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Tim Sweeney believes that Microsoft will harm Steam with Windows 10 updates

Misanthrope

It looks like Microsoft is willing to potentially loose almost its entire customer base simply to destroy steam. Wow, what ever will we all do?

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Their plan is no longer to sell software. They want to sell service. This is what Nadella did on Azure and what they want to establish on the consumer side. 

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1 hour ago, rcole134 said:

It looks like Microsoft is willing to potentially loose almost its entire customer base

and go where?! Linux is not yet average joe friendly and linux devs haven't been developing this side of their distros

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17 minutes ago, zMeul said:

and go where?! Linux is not yet average joe friendly and linux devs haven't been developing this side of their distros

I was being sarcastic. 

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On 7/27/2016 at 0:36 AM, RagnarokDel said:

Do you know what statistically irrelevant is? Your mother is not every 46 years old women in the world.

But to be honest with the needs of most people being just a web browser, a word processor and music and movie player linux can probably fill most peoples need

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1 hour ago, zMeul said:

and go where?! Linux is not yet average joe friendly and linux devs haven't been developing this side of their distros

Certain distros are average joe friendly 

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1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

But to be honest with the needs of most people being just a web browser, a word processor and music and movie player linux can probably fill most peoples need

iOS 2.0/cupcake can fullfill most people's needs.

1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

Certain distros are average joe friendly 

Not really -- nowhere near OS X/Windows.

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2 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

iOS 2.0/cupcake can fullfill most people's needs.

Not really -- nowhere near OS X/Windows.

Maybe not as much as os x but maybe more so than windows

 

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On 26/07/2016 at 4:36 PM, Qub3d said:

I'm beta-testing an anti-ransomware service for malwarebytes, and it keeps flagging the CS:GO executable as ransomware... 9_9

So I found this new site called encrypts lotto... 

- snip-

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On 27/07/2016 at 0:04 AM, iwasaperson said:

1. I am a home user that uses Linux as their main OS.

2. Linux was not mentioned one time in that post, only UNIX.

3. macOS is a UNIX based OS, and that seems pretty damn relevant for the home market.

4. Chromebooks and Android are both Linux based. Again, pretty damn relevant.

5. SteamOS is based on Debian, so Valve definitely thinks it's relevant.

6. Ubuntu exists specifically to make using Linux easier for normal people ("Linux for human beings" used to be their slogan).

1: simply being on the forums kinda takes you out of the "home user"  category

 

A lot of prosumers/techies/big companies are trying to push to Linux, but on the average Joe front I can safely say roughly 10/75 kids in my grade have even heard of Linux, little own know how to use it. 

Linux has been the "in the backgtound"  OS for ages, with Windows and OSX being what people use. As much as I don't like it, there isn't going to be a shift for ages. 

- snip-

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Linus praised Tim Sweeny, saying, that he's a savvy guy, and then he said that Microsoft is trying to turn PC gamers into Xbox gamers.

 

Funny he should say that, because Tim Sweeny also praised the new consoles, Scorpio and Neo.

 

All consoles are closed platforms, every game has to be digitally signed by the console manufacturer, in order to run on the consoles.

 

So why is it, that Tim Sweeny is criticizing Microsoft for allegedly making Windows a closed platform, while in the same time praising Microsoft for project Scorpio, which is a closed platform.

 

 

Microsoft removing Win32? Seriously? Do you remember why Windows on ARM failed?

 

Also, Microsoft has made most of the WinRT APIs available to Win32 apps, and even DirectX12, so they're still committed to Win32.

 

There are even some WinRT APIs, which cannot run on UWP, they can only run on Win32, because they can only run outside the sandbox.

 

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/using-winrt-apis-from-desktop-applications

 

 

Also, the UWP platform isn't closed, because you can sideload apps.

 

Tim Sweeny says, that Microsoft can change their minds at any time, and prevent sideloading.

 

Microsoft could have also locked down Win32 as well. They could have made it so, that all executables, including Win32, could only run if digitally signed by Microsoft.

 

Microsoft could have done many bad things, whenever they wanted, but they didn't.

 

When it comes to sideloading, Microsoft has actually made it increasingly easy to sideload.

 

On Windows 8 you had to have a special developer license, on Windows 10 you don't need it anymore, on the latest Windows 10 stable build, sideloading is turned on by default, and Microsoft as announced, that on the anniversary update, you'll be able to just double click on appx files to sideload.

 

 

But let's ignore all this evidence, and instead make clickbait articles, because it's fun to bash Microsoft, right?

