Jagged Shadows,Pop in,Low LOD and jagged aa

[Noirgheos]

22 minutes ago, DaoNayt said:

Witcher 3 looks almost OK for me, but you can try that. The worst for me is GTA V. 

I do have GTA V, but downloading 90+GB will take more than a day for me. I'll record some Witcher 3 gameplay.

[Noirgheos]

Corrected Version

 

 

Not the best quality, but any aliasing is still noticeable IMO, but it doesn't really look out of place.

[DaoNayt]

You gotta make the file/folder shareable, so I can open it.

[Noirgheos]

7 minutes ago, DaoNayt said:

You gotta make the file/folder shareable, so I can open it.

Should work now.

[DaoNayt]

Yea it looks the same as mine, from what I can see. But W3 doesn't look that bad. For me, the worst aliasing is in Crow's Perch, on all those buildings and the boards on the ground.

[Noirgheos]

58 minutes ago, DaoNayt said:

Yea it looks the same as mine, from what I can see. But W3 doesn't look that bad. For me, the worst aliasing is in Crow's Perch, on all those buildings and the boards on the ground.

Yeah the aliasing doesn't bother me as I feel like a move to 4K or even 1440p would solve most of it. It's more the shadow draw distance and some pop-in, but that seems to be pretty widespread.

[CanCeralp]

I have registered to write on this topic as it is a thing that took years from my life, too

 

But I believe I have a reasonable explanation, also understand why any dev or any AMD/Nvidia worker can not admit it and just say "everything looks fine". 

 

Before I say anything more. Could please someone whose PC has the problem, record an old game and share here. What I want is a game: 

 

1) Has Forward Rendering 

2) Has only MSAA as AA

3) DirectX 9 or lower. 

 

That could be GTA III, Assassin's Creed I, Oblivion, Half Life, even Age of Empires, etc. It's up to you. 

 

The videos we need; 

1) native resolution (hopefully 1080p) no AA 

2) native resolution 4x MSAA (could be 8x)

3) 1280x720 no AA 

4) 1280x720 4x MSAA (could be 8x, but same as step 2)

 

If those videos lack the pixel shimmering and lightning errors which you observe in the newer titles then I may have an explanation. If not, I'm simply wrong

 

I have an RX 480 with i5 6500. For my condition, I can clearly say there are 3 eras in game technologies. For me;

 

1) Assassin's Creed I and II 

2) Assassin's Creed Unity and Syndicate 

3) Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey 

 

Have completely different error levels with completely different anti aliasing solutions. 

[CaptainBlood]

You guys really need to reread my earlier post and read about temporal antialiasing methods and implementations and their faults.  Yes TAA looks worse than msaa especially depending on the software and its implementation of said taa.

 

Different drivers most certainly can cause different results.  However one thing is for certain...turn on taa and any time you put a 3e rendered scene in motion it will be susceptible to shimmering and flickers depending on the configuration of input turn speeds and motion matrix math.

[CanCeralp]

1 hour ago, CaptainBlood said:

You guys really need to reread my earlier post and read about temporal antialiasing methods and implementations and their faults.  Yes TAA looks worse than msaa especially depending on the software and its implementation of said taa.

 

Different drivers most certainly can cause different results.  However one thing is for certain...turn on taa and any time you put a 3e rendered scene in motion it will be susceptible to shimmering and flickers depending on the configuration of input turn speeds and motion matrix math.

I did. And I'm actually here to support you. I'm making a Youtube video about why this is a thing in especially in newer games. But first I wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page because I can't possibly think this is something happened in a night without users changing anything. What we are experiencing here is forms of specular aliasing, geometry aliasing and texture map aliasing combined. 

 

It's how rendering works and how the devs abuse Deferred Rendering methods using lower resolution textures, SSAO, Shaders, Effects etc. Nyquist's Theorem suggests we should at least get to the twice the resolution of the screen but in some areas and effects we go even lower than the screen resolution which only enhaces the aliasing and shimmering. 

 

Plus, probably negative LOD settings hard coded into drivers and even in GPUs will only make things worse, too. Both vendors offer FSAA through VSR/DSR but they don't expose LOD settings and this is another way of abusing the textures to sell more high resolution screens, like 4K. I even encountered an AMD officer who tells they can not nor will expose LOD settings for VSR, in AMD Community page. 

 

Back in the day SSAA + User controlled LOD bias was the best result. Now we have TAA, essentially the same thing for a static image. However I believe they force negative LOD for compansating the blur it introduces and this time the user has no choice or control. Add that the other problems and lack of the per game/per monitor optimizations, the results will of course dissappoint many people. 

 

What's worse is, the users has no solution here. Only the devs can fix this. A well implemented TAA is the only solution here but it leaves an era, full of error. That era begins with DirectX 10 and deferred rendering and ends with the introduction of TAA in every game. Everything in between will suffer forever. 

[CaptainBlood]

Excellent post!  I'll try and put some supporting info as well.  

[DaoNayt]

3 hours ago, CanCeralp said:

But first I wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page because I can't possibly think this is something happened in a night without users changing anything.

If you look at the very first post, this is exactly what happened. Theres a side by side comparison.

[CanCeralp]

2 hours ago, DaoNayt said:

If you look at the very first post, this is exactly what happened. Theres a side by side comparison.

The problem on the very first page is the one I'm focusing on. However there are other types of aliasing/erros, too. For example, in the previous page (111) Lonilele has posted 3 videos. Only the Batman Arkham Knight shows a shader aliasing, tied to the resolution insufficiency. The first video is about a bad choice of LOD transition by the developers, they should have checked their transition distance and building measurements. And the final video about Ansel is, well.. I don't know what to say about it. Nvidia is known for their shady things throughout the history. 

