion is also a decent choice, I think it's pretty cheap still but I can't remember.

well if you knew how Danish postal service are, then you would not dare to buy used from another country

Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, stconquest said:

PLX is a voltage control chip?

It is a PCIE lane multiplexer chip. Think of it as a chip that provides additional PCIE lanes when your CPU itself does not have enough. It was mostly used to make 3-4 way SLI possible on Z97 boards (and some Z170 boards). Now that 3-4 way SLI is being phased out, it's not really worth having. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, MageTank said:

It is a PCIE lane multiplexer chip. Think of it as a chip that provides additional PCIE lanes when your CPU itself does not have enough. It was mostly used to make 3-4 way SLI possible on Z97 boards (and some Z170 boards). Now that 3-4 way SLI is being phased out, it's not really worth having. 

I was just reading that, but I was not sure that was what Lays meant.

 

I don't know where I picked up that PLX made voltage control HW.  o.O

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

It is a PCIE lane multiplexer chip. Think of it as a chip that provides additional PCIE lanes when your CPU itself does not have enough. It was mostly used to make 3-4 way SLI possible on Z97 boards (and some Z170 boards). Now that 3-4 way SLI is being phased out, it's not really worth having. 

unless you run SLI/CF, m.2 NVMe, wifi card, sound card and other things

Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×