 

 

People have been criticizing Microsoft about this, since Windows 8 was announced in 2012, and they're still waiting for this evil plan to become a reality.

 

Most of the stupid things, that Microsoft did, were done either without warning, or when the warning was too late, and there was no time to fix the problem.

 

This time, Microsoft has 4 years of people jumping on forums, saying that they'll stop using Windows if it becomes a closed platform.

 

Under these circumstances, what do you think, that Microsoft is going to do.

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6 minutes ago, alextulu said:

 

So why is it, that Tim Sweeny is criticizing Microsoft for allegedly making Windows a closed platform, while in the same time praising Microsoft for project Scorpio, which is a closed platform.

people expect consoles to be closed platforms with fixed lifecycles.

 

pc is different. It's a set of industry standards which allow diverse hardware and software vendors to compete. Nobody has total control of the ecosystem and there are no gatekeepers. We judge pc by a different standard.

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Microsoft has worked many times with Valve, which also their offices are close to Microsoft ones.

Why would Microsoft impede Valve or Steam? The relationship between both companies are decently good. Heck, on Windows 10 reveal, Microsoft showed Steam on stage.

 

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40 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft has worked many times with Valve, which also their offices are close to Microsoft ones.

Why would Microsoft impede Valve or Steam? The relationship between both companies are decently good. Heck, on Windows 10 reveal, Microsoft showed Steam on stage.

 

That's irrelevant in business: kinda like how Apple and Samsung sue the fuck out of each other and out of court they still have a business relationship with Samsung manufacturing for them and such.

 

If it's good for business to undermine Steam they'd do it they're not gonna stop and say "But we're friends with le GabeN!"

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53 minutes ago, Humbug said:

We judge pc by a different standard.

This is not an excuse. Closed platforms are always bad.

 

You can't just say, that it's OK for consoles to be closed, just because for some generations all consoles have been closed.

 

You can't be for closed platforms and against them in the same time. You are either for or against.

 

Tim Sweeny just sounds like a hypocrite.

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1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft has worked many times with Valve, which also their offices are close to Microsoft ones.

Why would Microsoft impede Valve or Steam? The relationship between both companies are decently good. Heck, on Windows 10 reveal, Microsoft showed Steam on stage.

 

That and the fact that games is something they held onto when Apple decided to leave it aside,  since more than 20 years. Games always have been a vector of development for Windows.  They used directX to give an incentive people to upgrade to win7  and win 10 and they know that unlike console only players, pc gamers love their freedom and all of that revolves around bug companies like Valve.

 

@Misanthrope

They could try but it's bound to fail, unless they manage to buy steam (which is more than unlikely to happen). Why? Because pc gamers love steam or are at least accustomed to it. People bash origin and uplay all the time, which are in some ways equivalent to steam by the way (closed games source aside), but no one is being too harsh on steam.

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1 hour ago, laminutederire said:

 

@Misanthrope

They could try but it's bound to fail, unless they manage to buy steam (which is more than unlikely to happen). Why? Because pc gamers love steam or are at least accustomed to it. People bash origin and uplay all the time, which are in some ways equivalent to steam by the way (closed games source aside), but no one is being too harsh on steam.

I am not disputing that. They would probably decide that it's a bad business decision since it's bound to fail and decide against it because of that. All I was trying to say is that the fact that they have a "good" relationship with Valve at this time wouldn't factor in.

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7 hours ago, alextulu said:

So why is it, that Tim Sweeny is criticizing Microsoft for allegedly making Windows a closed platform, while in the same time praising Microsoft for project Scorpio, which is a closed platform.

Way to take his quotes out of context. Tim was excited that Sony and Microsoft were going to release new consoles this quickly. He specifically said that it was good because it was like the upgrade cycle of the PC. He was excited because it would bring modern hardware to console gamers without completely abandoning the current platforms users and developers.

He was excited that consoles were becoming a bit more like PCs (which I totally agree with). I don't really see why you would call him a hypocrite over that. Unless of course, you are making a strawman argument in a poor attempt to undermine valid skepticism and concerns.

 

There is also a HUGE difference between a console, which is designed for a very specific purpose, being locked down, and a general purpose computer which has been fairly open all of a sudden getting more closed down. People generally don't know what they had until it's gone, and they don't know what they are missing until they get a taste of it.

 

 

7 hours ago, alextulu said:

Also, the UWP platform isn't closed, because you can sideload apps.

There is more to "open vs closed platforms" than just "you can sideload or you can't".