[Asasinas]

I envy to those who can enjoy games with TAA. I have massive flickering on objects even if the image is static. Nothing can remove or at least reduce it.

[CanCeralp]

38 minutes ago, Asasinas said:

I envy to those who can enjoy games with TAA. I have massive flickering on objects even if the image is static. Nothing can remove or at least reduce it.

TAA flickering only happens in extremely thin or repeating geometry, and even then it's rare. Flickering without TAA (like GTA V, AC Unity) is literally giving eye sickness to me. I have to stop and rest for every half hour just to stop my eyes from watering and burning. If I lived in the US, I would sue them, it's that bad. 

 

So, I would take TAA any day. The genius behind is god sent. 

[Strider890]

What is situation on the monitors above 1920x1080 resolution?

Is there changes or is same thing with jagged edges on monitors with 1920x1080 resolution?

[Asasinas]

8 hours ago, Strider890 said:

What is situation on the monitors above 1920x1080 resolution?

Is there changes or is same thing with jagged edges on monitors with 1920x1080 resolution?

My main gaming monitor is 1440p. Also have 4K TV. Both have massive jaggies, shimmering and other AA issues. So, in my case, the resolution has nothing to do with this problem. It can affect any monitor/tv with any resolution.

[DaoNayt]

You would probably need to use 8k downscaled to have 4k looking good.

[Bearhugger]

But it will still look 2D-like

[Strider890]

Some Arma 3 footage, sorry for no sound on the clip.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZXNgjYmMjSrCF_TmzGrOXkALvaQC9DiH

[I_dont_know200]

On 12/11/2019 at 3:22 AM, Asasinas said:

My main gaming monitor is 1440p. Also have 4K TV. Both have massive jaggies, shimmering and other AA issues. So, in my case, the resolution has nothing to do with this problem. It can affect any monitor/tv with any resolution.

Thats because a TV has bad ppi value, anyone tried it on a real 4k monitor with a usual size.

[Dzenan1111]

Well guys as the guy from Nvidia suggested earlier in this post,where He mentions the problem is more apparent when Anistropic Filtering and Anti Aliasing is turned on the problem becomes more apparent,well I went on and used Trilinear texture filtering instead of Anistropic Filtering and games do look better really,even though muddy you know because I use 4x anti aliasing,really there is no flickering that much or that kind of haze (like burning) of grass or trees,you know what I mean the shimmering to be more exact,and I also used by deafult Medium Settings in any game and games really really look better,so it can be that some settings really do conflict and cause these issues to be more apparent,what do you think guys ? 

[Harsh45]

The real problem here is the newly built or bought pc’s should work 100% normal,  graphically, and they don’t!  This idea that we should have to do this first or do that first is nonsense...  there is some sort of interference because even in stadia the anti aliasing is terrible,  Same with blade shadow and GeForce now.  Streaming games from a server and somehow they look terrible on my pc proves their is some sort of issue between the images being sent to me,  interference,  almost some kond of technical distortion of sorts.  

[Harsh45]

I wonder how vr looks,  I sold my vive but my gf bought us a quest for Christmas and I’ll test it as a stand-alone and in link as well,  I’ll post my findings after Christmas.

[tantalus]

On 12/9/2019 at 7:33 PM, Asasinas said:

I envy to those who can enjoy games with TAA. I have massive flickering on objects even if the image is static. Nothing can remove or at least reduce it.

Better than that losing my eyes due to shimmering. Also there are ways these days to sharpen graphics. Nvidia even introduced already a sharpen method in the panel control. Clearly designed for using in conjunction with TAA. They dont seem to be doing any efforts to solve shimmering problems, or lod problems, or bad shadow casting problems. Instead, they come up with cheap fixes, like this. Now people who complain about TAA being too blurry (im tired of using TAA and i dont see that excessive blurriness people talk about, sure there is a little blurr but its almost not noticeable depending on the game) have a way to sharpen the image. Of course all those games without possiblity of TAA will still be screwed. You can also use reshade to apply sharpen filters. Something i been doing since a long time ago.

 

And by the way, flickering has NOTHING TO DO with TAA. It will happen as well using any other of antialiasing form. And of course it happens without using antialiasing at all. As we said millions of times, these issues are not related to antialiasing. I dont know how many times we need to clarify this. We are talking about antialiasing as ways to aliviate that shimmering and all the other issues. But many people assume that those issues are produced by aliasing... it has nothing to do with it lol.

 

For me as as today, i basically did stop playing any videogames. I mean, its not worthy. I play only three or four games at most, and all of em are almost unplayable due to shimmering, so. Gaming for me is done. The only videogame i had left is euro truck simulator 2 and im about to quit because of the same problem. Sometimes it is just embarrasing how bad the game looks. The most funny thing is yo ugo to the official forums, and many people (of course the official forums are filled with ignorant and condescendent players) keep saying its normal due to ignorance. I just hope those are not the playerbase this game turns around because like other games, things will never change. Unfortunately. But well this is a specific case because the company behind this game is not doing anything since time ago to actually upgrade the game and introduce TAA or other features. The game keeps looking worst and worst in every update, but since playerbase of that game is completely blind, well, it will br a shimmering fest until the game dies (its already incredible that it survived so long already).

[tantalus]

On 12/19/2019 at 2:06 PM, Harsh45 said:

The real problem here is the newly built or bought pc’s should work 100% normal,  graphically, and they don’t! 

No. There is not a single reason a new pc should not have all these issues. But you would know this if you bothered to read the trillion pages since the thread was created. This is not about a broken piece of hardware or a faulty videocard. You guys still dont get it..