Win32 will always be more open than UWP, because it is not bound by the same restrictions. Restrictions like all programs being sandboxed, or users not being able to modify the files.

 

 

7 hours ago, alextulu said:

Microsoft removing Win32? Seriously? Do you remember why Windows on ARM failed?

Because no apps.

That might not be the case in the future though. Sweeny never said he thinks Microsoft will completely kill win32 tomorrow. He specifically said that if Microsoft conveniences everyone to develop for UWP they would be able to kill Win32 over a long period of time.

 

 

7 hours ago, alextulu said:

Microsoft could have also locked down Win32 as well. They could have made it so, that all executables, including Win32, could only run if digitally signed by Microsoft.

Actually they couldn't. At least not on Windows 7 and 8 where users had control over updates.

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Because no apps.

That might not be the case in the future though. Sweeny never said he thinks Microsoft will completely kill win32 tomorrow. He specifically said that if Microsoft conveniences everyone to develop for UWP they would be able to kill Win32 over a long period of time.

Actually, it is impossible for Microsoft to kill Win32 apps.

If they do, A LOT of existing software will not work, Windows users aren't Apple where they have 0 problem buying a new version of all their software. Not to mention a lot of software can no longer exists.

  • Companies custom software will not run anymore.
  • System tweak tools cannot exists as, the least they do is access the registry, or communicates with windows, or communicates with memory of other processes, or communicates with drivers or hardware.
  • Driver software can not longer exists. Like above, it can't communicate with drivers.
  • All accessibility software cannot run, as it works by connecting itself to other software to read its content and do things, and inject content (speech to text, for example)
  • Software can no longer have DRM system.
  • Command line software will not work anymore. That means a massive number of company internal tools will not work anymore.
  • Can't have custom VPN system.

And more.

And that is why I find Tim Sweeney comments were idiotic in my opinion. He didn't think it through, to say the least.

 

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24 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Actually, it is impossible for Microsoft to kill Win32 apps.

If they do, A LOT of existing software will not work, Windows users aren't Apple where they have 0 problem buying a new version of all their software. Not to mention a lot of software can no longer exists.

  • Companies custom software will not run anymore.
  • System tweak tools cannot exists as, the least they do is access the registry, or communicates with windows, or communicates with memory of other processes, or communicates with drivers or hardware.
  • Driver software can not longer exists. Like above, it can't communicate with drivers.
  • All accessibility software cannot run, as it works by connecting itself to other software to read its content and do things, and inject content (speech to text, for example)
  • Software can no longer have DRM system.
  • Command line software will not work anymore. That means a massive number of company internal tools will not work anymore.
  • Can't have custom VPN system.

And more.

And that is why I find Tim Sweeney comments were idiotic in my opinion. He didn't think it through, to say the least.

 

But if you just make it more difficult for Direct3D win32 to run that would not affect the rest of the stuff and only impact gamers since well, Vulkan and Opengl are pretty rare.

 

Not that I am suggesting there's any validity to his conjecture as to why they would shoot themselves in the foot like that, but I don't think is technically impossible.

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What about software that uses Direct3D or Direct2D.. say like... Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Visual Studio, Firefox, Premier, AfterEffects, 3DStudio Max, PhotoShop, AutoCAD, Maya, Windows Media Player 12, console emulators, and LOTS more.

 

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Just now, GoodBytes said:

What about software that uses Direct3D or Direct2D.. say like... Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Visual Studio, Firefox, Premier, AfterEffects, 3DStudio Max, PhotoShop, AutoCAD, Maya, Windows Media Player 12, console emulators, and lots more.

All those are:

 

1) Done by Microsoft or

2) Not really hurt by becoming UWP apps

 

Only games have a vested interest in remaining win32 cause of steam, there really isn't as strong competing PC apps store that would make someone go "Hey! We don't wanna just go through your store!".

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8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

All those are:

 

1) Done by Microsoft or

2) Not really hurt by becoming UWP apps

 

Only games have a vested interest in remaining win32 cause of steam, there really isn't as strong competing PC apps store that would make someone go "Hey! We don't wanna just go through your store!".

It doesn't matter if they are made by Microsoft or not.. I was pointing to the fact that Microsoft can't slow down Win32 performance when using DirectX unless they are UWP. Also, Win32 packaged UWP are still Win32 apps.

And again, assuming they are converted to UWP, see my previous post on how Windows users aren't the type to be happy to purchase all their software again just to get the the UWP version.

 

And if you want a more complete list:

http://www.nvidia.ca/object/gpu-applications.html

(many uses DirectX)

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